Connor McDavid will go down as the 2nd best player of all-time

[dubey]

The likelihood he overtakes Lemieux for fourth is very small. It'll likely end up the Big Four. McDavid consensus 5th. Then the Beliveau/Harvey/Hull/Crosby/Hasek/Roy discussion for 6th.

He's clearly peaking below Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr. This is his first full season peaking at the Howe level. He's yet to match Howe's prime and not even in the same world longevity wise. That Howe was a substantially better defensive player than Gretzky/Lemieux/McDavid plays into it too.

The present gap between 4 and 5 is so large it feels weird to place anyone at 5. McDavid is the first name to fill that gap.

I skimmed through this thread and I feel like you're the only person that has actually watched the actual careers of these players. Could be wrong.

I'm only interested in knowing how much better McDavid is relatively to his peers, in comparison to Gretzky, Lemieux, etc. Not even sure how you qualitatively or quantitatively determine that.

Stats like this are interesting:

He really doesnt.

Howe's 6 Art Rosses by margin of victory

33.8%
30.3%
24.6%
20.9%
6.2%
4.7%

McDavid's 4 Art Rosses

25.0%
12.4%
7.0%
5.9%

McDavid is currently 28.4% ahead of Draisailt

Howe had 6 Harts and 12 times a finalist.

McDavid is about to win his 3rd Hart and will have been a finalist 5 times.

You can look at their VsX7s.
Howe: 125.5 (only behind Gretzky and Esposito)
McDavid: 104.5 (will be around 115 at the end of the year)

 

[Toene]

Is this a car?


Bingo. O6 stats are stupid.
Let's post another Hab that won 39 cups to show how bad McDavid is.

O6 stats may look stupid to people who lack knowledge and perspective. There was a larger proportion of canadian kids playing hockey than today with soccer, basketball and other sports getting more and more popular.

A 6-team league means the talent is incredibly condensed. Then you add the officiating. McDavid would have been targeted way more in those days. Look at the abuse Richard took.

Btw, Habs have won 10 cups since the expansion, two times more than anyone else.

 

[thaman8765678]

Impossible to compare players from different eras.

 

[gotcha90]

McDavid has never had anyone on par with Ovi and Malkin in his class. Those 3 guys had to contend with each other for those trophies, McDavid has less competition for his awards.

Here were the top producers in McDavid's Art Ross wins:

2016-2017: McDavid (100 points), Crosby (89 points), Kane (89 points)
2017-2018: McDavid (108 points), Giroux (102 points), Kucherov (100 points)
2020-2021: McDavid (105 points), Draisaitl (84 points), Marchand (69 points)
2021-2022: McDavid (122 points), Gaudreau (115 points), Huberdeau (115 points)

None of those guys even remotely compare to prime Malkin and Ovi. No one in the current NHL beyond McDavid is on par with prime Ovi and Malkin IMO.

McDavid has never had anyone on par with Ovi and Malkin in his class. Those 3 guys had to contend with each other for those trophies, McDavid has less competition for his awards.

Here were the top producers in McDavid's Art Ross wins:

2016-2017: McDavid (100 points), Crosby (89 points), Kane (89 points)
2017-2018: McDavid (108 points), Giroux (102 points), Kucherov (100 points)
2020-2021: McDavid (105 points), Draisaitl (84 points), Marchand (69 points)
2021-2022: McDavid (122 points), Gaudreau (115 points), Huberdeau (115 points)

None of those guys even remotely compare to prime Malkin and Ovi. No one in the current NHL beyond McDavid is on par with prime Ovi and Malkin IMO.

Kucherov ‘19 and Draisaitl ‘20 seasons are higher on an adjusted points basis than any of Crosby, Malkin or Ovechkin’s seasons. If those seasons overlap with Crosby’s early career he likely loses the trophies just as McDavid did. If we are going to adjust for Crosby's competition we should do the same for McDavid.

Career wise Crosby is clearly still ahead of McDavid. But both at age 26? Nah, no way I’m calling it close.

 

[psycat]

I think OP hit the nail on the head. Old players are mythologized and are reminisced on as being greater than they actually were. They were all greats, don’t get me wrong, but I think putting them on an untouchable pedestal takes away from the greatness of current players.

McDavid will go down as #3 in my books. I don’t care if he has to pass Orr and Howe to get there.

If only JFresh could time travel, he’d end all of these debates.

They are not untouchables at all in the sense you would have people believe they were just really damn great and hockey has been played for quite awhile so it's kinda logical the greatest players doesn't really have to be active at this very moment. That said McDavid is the best player I have seen since at the very least peak Jagr and probably even abit better than that and if he keeps up what he has been doing for a handful of more years he could very well be on his way to the top tier of all time greats.

Below Gretzky of course, he was just different and hey maybe part of it it was a perfect storm with the league scoring, time he entered, team etc but doesnt change that the things did happen. Just like there is probably a couple of players active now who would get way more talk being on winning teams. Then again McDavid in turn might have a favorable position if you compare him to Ovi/Crosby who had to compete with eachother and in lower league scoring enviorment, larger goalie pads etc+we have obviously seen their decline- perhaps McDavid will have "generational" longveity at his best aswell we just don't know yet.

Lemieux+Orr atleast have glaring "issues" with their careers so it's possible, although not likely, that McDavid could pass them based on overall career- matching them for peak is not something I see. But that would require a cup or two in addition to racking up a couple of more seasons like this one.

Can't really speak for Howe since I didn't see him play much.

Compare to another sport like say, the world's largest, football in which Pelé has been the more or less undisputed GOAT but that has just recently changed with Messi.

It's bound to happen sooner or later but that doesn't mean it have to happen today, in 10 or heck even 50 years but it will happen. Sooner or later you will have a player with both the talent and fortune to rival Gretzky and while McDavid is certainly up there he is not all that close for me, I mean if Oilers go on a 3 year cup spree and he racks up a couple of Smythe's + 3 more Harts after this one, who knows?

I remember 10 years ago on here when Crosby was "as good as a player can possibly be in todays league" and now McDavid have shown that was a false narrative. Imagine a player like McDavid that is simply abit better at utilizing his team mates and able to pot an extra assist every 3rd game or so and you have a real contender as long as that fictive player does it for a decade or so.

 

[6ix]

He’s honestly the most gifted player to ever play.

He’ll never touch Gretzky’s records but in terms of just pure hockey ability he has a very good case as being the most talented player ever.

It’ll be a “Big 5“ by the time his career is done.

You must not understand the word gifted. Lemieux was the most gifted, as he did what he did while smoking and not caring about diet.

McDavid is like someone who was generated in a lab. Unreal stamina, speed, athleticism. Extremely strict diet and training regime.

If McDavid lived Lemieux’s lifestyle he wouldn’t be what he is. So in terms on purely gifted Lemieux is #1

 

[Toene]

football in which Pelé has been the more or less undisputed GOAT but that has just recently changed with Messi.

OT but Pelé's reputation exceeds his actual talent.
The Rocket is one of the most iconic players, if not the most iconic of all-time, but nobody would suggest he's the goat in terms of play even if he indeed was great. Won a lot of trophies and had memorable playoff heroics, the hero of a people, etc.

 

[psycat]

You must not understand the word gifted. Lemieux was the most gifted, as he did what he did while smoking and not caring about diet.

McDavid is like someone who was generated in a lab. Unreal stamina, speed, athleticism. Extremely strict diet and training regime.

If McDavid lived Lemieux’s lifestyle he wouldn’t be what he is. So in terms on purely gifted Lemieux is #1

Sure smoking(not sure to which degree he did) is not great but people overexaggerate these things, for young athletes diet will only make a very very small difference(if any). Phelps for example had a monstrous diet but it didn't matter since he spent the energy. Might be taxing for organs etc in the long run but will hardly affect a man in his prime if he is physically active(as professional athletes tend to be). Ovi drank cola every game earlier in his career(maybe still does) etc.

I am not so sure any current NHL star would beat Gretzky in a sprint for example(there are vids on youtube of him running 100, or whatever, meters), certain very few would beat him in regards of stamina.

 

[psycat]

OT but Pelé's reputation exceeds his actual talent.
The Rocket is one of the most iconic players, if not the most iconic of all-time, but nobody would suggest he's the goat in terms of play even if he indeed was great. Won a lot of trophies and had memorable playoff heroics, the hero of a people, etc.

Perhaps, I weren't around to see him. Was just an example though, don't know how Richard entered the discussion but to me he is arguably the most overrated hockey player of all time but that's also off topic of course.

 

[ozzie]

Howe continues to fade from people's mind, recency bias. Every decade that passes, his accomplishments seem to be diminished. Only natural I guess. Seems to be happening faster than I thought.

From Bedard bending sticks like it's magic, to skates and equipment. It's really difficult to compare players anymore, with so many advances in the game and technology.

Howe is in the top 4, not only for his scoring feats (underappreciated), but for so many other things. The face of hockey for so long, longevity, mean on the ice and gentlemen off it. Not to mention 4 cups and would have won a few Smythes and Rockets, if those trophies had existed earlier. It's more than just his numbers.

I'm not exactly sure what McDavid would have to do, to break into the top 4. But he isn't passing Gretzky, Howe, Orr or Lemieux any time soon. I'm not saying he can't do it eventually.

Now for the controversial part. He isn't doing it without a cup or a career defining moment. Numbers and regular season awards won't be enough.

 

[tabness]

#2 after Bedard (and nobody remembers #2)

 

[ItWasJustified]

There is no era /time period/universe where a PRIME Mcdavid loses an Art Ross to Jamie Freaking Benn

Crosby had a higher PPG than Benn that season.

 

[HFpapi]

Howe continues to fade from people's mind, recency bias. Every decade that passes, his accomplishments seem to be diminished. Only natural I guess. Seems to be happening faster than I thought.

From Bedard bending sticks like it's magic, to skates and equipment. It's really difficult to compare players anymore, with so many advances in the game and technology.

Howe is in the top 4, not only for his scoring feats (underappreciated), but for so many other things. The face of hockey for so long, longevity, mean on the ice and gentlemen off it. Not to mention 4 cups and would have won a few Smythes and Rockets, if those trophies had existed earlier. It's more than just his numbers.

I'm not exactly sure what McDavid would have to do, to break into the top 4. But he isn't passing Gretzky, Howe, Orr or Lemieux any time soon. I'm not saying he can't do it eventually.

Now for the controversial part. He isn't doing it without a cup or a career defining moment. Numbers and regular season awards won't be enough.

See, for me I think it’s quite the opposite and that’s why I started the thread.

I don’t think Howe or anyone else is fading from peoples minds, and if they are, they need to educate themselves.

The reason I say it’s the opposite; I think we all need to open the door to our closed minds that it’s possible for someone to break up the “Big 4.” I mean, it has to be possible right, why wouldn’t it be? The question is only a matter of what it will take.

Since the big 4 became formalized, prob in the mid 90’s when Super Mario became solidified in that group, there’s been no need for that discussion. We didn’t know what it would take to start talking about a player being better than Howe or Orr or Mario we just know we hadn’t seen it yet. (or should I say better career since Connor is not “better” than Mario but I think can surpass his career).

Jagr, Hasek, and Crosby, and Ovi have all made top 10 arguments in recent memory but none were worth opening the door to the discussion of “what would it take to break up the big 4.”

Connor I think is beginning to open that door. You don’t have to agree, and maybe he doesn’t do it, but some in this thread seem to suggest there’s never a time to open that door. That’s ridiculous.

I think what McDavid is doing right now is worthy of suggesting he finishes higher than 5th all time and as high as second.

7-8 scoring titles, 5-6 MVP’s, 1800-2000 points. That’s my prediction for McDavid. Suggesting that’s a better career than Howe isn’t forgetting how good Howe was. On the contrary, to not be open to the idea that it is is simply mythologizing old legends.

 

[ozzie]

See, for me I think it’s quite the opposite and that’s why I started the thread.

I don’t think Howe or anyone else is fading from peoples minds, and if they are, they need to educate themselves.

The reason I say it’s the opposite; I think we all need to open the door to our closed minds that it’s possible for someone to break up the “Big 4.” I mean, it has to be possible right, why wouldn’t it be? The question is only a matter of what it will take.

Since the big 4 became formalized, prob in the mid 90’s when Super Mario became solidified in that group, there’s been no need for that discussion. We didn’t know what it would take to start talking about a player being better than Howe or Orr or Mario we just know we hadn’t seen it yet. (or should I say better career since Connor is not “better” than Mario but I think can surpass his career).

Jagr, Hasek, and Crosby, and Ovi have all made top 10 arguments in recent memory but none were worth opening the door to the discussion of “what would it take to break up the big 4.”

Connor I think is beginning to open that door. You don’t have to agree, and maybe he doesn’t do it, but some in this thread seem to suggest there’s never a time to open that door. That’s ridiculous.

I think what McDavid is doing right now is worthy of suggesting he finishes higher than 5th all time and as high as second.

7-8 scoring titles, 5-6 MVP’s, 1800-2000 points. That’s my prediction for McDavid. Suggesting that’s a better career than Howe isn’t forgetting how good Howe was. On the contrary, to not be open to the idea that it is is simply mythologizing old legends.

Whilst I don't disagree, you're right the door is open, that leads us into another ongoing thread's discussion. Does breaking into the top 4 require a Cup, or can it be done without a championship. McDavid is headed in the right direction, unbelievably so. Without a cup is he destined to be no greater than 5? I don't honestly know to be honest.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

Hockey seems to be only sport where players who had peak careers from over 30 year ago are somehow god like figures and none can be better than them.

Bro has never heard of baseball

 

[Felidae]

Honestly, I think the uptick in scoring has a lot to do with people elevating McDavid to a higher level than he already is (which is likely 5th best of all time)

Since 2018, with the exception of 2020, you'd have to go back to 2005 to find a similarly high scoring year, and these last 2 years in particular have been the highest scoring seasons since 1995. You know, the same year Jagr was 1 point shy of 150 points and Lenieux had 161 points in 70 games.

 

[HFpapi]

Whilst I don't disagree, you're right the door is open, that leads us into another ongoing thread's discussion. Does breaking into the top 4 require a Cup, or can it be done without a championship. McDavid is headed in the right direction, unbelievably so. Without a cup is he destined to be no greater than 5? I don't honestly know to be honest.

I’m not at all a cups >>>> everything person. It’s a 32 team league. I do however think (right or wrong) he’s going to need at least one to be taken seriously in the top 4 argument.

The best players in all sports have always led their team to a championship, it’s just the way it is.

Key word, lead your team. Don’t think it does much for anyone’s legacy to win as a veteran 3rd liner. He needs one in his prime. I think he gets it done.

Kind of an aside but this might be his best shot ever this season. Oil are playing good hockey and the West is wide open.

 

[blundluntman]

He's not better than Mario. He hasn't even eclipsed Bobby Orr in points and he was a defenseman... This is very premature and I doubt it happens. It'll be a big 5 when it's all said and done though.

 

[5cotland]

No he wont.

 

[Puckstop40]

I think he will end up in the top 4 when all is said and done. I can’t say it enough, what this guy does is nothing short of incredible.

 

[Mogo]

Lemieux
Orr
Gretzky

 

[93gilmour93]

He will never be better than 99 66 or 4

 

[GMR]

People make it sound like Lemieux played around 500 games in his career. He had twice that. Yes, his career had many physical setbacks but McDavid has a lower peak and prime than Mario. Lemieux did not have a short career. McDavid will end up with more points but many players scored more career points than Lemieux.

I see little argument so far that McDavid is a better player.

 

[v00d00daddy]

He's going to be winning another few 150+ point rosses/harts/lindsays

Umm he hasn’t won 1 yet.

Lemieux had 4 (more if you go ppg)
Gretzky had 9!!!!!

Cmd is amazing. Best player we’ve seen in a long time. I think he’ll end up better than anyone in the last 25 years.

But that doesn’t mean anything when you get into all time. He’s got a huge hill to climb to get into the Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux convo.

Some perspective for people who think cmd will be 2nd one say

Lemieux points per game- 1.88
CMD points per game- 1.47

Ummm…he has to get A LOT better to even come close.

 

[BigEezyE22]

There, I said it.

The big 4 has been mythologized and deified but it’s been fine since no player has made a compelling argument to question the sanctity of it until now.

Crosby made an argument for 5th best of all-time but even without losing those three seasons of his prime, I don’t think he was ever a serious threat to Howe/Orr/Super Mario.

McDavid is peaking higher than Howe right now. He’s simply a better player and I’m done pretending that he’s not. (Insert Joker meme).

Howe has legendary longevity but Connor has been very healthy and shows no signs of slowing down. Even if he doesn’t match Howes’ longevity (who can) I value the peak more.

Also, far be it for me to discredit the OG’s, we simply have to factor into the equation that Howe played in a 6 team league against almost exclusively Canadians. We simply have to acknowledge how much more competition McDavid has. He’s being trailed in the scoring race by a German, Russian, and Czech. That simply didn’t happen in Howes’ day.

Connor isn’t nor will he peak higher than Mario or #4 but neither player reached even 1000 games.

If McDavid wins 7-8 scoring titles and 5-6 MVP’s and plays 1400 games I think you have to put him number #2 all-time.

Either way, it’s incredible what we are witnessing right now.

Thoughts? Will McDavid be #2 of all-time when the dust settles?

You really think he'll be considered better than Gretzky?