Connor Bedard or Jack Hughes?

[Jersey Fresh]

Again that was on HF (and only a small portion). Go Google Laf for his scouting reports and you won't find any actual scouts calling Laf "generational" or best since McDavid/Crosby. Heck Hughes himself was viewed as a better prospect then Laf, Dalhin as well. Then go look at Bedard and what scouts say. Sorry Laf was never close to being as highly regarded by NHL scouts as Bedard.

Not true. If you go back to those threads, Lafreniere was viewed as a tier above Hughes. Granted, Hughes first year likely played into that.

And no one has intimated Lafreniere was viewed the same as Bedard. But he was viewed as the next closest thing to generational and has so far fallen well below those expectations - that’s the point. Not a comparison between the two.

 

[Video Nasty]

The penny pinchers are out in full force in the comments. Yeah, you often have to pay for the premium and not root around in the dollar store for more lower quality items that cost less.

 

[TBF1972]

These examples never make sense though.

Would I take Bedard at 12.25M? Yes sure, assuming he comes close to expectations.
If Hischier is then made available to my team at 7.25M - do I take him on top of Bedard? Absolutely I do.

The team who has Bedard at 12.25M isn't not going to sign/acquire Hischier at 7.5M if given the chance. If you need room on cap space, it's not the 2C position you sacrifice - maybe you have a crappier 5th and 6th D than the first team, or something else less critical.

This poll is strictly about Bedard vs Hughes.

cost effectiveness is valuable at every position. therefore player's contributing on elc like fox or makar have such a positive impact.

 

[Happyhary9]

Not true. If you go back to those threads, Lafreniere was viewed as a tier above Hughes. Granted, Hughes first year likely played into that.

And no one has intimated Lafreniere was viewed the same as Bedard. But he was viewed as the next closest thing to generational and has so far fallen well below those expectations - that’s the point. Not a comparison between the two.

Again threads, on HF after the fact of Hughes, first year. Hughes was the higher rated prospect going into the draft. Both were top prospects. But Hughes had the bigger upside then Laf.

Here for example is what THW say about both kids NHL potential going into the draft.
"Hughes projects to be a legitimate No. 1 center at the NHL level and could immediately slot into a top-six role from his first day with a team next season. He has the potential to not only be the best player on his team but also one of the top-five players in the entire NHL."

"It is very possible that Lafrenière will step right into the NHL next season with the team that drafts him. He could even start as a top-six winger. That being said, don’t hold expectations too high for the young player, look at 2019 first-overall pick Jack Hughes. Give him time, and expect him to eventually be a star in the league that could be a consistent 70-80 point player."

Laf had a lot of hype (media types) coming up, especially the French Canadian media. But by draft time the scouts had reservations on how big his upside was. He was viewed by most as a good #1 pick and a safe one. A lot of scouts felt he was good at pretty much everything but he really didn't have any individual skill that was elite. So again by actual scouts Laf was never viewed as close to "generational" at the time of his draft.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

Again threads, on HF after the fact of Hughes, first year. Hughes was the higher rated prospect going into the draft. Both were top prospects. But Hughes had the bigger upside then Laf.

Here for example is what THW say about both kids NHL potential going into the draft.
"Hughes projects to be a legitimate No. 1 center at the NHL level and could immediately slot into a top-six role from his first day with a team next season. He has the potential to not only be the best player on his team but also one of the top-five players in the entire NHL."

"It is very possible that Lafrenière will step right into the NHL next season with the team that drafts him. He could even start as a top-six winger. That being said, don’t hold expectations too high for the young player, look at 2019 first-overall pick Jack Hughes. Give him time, and expect him to eventually be a star in the league that could be a consistent 70-80 point player."

Laf had a lot of hype (media types) coming up, especially the French Canadian media. But by draft time the scouts had reservations on how big his upside was. He was viewed by most as a good #1 pick and a safe one. A lot of scouts felt he was good at pretty much everything but he really didn't have any individual skill that was elite. So again by actual scouts Laf was never viewed as close to "generational" at the time of his draft.

So you found a single report that supported your narrative and called it a day? That was not at all the be all and all, many other scouts were perfectly convinced by Lafreniere. Here’s another:

“A premier, point-producing machine of a forward. Extremely dangerous in one-on-one situations. Scores in a variety of ways. Brings the noise. Will be one of the rare wingers who will dictate everything. There’s little reason to believe he won’t immediately step into the NHL next fall and make an impact. A very worthy first-overall pick.”

I don’t agree whatsoever about the scouting consensus being Hughes > Lafreniere, and it’s even less true about the view on draft day on this site.

I don’t know why you keep banging on about anyone calling Lafreniere “generational” - no one has said that and it was the never the point being made when Lafreniere was brought up here.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

They're not, lol. Both are dynamic, puck handling offensive dynamos with slick skating, high IQ, and defensive game that needs to be polished when they both got drafted. And yes, the only "difference" between a generational first overall and a first overall who's probably gonna end behind McDavid, Matthews, Bedard in terms of first overalls in the last decade is the shot between the two aforementioned. People are getting shiny toy syndrome with Bedard to a tee and then going to crush the kid when he comes out and isn't a PPG player on Chicago's awful roster.

Bedard doesn't project to be a puck carrying center like Hughes, as he lacks Hughes' skating ability. Bedard obviously has the better shot, but I also think he has the better overall hockey sense. Not that Hughes lacks hockey sense, but Bedard sees the ice like Kucherov.

I think the difference in their skating and shooting will more or less net out, but I give the edge to Bedard because of that hockey sense.

But as I said earlier, there is still a lot of risk with Bedard, and it's almost certain that Hughes' contract will be a much better value.

 

[Happyhary9]

So you found a single report that supported your narrative and called it a day? That was not at all the be all and all, many other scouts were perfectly convinced by Lafreniere. Here’s another:

“A premier, point-producing machine of a forward. Extremely dangerous in one-on-one situations. Scores in a variety of ways. Brings the noise. Will be one of the rare wingers who will dictate everything. There’s little reason to believe he won’t immediately step into the NHL next fall and make an impact. A very worthy first-overall pick.”

I don’t agree whatsoever about the scouting consensus being Hughes > Lafreniere, and it’s even less true about the view on draft day on this site.

I don’t know why you keep banging on about anyone calling Lafreniere “generational” - no one has said that and it was the never the point being made when Lafreniere was brought up here.

Go back and look at a lot of threads, many posters have compared Laf to Bedard. Says stuff like Laf was viewed as the next best thing and yes many posters claimed he was viewed as generational as well and used HF posters to back that up.

The point is Laf and Bedard were not on the same level/tier of prospects going into their drafts. It really isn't all that close either.

You keep saying Laf was viewed on HF as better on Lafs draft. Who cares that is because HF overreacted to Hughes rookie year. When I say on draft day I am comparing what NHL scouts were saying on each kid in their respective draft year, as before they even stepped into the NHL. Hughes was viewed as a kid with bigger upside (more risk as well). I would bet if Hughes and Laf were in the same draft more teams would have chosen Hughes. They were very close as prospects, but the upside was bigger for Hughes.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

The penny pinchers are out in full force in the comments. Yeah, you often have to pay for the premium and not root around in the dollar store for more lower quality items that cost less.

But in this case you’re getting A5 Wagyu for a bargain bin price. Salary cap management is one of the most important parts of the modern game.

 

[Video Nasty]

But in this case you’re getting A5 Wagyu for a bargain bin price. Salary cap management is one of the most important parts of the modern game.

If only you and everyone liking similar posts weren’t all biased New Jersey fans who feel their time is here, you might be on to something.

 

[Happyhary9]

Bedard doesn't project to be a puck carrying center like Hughes, as he lacks Hughes' skating ability. Bedard obviously has the better shot, but I also think he has the better overall hockey sense. Not that Hughes lacks hockey sense, but Bedard sees the ice like Kucherov.

I think the difference in their skating and shooting will more or less net out, but I give the edge to Bedard because of that hockey sense.

But as I said earlier, there is still a lot of risk with Bedard, and it's almost certain that Hughes' contract will be a much better value.

What? Bedard is absolutely a puck carrying center. Man has Bedards skating gotten totally underrated. There is only one aspect of Bedards skating that isn't elite and that is high end speed, which is still very good and is still improving. It is his acceleration, balance and agility that makes him a great skater. And the fact that his hand and mind keep up with his feet. If anyone thinks that Bedard won't be a puck carrying monster, I have no clue what they have been watching, because they haven't been watching Bedard.

Here is a scout on Bedard carrying the puck.
"What separates Bedard from the rest is the speed at which he plays. That doesn't mean skating, although he is very quick on his feet. Rather, it's how fast he's able to process information and then act on it.

Bedard thrives when he's carrying the puck down the middle lane of the ice. He contorts his body, uses short strides and constantly changes the angles at which he holds the puck, almost cradling it like a lacrosse player. This hides his intentions and gives him the capacity to adjust to what's happening in front of him, and he does it all at full speed.

The conflicting information his body gives as well as the speed at which he pushes the pace make him exceptionally hard to defend. Defenders have little time to visually communicate with teammates and make decisions on how to play his rushes, and Bedard is cutthroat in exploiting them, changing his weight distribution in a flash and finding the smallest openings the second defenders expose them."

Just because you don't have elite high end speed, doesn't mean your not an elite skater. Athanasiou has elite straight line speed, but doesn't have elite speed with the puck. A great comparison for Bedard as a skater is Cale Makar. They might not have elite high end speed, but they have all the other aspects of elite skating and they play the game fast.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

If only you and everyone liking similar posts weren’t all biased New Jersey fans who feel their time is here, you might be on to something.

I’d like to hear some arguments for why Jack Hughes isn’t one of the very best players in the sport.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

What? Bedard is absolutely a puck carrying center. Man has Bedards skating gotten totally underrated. There is only one aspect of Bedards skating that isn't elite and that is high end speed, which is still very good and is still improving. It is his acceleration, balance and agility that makes him a great skater. And the fact that his hand and mind keep up with his feet. If anyone thinks that Bedard won't be a puck carrying monster, I have no clue what they have been watching, because they haven't been watching Bedard.

Here is a scout on Bedard carrying the puck.
"What separates Bedard from the rest is the speed at which he plays. That doesn't mean skating, although he is very quick on his feet. Rather, it's how fast he's able to process information and then act on it.

Bedard thrives when he's carrying the puck down the middle lane of the ice. He contorts his body, uses short strides and constantly changes the angles at which he holds the puck, almost cradling it like a lacrosse player. This hides his intentions and gives him the capacity to adjust to what's happening in front of him, and he does it all at full speed.

The conflicting information his body gives as well as the speed at which he pushes the pace make him exceptionally hard to defend. Defenders have little time to visually communicate with teammates and make decisions on how to play his rushes, and Bedard is cutthroat in exploiting them, changing his weight distribution in a flash and finding the smallest openings the second defenders expose them."

Just because you don't have elite high end speed, doesn't mean your not an elite skater. Athanasiou has elite straight line speed, but doesn't have elite speed with the puck. A great comparison for Bedard as a skater is Cale Makar. They might not have elite high end speed, but they have all the other aspects of elite skating and they play the game fast.

Bedard is certainly a terrific skater, but he lacks the top end speed necessary to be a world class transporter of the puck. When I say he won't be a puck carrying center like Hughes I mean that he won't be able to seemlessly transport the puck through all 3 zones like Hughes does. Very few centers are able to do this as well as Hughes (Eichel, McDavid, Mackinnon). Bedard will still be very competent at that aspect of the game, just like Hughes is a very competent sniper when he needs to be. But I don't think he will be in that elite category of centers when it comes to that ability.

 

[Video Nasty]

I’d like to hear some arguments for why Jack Hughes isn’t one of the very best players in the sport.

Not interested in making them. This is about how Bedard is better and it’ll be fairly easy to spot from as early as his first game.

 

[Happyhary9]

Bedard is certainly a terrific skater, but he lacks the top end speed necessary to be a world class transporter of the puck. When I say he won't be a puck carrying center like Hughes I mean that he won't be able to seemlessly transport the puck through all 3 zones like Hughes does. Very few centers are able to do this as well as Hughes (Eichel, McDavid, Mackinnon). Bedard will still be very competent at that aspect of the game, just like Hughes is a very competent sniper when he needs to be. But I don't think he will be in that elite category of centers when it comes to that ability.

That is one aspect of carrying the puck. Yes Hughes transitions faster, but Bedard is the better puck carrier inside the O zone. Pure speed has gotten so overrated since McDavid. It is more then just pure speed, McDavid is elite at other aspects as well. Bedard is much more of a puck carrying center like Crosby, were it isn't all about pure speed.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

That is one aspect of carrying the puck. Yes Hughes transitions faster, but Bedard is the better puck carrier inside the O zone. Pure speed has gotten so overrated since McDavid. It is more then just pure speed, McDavid is elite at other aspects as well. Bedard is much more of a puck carrying center like Crosby, were it isn't all about pure speed.

Certainly, and it was the aspect I was referring to. Perhaps I should have been more clear in my comment. Bedard is an extremely effective o-zone puck carrier, using his quickness and balance extremely well. His lateral mobility is really fantastic.

But the ability to transport the puck across all three zones is really what I meant to highlight, and it's an incredibly important part of the game, especially for centers. Bedard will be an elite o-zone puck carrier, but I don't think he will an elite transporter.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

Not interested in making them. This is about how Bedard is better and it’ll be fairly easy to spot from as early as his first game.

Lol, okay bud. I remember when Lafreniere was a can’t miss top line stud, NHL ready, better prospect than Hughes according to many on here.

It will never not be silly to be 100% certain that a guy with zero NHL games will be a 100+ point player. At least let him get through a couple games.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

bedards shot and hockey iq is higher then Jack Hughes so him

so if Bedard becomes what people expect him to and gets paid what he should around 13-15m in 3 years. will Bedard be 6-7m better than Hughes?

 

[Jersey Fresh]

Go back and look at a lot of threads, many posters have compared Laf to Bedard. Says stuff like Laf was viewed as the next best thing and yes many posters claimed he was viewed as generational as well and used HF posters to back that up.

The point is Laf and Bedard were not on the same level/tier of prospects going into their drafts. It really isn't all that close either.

I don't know why I keep repeating it, but no one has said Lafreniere and Bedard were on the level as prospects, nor was that the point in discussing Lafreniere in this thread. The utility in discussing Lafreniere with Bedard in the context of this thread has exactly zero to do with comparing them as prospects.

Lafreniere was viewed as "the next best thing" though, and well...

You keep saying Laf was viewed on HF as better on Lafs draft. Who cares that is because HF overreacted to Hughes rookie year. When I say on draft day I am comparing what NHL scouts were saying on each kid in their respective draft year, as before they even stepped into the NHL. Hughes was viewed as a kid with bigger upside (more risk as well). I would bet if Hughes and Laf were in the same draft more teams would have chosen Hughes. They were very close as prospects, but the upside was bigger for Hughes.

I'm not self-limiting to HF - I'm saying on both HF and the wider scouting community Lafreniere was viewed more highly than Hughes.

I agree on the "HF overreacting" part. For all we know, the cycle is repeating with Bedard.

 

[Video Nasty]

so if Bedard becomes what people expect him to and gets paid what he should around 13-15m in 3 years. will Bedard be 6-7m better than Hughes?

Yes because he will generate far more revenue in his market than Hughes in his. Hence why within a day of being drafted, the Blackhawks sold “$5.2 million in new ticket packages including 1200 full season packages.” Before you come at me with the salary cap and on ice performance, you need to remember that off ice influence is factored into contracts as well.

 

[MasterofGrond]

Yes because he will generate far more revenue in his market than Hughes in his. Hence why within a day of being drafted, the Blackhawks sold “$5.2 million in new ticket packages including 1200 full season packages.” Before you come at me with the salary cap and on ice performance, you need to remember that off ice influence is factored into contracts as well.

Ok, but as a fan I don't care about that. What I care about is winning games. Do you own a portion of the Blackhawks?

 

[Video Nasty]

Ok, but as a fan I don't care about that. What I care about is winning games. Do you own a portion of the Blackhawks?

Do you win the game?

 

[Happyhary9]

Certainly, and it was the aspect I was referring to. Perhaps I should have been more clear in my comment. Bedard is an extremely effective o-zone puck carrier, using his quickness and balance extremely well. His lateral mobility is really fantastic.

But the ability to transport the puck across all three zones is really what I meant to highlight, and it's an incredibly important part of the game, especially for centers. Bedard will be an elite o-zone puck carrier, but I don't think he will an elite transporter.

I think you are vastly overeating speed, as a major factor in carrying the puck through the neutral zone. Sure might get a an extra odd man rush 1/2 times game, but 95% of the time it is about gaining the blue line and then allowing time to set up your offense. Bedard will be an elite puck carrier throught the neutral, just like Crosby was, because his ability to gain the blueline and set up the offense.

Basically if someone asked me who do you want to carrier the puck through the neutral zone Crosby or Hughes? I am taking Crosby, ya Hughes may give you a slightly higher chance of a odd man rush, but Crosby will lead to more sustained offense.

 

[waitin425]

As much as a mystery box as Bedard is, there is probably only one player I wouldn't trade for him and that's McDavid. Bedards ceiling is just under the other Connor, and that is well above Hughes.

 

[MasterofGrond]

Do you win the game?

No, but I get more personal enjoyment out of the team winning games than I do out of the team making money. I don't think that's a unique position.

That might not be true for you, I guess. It's not impossible you get your enjoyment from people who aren't you making money.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I think you are vastly overeating speed, as a major factor in carrying the puck through the neutral zone. Sure might get a an extra odd man rush 1/2 times game, but 95% of the time it is about gaining the blue line and then allowing time to set up your offense. Bedard will be an elite puck carrier throught the neutral, just like Crosby was, because his ability to gain the blueline and set up the offense.

Basically if someone asked me who do you want to carrier the puck through the neutral zone Crosby or Hughes? I am taking Crosby, ya Hughes may give you a slightly higher chance of a odd man rush, but Crosby will lead to more sustained offense.

I will just say there's a reason all the best puck transporters are world class skaters. Eichel, McDavid, Mackinnon, Hughes, Stutzle, Barzal, Point etc. Young Crosby was dynamite through the neutral zone but after that high ankle sprain he lost a step and I don't think he ever recovered.