Proposal: Colorado All In (PHI/ARI)

[Ice Mammoth]

You might think you can get that from another team. I'd say good luck to you. It would be stupid for Colorado to do that.

I think Bill will try to get it.
Insiders voiced the equivalent of 3 1st.
Other insiders upped the ante.
Approximately it wants Arizona (+-).
What team will this deal be with? I do not know.
Is it possible to get?
Everything can be.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Flyers will want an unprotected 1st rounder for Giroux.

And I want to date Margot Robbie.

 

[Spilot23]

Not certainly in that way.
I wrote: “Chychrun = Newhook, Olausson, 1st 2023”
Chychrun = Newhook, Olausson (OA28), 1st 2023 (OA22-32) = 3 1st.
Is salary withholding not necessary? OK.

I think Colorado should go all in.
Analysis of changes in teams speaks of this.

Judging by your profile picture, you are a Colorado fan.
I think it is your right to decide which position needs to be strengthened.
I think it's your right to decide what price to pay for it.
There is one more person who can decide (JS).

I watched very few Colorado games this season.
Of course, I could be wrong about Colorado's needs.

It's alright man everyone can have his opinion it's a forum after all my guy

I have watched every game of the season and to me the glaring needs is what I said it is which is a 4th line and goaltending. Jost isn't suited for bottom 6 role he can't win battles in the boards, he doesn't produce and can win faceoffs (37.8% this year yikes). Helm isn't fast anymore, is weak in the PK and I don't like his effort at all compared to a guy we had in Calvert. Maltsev looked awesome last game in his place. Compher is widely inconsistant to me he's a wild card between keeping him as a 4th liner or shipping anywhere but somehow is the first one getting top 6 minute when someone is injured

If we go all in and that means gutting the future I would rather target a great goalie first then another top 6 forward that would be an upgrade to Nuke or Bura. I would prefer Nuke as a 3rd liner he's the prototype to be one of the best bottom 6 player in the league. This defense wouldn't even be in the discussion if we had a competent goalie. Last year Grubs had Vezina numbers behind that defense. The 3rd pairing in JJ and Murray could need an upgrade though that's why I proposed a guy like Chiarot which wouldn't gut our future and would help us fix the other holes this team has.

 

[Larry Hanson]

Arizona only has 1 retention slot left this year and I would imagine that is reserved for a Kessel trade. I can't see Arizona using that up as a 3rd party retention unless they get an overpayment (ie. Kessel value).

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Would be best to get a goalie that doesn't suck. The Avs won't win anything no matter how stacked they get with bad goaltending.

If only it were that simple. The guy with the 3rd best SV% in the NHL over the last 3 seasons appeared to not suck, so we gave up a 1st + Timmins for him. Now, he's 16-5-1 but apparently sucks...

 

[95snipes]

Your excuse making for goalies is epic. Based on what you say, one might assume that there's no such thing as a good or a bad goalie. They're all the same and merely a reflection of the defense.

Outside of the top dogs, I don't think that's crazy far from the truth. Or did Frederick Anderson magically become an elite goalie this offseason?

Besides, what goalies would be such an upgrade on Kuemper that it is worth giving up a 1st round pick or equivalent prospect +?

Vasilevskiy
Gibson
Saros
Shesterkin
Hellebuyck
Maybe Markstrom
Maybe Demko
Maybe a few other guys I'm forgetting

And how many of these guys are actually remotely available? I'm guessing none.

Sakic, the most patient GM to ever walk earth, gave up a 1st round pick for the first time in his almost 10 year tenure this offseason. Probably the most value he's ever given up (as a buyer in the trade). We are going to ride or die with Kuemper IMO.

The only options I could see are Varlamov or MAF. I'm not convinced either are huge upgrades.

MAF probably will cost a first round pick. A notorious playoff choker. King of softies. If we have the option to trade for Giroux or MAF, and we choose Fleury, I might have to see a psychiatrist.

 

[howboutahug]

“Colorado All In“ – this is my option.

This is a 75% deal template.
There may be additions on both sides.
Arizona's main interest is Alex Newhook + Justin Barron.
Colorado's main interest is Jakob Chychrun + @50% ret.

Colorado Avalanche
Lawson Crouse - $1,533,333
Jakob Chychrun - $2,300,000 (@ 50% ret).
TOTAL - $3,833,333

Arizona Coyotes
Alex Newhook - $908,333
J.T. Compher - $3,500,000
TOTAL - $4,408,333
+
Justin Barron - non-roster
Oskar Olausson - non-roster
1st 2023
2nd 2023
3rd 2022

Deal explanations:

Chychrun = Newhook, Olausson, 1st 2023
@ 50% ret = Barron
J.T. Compher = this is a gift.

Crouse = 2nd 2023 + 3rd 2022
Can be removed from the deal at Colorado's will.

So 4 1st round picks for Chychrun and retention. No thanks.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Outside of the top dogs, I don't think that's crazy far from the truth. Or did Frederick Anderson magically become an elite goalie this offseason?

Besides, what goalies would be such an upgrade on Kuemper that it is worth giving up a 1st round pick or equivalent prospect +?

Vasilevskiy
Gibson
Saros
Shesterkin
Hellebuyck
Maybe Markstrom
Maybe Demko
Maybe a few other guys I'm forgetting

And how many of these guys are actually remotely available? I'm guessing none.

Sakic, the most patient GM to ever walk earth, gave up a 1st round pick for the first time in his almost 10 year tenure this offseason. Probably the most value he's ever given up (as a buyer in the trade). We are going to ride or die with Kuemper IMO.

The only options I could see are Varlamov or MAF. I'm not convinced either are huge upgrades.

MAF probably will cost a first round pick. A notorious playoff choker. King of softies. If we have the option to trade for Giroux or MAF, and we choose Fleury, I might have to see a psychiatrist.

Beyond just the point you're making, which of these "better" guys would definitely stay healthy in Denver? I'm much more concerned about injuries causing problems again than I am about a few bad games from Kuemper.

 

[rt]

You might think you can get that from another team. I'd say good luck to you. It would be stupid for Colorado to do that.

That guy is not a coyotes fan.

 

[JoemAvs]

Hell no from the Avs.

Thats just stupid.

Sakic will hopefully stand pat and see what we have in the playoffs and then deal with in the offseason.

These all-in moves mortgaging everything moves are so braindead and seem to becoming a staple on hfAvs unfortunately.
Thankfully Sakic is not as dumb as Avs fans on here.


The only thing Sakic should look into is whether Fleury can be gotten for cheap if he is as unconvinced with Kuemper as I am.

But giving up a ton for the likes of Giroux or Crouse?
Pure stupidity.

 

[John Mandalorian]

That guy is not a coyotes fan.

He's a Bill Armstrong fan.

 

[dahrougem2]

Holy batman that is a bad trade for the Avalanche. All of that for Lawson Crouse?

 

[95snipes]

Hell no from the Avs.

Thats just stupid.

Sakic will hopefully stand pat and see what we have in the playoffs and then deal with in the offseason.

These all-in moves mortgaging everything moves are so braindead and seem to becoming a staple on hfAvs unfortunately.
Thankfully Sakic is not as dumb as Avs fans on here.


The only thing Sakic should look into is whether Fleury can be gotten for cheap if he is as unconvinced with Kuemper as I am.

But giving up a ton for the likes of Giroux or Crouse?
Pure stupidity.

Agree. Why try to win a Stanley Cup. We only have the second best player in the league on the best value contract. The best defenseman in the league.

We should stand pat and watch all of our opponents get better. In the off season we can then be in on all of the best free agents but not actually sign them. But in 5 years we'll still have our assets! Just no Cup to show for it.

God no to MAF.

 

[JoemAvs]

Agree. Why try to win a Stanley Cup. We only have the second best player in the league on the best value contract. The best defenseman in the league.

We should stand pat and watch all of our opponents get better. In the off season we can then be in on all of the best free agents but not actually sign them. But in 5 years we'll still have our assets! Just no Cup to show for it.

God no to MAF.

We are already trying to win a Stanley Cup.

Its so goddamn stupid that hfAvs seems to believe that if you don't trade all your picks and prospects, you are not trying enough.
Thats just pure stupidity.
Kadri is like 10th in scoring right now. So why on earth should the Avs sacrifice a 1st ++ for Giroux?
Do you honestly believe that the Avs lack scoring right now?

I don't know whats wrong with Avs fans on here. The Avs are a legit contender as it is right now. I don't think Kuemper has what it takes to win us a cup and the odds are always against you in the playoffs anyways. But there is basically 0 reason to mortgage the future right now. Your odds don't significantly improve by adding a Giroux or a Crouse. They just don't. So why do it?
Your roster is arguably still worse than Tampa and your goaltending is still a big questionmark. Not to mention that our injury history (and now with Byram questionable the D looks all of a sudden a bit iffy again considering that EJ/Murray are always an injury waiting to happen) usually does not bode well.

So why on earth would you trade the farm away for pieces that won't really make a difference? Just to pat yourself on the back that you tried your best? How stupid is that?

The Avs have around a 10-12 % chance at best at winning a Stanley Cup this year. Adding a PK 4th liner at the deadline and some goaltending insurance that can be gotten for lesser picks or prospects like Kaut or Bowers makes some sense for Sakic.
What really does not make any sense at all is the garbage that so many Avs fans on here seem to believe that the Avs really need to make some sort of huge move and mortgage our future.

 

[95snipes]

I disagree and think they DO make a difference, in a very big way.

Giroux - Instantly 3rd best forward on the team and still one of the best players in the league. Adds security at center if needed.
Crouse - adds size/matchup/toughness and improves PK

Landeskog-MacKinnon-Rantanen
Giroux-Kadri-Burakovsky
Nichuskin-Newhook-Crouse
NAK-X-LOC

I don't see many teams being able to match up to that at all. Our defense is set for the most part we just need a 5/6 type that can PK. And we made our bed in net.

The odds we play Tampa are very small and they are not as good as last year.

Facts are we have 0 2nd line players signed for next year and 0 goaltenders signed for next year. Kadri and Burakovsky likely price themselves out of Denver. Now is a sensible time to go for it.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

We are already trying to win a Stanley Cup.

Its so goddamn stupid that hfAvs seems to believe that if you don't trade all your picks and prospects, you are not trying enough.
Thats just pure stupidity.
Kadri is like 10th in scoring right now. So why on earth should the Avs sacrifice a 1st ++ for Giroux?
Do you honestly believe that the Avs lack scoring right now?

I don't know whats wrong with Avs fans on here. The Avs are a legit contender as it is right now. I don't think Kuemper has what it takes to win us a cup and the odds are always against you in the playoffs anyways. But there is basically 0 reason to mortgage the future right now. Your odds don't significantly improve by adding a Giroux or a Crouse. They just don't. So why do it?
Your roster is arguably still worse than Tampa and your goaltending is still a big questionmark. Not to mention that our injury history (and now with Byram questionable the D looks all of a sudden a bit iffy again considering that EJ/Murray are always an injury waiting to happen) usually does not bode well.

So why on earth would you trade the farm away for pieces that won't really make a difference? Just to pat yourself on the back that you tried your best? How stupid is that?

The Avs have around a 10-12 % chance at best at winning a Stanley Cup this year. Adding a PK 4th liner at the deadline and some goaltending insurance that can be gotten for lesser picks or prospects like Kaut or Bowers makes some sense for Sakic.
What really does not make any sense at all is the garbage that so many Avs fans on here seem to believe that the Avs really need to make some sort of huge move and mortgage our future.

I think it's because LaCroix always traded every pick/prospect for short term pieces and had success, so they think that's the only way to do it. But, the salary cap era is a different animal and you can't ignore the draft as a very important tool to build a contender like you could just spend a ton more than everyone else on a team full of stars. I agree with you and think a few complimentary pieces are all we really need to have a decent chance this year, assuming a lot of other things go right (aka everyone staying healthy).

 

[Patagonia]

Not certainly in that way.
I wrote: “Chychrun = Newhook, Olausson, 1st 2023”
Chychrun = Newhook, Olausson (OA28), 1st 2023 (OA22-32) = 3 1st.
Is salary withholding not necessary? OK.

I think Colorado should go all in.
Analysis of changes in teams speaks of this.

Judging by your profile picture, you are a Colorado fan.
I think it is your right to decide which position needs to be strengthened.
I think it's your right to decide what price to pay for it.
There is one more person who can decide (JS).

I watched very few Colorado games this season.
Of course, I could be wrong about Colorado's needs.

No chance AVs would be interested in moving this many pieces for Chychrun. They already have LHDs Toews, Girard and Byram (if he returns).

AVs Board discussed moving Girard to fill needs for 2C or G. Graves already moved to open LHD space. Why would they consider another LHD?

It’s not happening. AVs might offer 2 - 2nds ie. Toews deal.

 

[95snipes]

I think it's because LaCroix always traded every pick/prospect for short term pieces and had success, so they think that's the only way to do it. But, the salary cap era is a different animal and you can't ignore the draft as a very important tool to build a contender like you could just spend a ton more than everyone else on a team full of stars. I agree with you and think a few complimentary pieces are all we really need to have a decent chance this year, assuming a lot of other things go right (aka everyone staying healthy).

The best Cup winners of the cap era made a big move to put themselves over the top:

Ducks/Pronger
Hawks/Hossa
Kings-Carter/Richards
Penguins/Kessel
Lightning-Gave up three 1st rounders over past two years (Goodrow/Coleman/Savard)

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

The best Cup winners of the cap era made a big move to put themselves over the top:

Ducks/Pronger
Hawks/Hossa
Kings-Carter/Richards
Penguins/Kessel
Lightning-Gave up three 1st rounders over past two years (Goodrow/Coleman/Savard)

And the Avs just gave up a 1st + Timmins for Kuemper after recently trading 2 2nds for Toews, Barrie+Kerfoot for Kadri and a 2nd + 3rd for Burakovsky. So, we should be good, right?

 

[AslanRH]

The best Cup winners of the cap era made a big move to put themselves over the top:

Ducks/Pronger
Hawks/Hossa
Kings-Carter/Richards
Penguins/Kessel
Lightning-Gave up three 1st rounders over past two years (Goodrow/Coleman/Savard)

Savard was a luxury due to Kucherov space.

The rest if I recall correctly were multi-year players.
It is unlikely Giroux would be re-signed.
I don't know if Crouse is worth the cost currently being discussed generally on these boards.
I've been adamant about my disdain for Compher, but I don't think Crouse is enough of an upgrade there to warrant those futures.

 

[95snipes]

Savard was a luxury due to Kucherov space.

The rest if I recall correctly were multi-year players.
It is unlikely Giroux would be re-signed.
I don't know if Crouse is worth the cost currently being discussed generally on these boards.
I've been adamant about my disdain for Compher, but I don't think Crouse is enough of an upgrade there to warrant those futures.

That is fair regarding the contract status.

 

[John Mandalorian]

Savard was a luxury due to Kucherov space.

The rest if I recall correctly were multi-year players.
It is unlikely Giroux would be re-signed.
I don't know if Crouse is worth the cost currently being discussed generally on these boards.
I've been adamant about my disdain for Compher, but I don't think Crouse is enough of an upgrade there to warrant those futures.

Crouse is worth getting but for picks - not prospects.

 

[nightonthesun]

Crouse is worth getting but for picks - not prospects.

Not Barron or Olausson, but maybe Helleson and a late pick. If that's too low for the Yotes, then they can dance with someone else. But everything I've read about Crouse suggests he has some interesting things to bring to the table.

 

[Dead Coyote]

Not Barron or Olausson, but maybe Helleson and a late pick. If that's too low for the Yotes, then they can dance with someone else. But everything I've read about Crouse suggests he has some interesting things to bring to the table.

If your biggest need, or one of them, as other users in this thread have posted, is a depth forward who plays defensively, is gritty, goes to the corners, and has some offensive talent, then you should absolutely be all over Crouse. If you're playing him intentionally on a 3rd or 4th line he's gonna overproduce and over impress.

If you think you can sign him for under 2.5 - 3m, then he's going to be worth even more.

And if you believe he has the potential to grow into a Couturier type player, well, you're probably going to be willing to overpay a bit, as those types don't come along much, even as wingers, and when they do, someone inevitably gambles hard on them (See: Anderson, Dvorak, Garland, Goodrow etc).

I think there'll be at least one GM in the league who wants to gamble on Crouse.

 

[Dead Coyote]

That's not an unreasonable position, but just a correction, PHI retains 50% and then AZ retains 50% of that so about $2m. Same as Detroit with Savard last year if my understanding of the cap implications is correct.

My value for Crouse was based on a thread from a few days ago where it seemed a few good prospects + a 2nd was ok with most AZ fans. I do believe both Sean Behrens and Drew Helleson will be NHL players. Compher is no value, yes.

Makes more sense then. The salary retention is a lot more palpable, in that case. Personally I don't think Behrens or Helleson is a lock, nor do I think they're good enough to be high quality prospects. I'd much rather have one highly touted prospect and something like a 2nd for the retention than have 2-3 decent prospects, considering where we are right now. But BA has his own opinions and this is easily a type of deal that could happen. He probably wants more picks if he's going that route though.