Collapse of the PAC-12: Oregon State & Washington State left in the dust

[TheGreenTBer]

nothing says Atlantic coast like California

 

[GindyDraws]

nothing says Atlantic coast like California

Boston College at California for those 11am Eastern starts.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

Boston College at California for those 11am Eastern starts.

I live in Boston, we are still hungover at that time

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

The Big Ten would also be a better institutional fit than the ACC. More AAU members in the former than the latter.

 

[PCSPounder]

Definitely possible. Enforcing the GoR may be legally complex. Have only skimmed the barest of details but I can see potential issues when multiple state laws and legislatures are involved.

I‘m sure FSU has no shortage of lawyers advising them.

But are they good lawyers?

 

[TheGreenTBer]

But are they good lawyers?

The important thing is that they are highly paid.

Or something.

 

[MMC]

ACC having early discussions on adding Cal, Stanford

The move comes after last week's announcement that Arizona, Arizona State and Utah will follow Colorado to the Big 12 in 2024.

theathletic.com

 

[tarheelhockey]

I want college football to collapse so f***ing hard. The sport is not enjoyable anymore yet its as big as its ever been.

I don’t understand why we’re continuing to connect this stuff to universities. The players are now openly professional, the conferences are very openly acting as minor-professional leagues, the players and coaches are full-time employees who are only nominally connected to the school for the purpose of maintaining legal exemptions.

I heard today that Stanford is going to have to start throwing millions more dollars at football to prop up the program after this. Imagine that, the esteemed Stanford University redirecting huge amounts of university/academic funds toward an openly pro athletic business that they’re running on the side. What are we even doing here?

And that’s just Stanford. The effect of this tomfoolery on public schools is just indefensible. Imagine being a taxpayer in the state of Washington and having someone explain how all this collateral damage is just completely fine for your taxpayer-funded public universities.

We’ve long since reached the point where Congress should have intervened and broken up this charade of “amateur athleticism”. But at this point it becomes not just a failure to intervene, but an active choice to stand by and let a parasite entertainment corporation do actual financial damage to public institutions as part of a private enterprise. Just break ‘em off and let them operate independently as the pro leagues they actually are.

 

[MMC]

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

ESPN should be saying otherwise because if they don't they will be surrendering the Pacific Time Zone to Fox, something they should not want to do.

I'm all for MW expansion, but I'd rather see them raid the Big Sky to accomplish that. In particular, Montana and Montana State have wanted to go FBS together for some time, and now that the WAC isn't FBS anymore the MW is the quickest option to go FBS for Big Sky schools. Otherwise, they'd have to move non-football sports to the WAC and football to the United Athletic Conference (like Southern Utah did), which will significantly slow the timetable for an FBS move that any Big Sky school might want to make as the UAC wants to go FBS, but is taking their sweet time in doing so.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

Meanwhile, an ACC with Cal and Stanford could allow a schedule format with five protected conference opponents for each team and three rotating on an eight-year schedule, which could lead to all Tobacco Road match-ups being protected. I still think that can be accomplished by keeping the membership as is and moving to a 7-game conference schedule with four protected opponents for each team and three rotating opponents on a 6-year schedule.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Man, Cal and Stanford are going to be peeved when their new conference gets poached by the Big Ten and SEC.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

If Cal and Stanford get into the ACC, here's what I'd like each team's five protected opponents to be:

Boston College: Clemson, Miami, Pitt, Stanford, Syracuse
California: Georgia Tech, North Carolina, Pitt, Stanford, Virginia
Clemson: Boston College, Florida State, Georgia Tech, Louisville, NC State
Duke: Louisville, North Carolina, NC State, Stanford, Wake Forest
Florida State: Clemson, Louisville, Miami, NC State, Virginia
Georgia Tech: California, Clemson, Pitt, Virginia Tech, Wake Forest
Louisville: Clemson, Duke, Florida State, Virginia, Virginia Tech
Miami: Boston College, Florida State, Pitt, Stanford, Syracuse
North Carolina: California, Duke, NC State, Virginia, Wake Forest
NC State: Clemson, Duke, Florida State, North Carolina, Wake Forest
Pitt: Boston College, California, Georgia Tech, Miami, Syracuse
Stanford: Boston College, California, Duke, Miami, Syracuse
Syracuse: Boston College, Miami, Pitt, Stanford, Virginia Tech
Virginia: California, Florida State, Louisville, North Carolina, Virginia Tech
Virginia Tech: Georgia Tech, Louisville, Syracuse, Virginia, Wake Forest
Wake Forest: Duke, Georgia Tech, North Carolina, NC State, Virginia Tech

 

[GKJ]

ESPN should be saying otherwise because if they don't they will be surrendering the Pacific Time Zone to Fox, something they should not want to do.

I'm all for MW expansion, but I'd rather see them raid the Big Sky to accomplish that. In particular, Montana and Montana State have wanted to go FBS together for some time, and now that the WAC isn't FBS anymore the MW is the quickest option to go FBS for Big Sky schools. Otherwise, they'd have to move non-football sports to the WAC and football to the United Athletic Conference (like Southern Utah did), which will significantly slow the timetable for an FBS move that any Big Sky school might want to make as the UAC wants to go FBS, but is taking their sweet time in doing so.

I think you’re right on After Dark. I don’t know how those mountain time zone schools feel about 8:30pm local starts. The ACC adding Cal and Stanford would probably fill enough holes.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

I don’t understand why we’re continuing to connect this stuff to universities. The players are now openly professional, the conferences are very openly acting as minor-professional leagues, the players and coaches are full-time employees who are only nominally connected to the school for the purpose of maintaining legal exemptions.

I heard today that Stanford is going to have to start throwing millions more dollars at football to prop up the program after this. Imagine that, the esteemed Stanford University redirecting huge amounts of university/academic funds toward an openly pro athletic business that they’re running on the side. What are we even doing here?

And that’s just Stanford. The effect of this tomfoolery on public schools is just indefensible. Imagine being a taxpayer in the state of Washington and having someone explain how all this collateral damage is just completely fine for your taxpayer-funded public universities.

We’ve long since reached the point where Congress should have intervened and broken up this charade of “amateur athleticism”. But at this point it becomes not just a failure to intervene, but an active choice to stand by and let a parasite entertainment corporation do actual financial damage to public institutions as part of a private enterprise. Just break ‘em off and let them operate independently as the pro leagues they actually are.

One of the best posts I've ever read. Cheers.

 

[DaveG]

Man, Cal and Stanford are going to be peeved when their new conference gets poached by the Big Ten and SEC.

Yep. ACC seems to be on borrowed time at this point. Most of the conference should have soft landing spots though as a local I simultaneously fear and expect that Wake could end up being another Wazzu. Fantastic school, but also small and not a national draw in the same way say Duke is for basketball.

 

[BattleBorn]

I've always admired Oregon's uniforms in football.

More football teams at all levels should take that approach to uniforms.

I think many have tried, but Oregon is Oregon and there's no real history to hold the edge.

Boise State is the next best executor of something close, IMO.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

The ACC adding Cal and Stanford would probably fill enough holes.

Disagree. The Big Ten already has four PTZ schools alone. Oregon State and Washington State joining the Big 12 would give ESPN access to them and Cal and Stanford, which gives them four PTZ schools in Power conferences they own the rights to to match Fox.

As I said in an earlier post, if the MW wants to expand they should look at the Big Sky. They already have two former Big Sky schools - Boise State and Nevada - in their ranks. Montana and Montana State moving up together which has been a goal for years would be accomplished quickest with a move to the MW. It would take longer with a move of non-football sports to the WAC and football to the UAC.

 

[GKJ]

Disagree. The Big Ten already has four PTZ schools alone. Oregon State and Washington State joining the Big 12 would give ESPN access to them and Cal and Stanford, which gives them four PTZ schools in Power conferences they own the rights to to match Fox.

As I said in an earlier post, if the MW wants to expand they should look at the Big Sky. They already have two former Big Sky schools - Boise State and Nevada - in their ranks. Montana and Montana State moving up together which has been a goal for years would be accomplished quickest with a move to the MW. It would take longer with a move of non-football sports to the WAC and football to the UAC.

The Big 12’s deal is with both ESPN and Fox, so they will both have access, with ESPN likely getting more because Fox has to service the MWC and the Pacific Big Ten teams.

This is why if I was Oregon State, or any of the remaining Pac-12 teams, see if they can make their own deal with ESPN and market yourselves as After Dark programs, because that’s what would’ve happened anyways.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

Of course the distinction between P5 and G5 is about to disappear with the expanded playoff guaranteeing spots for 6 conference champions

 

[jkrdevil]

Definitely possible. Enforcing the GoR may be legally complex. Have only skimmed the barest of details but I can see potential issues when multiple state laws and legislatures are involved.

I‘m sure FSU has no shortage of lawyers advising them.

The biggest challenge is who is going to take in FSU if they try to challenge it. The Big Ten and SEC have grants of rights themselves (which the ACC’s is modeled on) that they in theory would like to have enforced itself. FSU may end up finding itself on the outside looking in if they try to break it. Even if successful, because then that frees up the other ACC schools to leave and UNC, UVA, Miami and GT are all presumably ahead of FSU in the Big Ten pecking order of schools they want and the SEC already has the bigger Florida brand. FSU could be looking at just owing private equity a lot of money.

As for Stanford and Cal, I wonder if just going to the ACC for Football and parking the rest of their sports in the WCC would make more sense than full membership. Stay in a power conference for football, but not have to send the “mid-week” sports all the way to the east coast all the time.

 

[jkrdevil]

Yep. ACC seems to be on borrowed time at this point. Most of the conference should have soft landing spots though as a local I simultaneously fear and expect that Wake could end up being another Wazzu. Fantastic school, but also small and not a national draw in the same way say Duke is for basketball.

By the time the B1G is ready to poach the ACC (again) they may be ready to take Cal and Stanford as well. The end result is probably a 24 team super conference that can conduct its own playoff to sell.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

If the ACC does break up I think same-state schools like those in NC will insist on being in a new conference together.

 

[mouser]

The biggest challenge is who is going to take in FSU if they try to challenge it. The Big Ten and SEC have grants of rights themselves (which the ACC’s is modeled on) that they in theory would like to have enforced itself. FSU may end up finding itself on the outside looking in if they try to break it. Even if successful, because then that frees up the other ACC schools to leave and UNC, UVA, Miami and GT are all presumably ahead of FSU in the Big Ten pecking order of schools they want and the SEC already has the bigger Florida brand. FSU could be looking at just owing private equity a lot of money.

As for Stanford and Cal, I wonder if just going to the ACC for Football and parking the rest of their sports in the WCC would make more sense than full membership. Stay in a power conference for football, but not have to send the “mid-week” sports all the way to the east coast all the time.

Any hypothetical FSU departure from the ACC would depend on the legal basis. For example if FSU’s legal justification is state law, then FSU’s legal argument may not apply to UNC, UVA, Clemson or GT. It might not even apply to Miami if there’s a legal nuance between public and private entities in the state laws of Florida.

I still remain highly skeptical FSU has a legal basis to exit the GoR though.


On a different angle, I do believe if 8 of the 15 ACC schools decided to dissolve the ACC that would render the GoR null and void. However that choice would open a huge can of legal worms.

- ESPN could pursue the ACC schools/conference for breach of contract.
- Other organizations holding contracts with the ACC might also have legal compensation claims if the ACC is dissolved.
- Even if ESPN was onboard with their ACC contract ending and signing a new one with a % of the departing schools that opens up ESPN to lawsuits from the “rejected“ ACC schools for breach of contract by ESPN.
- If Fox was involved in encouraging the ACC schools to dissolve that could open up Fox to lawsuits from both ESPN and the ACC schools for tortuous interference with a contract.
- If ESPN and Fox collaborated on ending the ESPN ACC media deal that’s even worse risk.
- Those same legal risks of tortuous interference lawsuits could also apply to both the Big Ten and SEC if they are involved in encouraging a ACC breakup.

I’m very skeptical FSU and Clemson could convince 6 other schools to join them in dissolving the ACC with all that legal risk.

 

[joelef]

I don’t understand why we’re continuing to connect this stuff to universities. The players are now openly professional, the conferences are very openly acting as minor-professional leagues, the players and coaches are full-time employees who are only nominally connected to the school for the purpose of maintaining legal exemptions.

I heard today that Stanford is going to have to start throwing millions more dollars at football to prop up the program after this. Imagine that, the esteemed Stanford University redirecting huge amounts of university/academic funds toward an openly pro athletic business that they’re running on the side. What are we even doing here?

And that’s just Stanford. The effect of this tomfoolery on public schools is just indefensible. Imagine being a taxpayer in the state of Washington and having someone explain how all this collateral damage is just completely fine for your taxpayer-funded public universities.

We’ve long since reached the point where Congress should have intervened and broken up this charade of “amateur athleticism”. But at this point it becomes not just a failure to intervene, but an active choice to stand by and let a parasite entertainment corporation do actual financial damage to public institutions as part of a private enterprise. Just break ‘em off and let them operate independently as the pro leagues they actually are.

Not only thyat but no one is holding the feet to the fire of the nfl and the us Olympic committee for not putting a dime into developing athletes while weeping the benefits