Player Discussion: Cole Perfetti 10th OA pick

[Whodey204]

NHL is a young man's game now. Not saying rushing players is the right thing, but having productive ELC contracts contributing is the only way we will truly be a cup contender.

Let's stop somehow pretending the Bittetto, Beaulieu, Dahlstrom, Sbisa era of the past few years was somehow a success.

Frankly, I'd rather ice young players with potential and lose more games in the short term than go through what we did the past few years.

Being in the mediocre middle is the ultimate sports purgatory. No chance at winning it all, and little to no hope at getting better

 

[Mathil8]

It comes down to if he's ready to come in and contribute. If he is and wins a spot then he should play ala players like Point. If he's not then sure send him for some more seasoning.

Seasoning him just for the sake of seasoning if he's ready isn't something we should be practicing.

I believe this is what the Jets philosophy has been. The only wrinkle is on the decision making for players who could likely out perform poor vets in certain roles, but would do so inconsistently in the coaching staff's minds; more often than not, in this case the player is sent down for more time with the moose.

Either way, if Perfetti is ready for a top 6 role, I don't think management/the coaching staff will hold him back.

Different players develop on different timelines, there is no set amount of time required for a player to spend in the AHL. I think we forget that this has been the Jets development MO since we haven't had a blue chip prospect coming up for quite a while.

 

[Flair Hay]

Since the 15-16 (including that season) the Jets have iced one of the youngest rosters in the NHL.

you say Connor is the one exception but I’d love for you to give me 3 examples of a young player that Pomo refuses to put in the line up that is actually half decent.

this myth was created by people that were adamant that Petan, Dano, Niku Etc. were sure fire young players that would light the league on fire if it wasn’t for Maurice.

Pretty much

Everyone seems to be trying to make fetch happen with him being a center. His junior coach, even Team Canada seem to view him as a winger. With Scheifele, PLD, Lowry here I imagine he starts his NHL career at wing. Maybe I'm wrong?

If there is a time the Jets try to sneak him in the NHL, it would be injuries (of course) and then have him available for playoffs.

 

[ecolad]

I believe this is what the Jets philosophy has been. The only wrinkle is on the decision making for players who could likely out perform poor vets in certain roles, but would do so inconsistently in the coaching staff's minds; more often than not, in this case the player is sent down for more time with the moose.

Either way, if Perfetti is ready for a top 6 role, I don't think management/the coaching staff will hold him back.

Different players develop on different timelines, there is no set amount of time required for a player to spend in the AHL. I think we forget that this has been the Jets development MO since we haven't had a blue chip prospect coming up for quite a while.

Agreed for the most part. But there are times quite frankly when I'm disappointed that Perfetti's chances to make the big club are limited to outperforming vets on the top 2 lines!! This occurs of course as a consequence of Maurice structuring the 3rd line to be something of a specialized " match up line, with a strong defensive bias". In the absence of a somewhat normal balanced 3rd line, Maurice is unable to bring Perfetti onto the club in something of a sheltered role ,so that he can adjust, gain confidence, and ultimately gain enough trust to be considered for top line play.

But who knows,perhaps we'll see Maurice move away from the rigid top 6, matchup, and energy line structure this year?

 

[Teemusalami204]

Let’s slow down on this guy a bit. Guy is the size of a child still. Let’s let him fill out and get stronger before we rush him in. He’s already going to be that soft Jordan eberle type of player.

 

[DEANYOUNGBLOOD17]

Just like Heinola…… he will play less than 10 NHL games this year and his ELC contract will slide to 3 years remaining starting next year!

Stastny has his spot for 2021-22 year!

I see antlers on his Jersey ….. for the foreseeable future!!!!!

 

[Mathil8]

Agreed for the most part. But there are times quite frankly when I'm disappointed that Perfetti's chances to make the big club are limited to outperforming vets on the top 2 lines!! This occurs of course as a consequence of Maurice structuring the 3rd line to be something of a specialized " match up line, with a strong defensive bias". In the absence of a somewhat normal balanced 3rd line, Maurice is unable to bring Perfetti onto the club in something of a sheltered role ,so that he can adjust, gain confidence, and ultimately gain enough trust to be considered for top line play.

But who knows,perhaps we'll see Maurice move away from the rigid top 6, matchup, and energy line structure this year?

Agreed regarding it being hard for offensive minded top 6 prospects to break in due to Maurice structuring the 3rd line to be a shutdown line, and I doubt that's changing while Lowry's here. However, if Perfetti can't beat out Stastny and move him to to the third line, Perfetti isn't ready. I also don't think Maurice would have a problem going with a third line of Stastny Lowry Copp/FA if Perfetti proves ready for the top 6.

@DEANYOUNGBLOOD17 Normally I'd agree with the jets playing him under the 10 games to let his ELC slide, but at this point we're all in on the 3 year window we have, and his ELC will last that long regardless, don't think they're too worried about burning a year of his ELC.

 

[Imcanadianeh]

At least with Niku, the argument wasn't that he would light the world on fire. It was that they should give him a shot because he was being blocked by garbage veterans. Dahlström, Bitetto, Sbisa and the ilk were provably bad hockey players. Niku was an unknown who could be better than them, especially based on his performance in the A. Which is exactly what the discussion is about. It's not that young players should play over better veterans. It's that they should play over bad veterans.

If Perfetti, put in a top 6 position, makes our team better, I claim that he shouldn't be put in the AHL because the Red Wings were successful in doing that when they had a dynasty roster in the 90s and 00s.

Niku wasn’t an unknown he played 30 games in 18-19 and 17 in 19-20, he looked horrible in every game, there isn’t a stat out there that doesn’t show Niku has one of the worst defenseman in that time frame.

I posted Niku’s stats (Corsi, HDCorsi, xGF, etc…) before and Niku ranked around 260-270 in every stat out of the 270 defenseman that qualified.

 

[Imcanadianeh]

View attachment 459664

So far the only prospect people have been able to give me an example of has been Heinola, seems like a pretty short list considering I’ve been told for 8 years now Maurice has been refusing to play prospects even though they’re better than the Vets.

Lets be honest the only thing holding Heinola back is the fact that he looks like a child out there playing against men, I’m not saying he wouldn’t be able to handle a full NHL season but it wouldn’t surprise if he ended up getting hurt/injured often.

 

[Romang67]

Niku wasn’t an unknown he played 30 games in 18-19 and 17 in 19-20, he looked horrible in every game, there isn’t a stat out there that doesn’t show Niku has one of the worst defenseman in that time frame.

I posted Niku’s stats (Corsi, HDCorsi, xGF, etc…) before and Niku ranked around 260-270 in every stat out of the 270 defenseman that qualified.

People weren't clamoring for Niku this past season. At least not a significant portion of people. You can find fringe hot takes regarding anything on here.

A 23 year old Niku at the start of the 2019 season was very much an unknown. 30 games does not a player make, especially at that age. The players playing above him had a much longer track record of being bad.

People wanted him to get a shot over those bad players, mostly because they wanted to see if we could have a puck moving D-man instead of traffic cones, and they wanted to see if he was better than he showed his rookie year. I don't understand why this is controversial. Especially when we had a D-man in Pionk showing how it's a bad idea to write off a D-man after his rookie year.

Niku didn't perform well, and is now way down the depth chart. If Perfetti gets a shot and doesn't perform well, he'll have to work on his game in the minors for a while longer. If he does perform well, he shouldn't have to go down because an older worse player can take that spot. I also don't get why this is controversial.

 

[BoneDocUK]

Let’s slow down on this guy a bit. Guy is the size of a child still. Let’s let him fill out and get stronger before we rush him in. He’s already going to be that soft Jordan eberle type of player.

Have you watched him play? His game is nothing like Eberle's, even as a junior. Cole always is in the mix, carrying, digging out pucks, protecting possession, making short plays, sniping. He is absolutely not a perimeter player. I don't think we really have a forward who plays like him in our lineup, outside of maybe peak Stats.

If he's ready out of camp, he should play. If he isn't, he can start in the AHL and be ready to run with his chance when called up. The worst possible spot for him this season, IMO, is Heinola'ing away in the PB or playing a few minutes a night on the 4th line trying not to get scored on or benched.

 

[Whodey204]

So far the only prospect people have been able to give me an example of has been Heinola, seems like a pretty short list considering I’ve been told for 8 years now Maurice has been refusing to play prospects even though they’re better than the Vets.

Lets be honest the only thing holding Heinola back is the fact that he looks like a child out there playing against men, I’m not saying he wouldn’t be able to handle a full NHL season but it wouldn’t surprise if he ended up getting hurt/injured often.

Do you remember Ehlers slugging it out with Thorburn early in his career? What about Trouba having to drag Mark Stuart around year after year? What about Kyle Connor being sent to the moose in 2017, and the only reason he was called up was because of injuries. Those 4 games played for the moose that season sure must have got him ready for the big leagues!

Those vets like Cody Eakin sure look great playing as a 2C too

In 24 seasons as a coach, Maurice has taken his team past the first round of the playoffs exactly 3 times. Enough said.

Forgive me for not giving him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to judging talent.

 

[Whileee]

Do you remember Ehlers slugging it out with Thorburn early in his career? What about Trouba having to drag Mark Stuart around year after year? What about Kyle Connor being sent to the moose in 2017, and the only reason he was called up was because of injuries. Those 4 games played for the moose that season sure must have got him ready for the big leagues!

Those vets like Cody Eakin sure look great playing as a 2C too

In 24 seasons as a coach, Maurice has taken his team past the first round of the playoffs exactly 3 times. Enough said.

Forgive me for not giving him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to judging talent.

This myth never seems to die.

Ehlers had 174 minutes with Thorburn in his rookie season, and over 535 minutes with Scheifele, Little or Perreault. So he played less than 25% of his rookie season with Thorburn, and about 75% on the 1st or 2nd line.

 

[None]

This myth never seems to die.

Ehlers had 174 minutes with Thorburn in his rookie season, and over 535 minutes with Scheifele, Little or Perreault. So he played less than 25% of his rookie season with Thorburn, and about 75% on the 1st or 2nd line.

Where are your TOI numbers from? Naturalstattrick has Ehlers playing these minutes in 15-16
390:13 w/ Scheifele
135:39 w/ Thorburn
122:04 w/ Little
113:57 w/ Perreault

His slump in 15-16 also coincides exactly with when he was put with Thorburn and Burmistrov in December, it's hardly a myth. His aTOI dropped by 1.5-2 minutes and he was playing around ~13 minutes a night with 80-99% of his ice time coming with Thorburn and Burmistrov. He'd take the occasional shift with Stafford and Scheifele but would consistently get pushed back down. His game improved when Perreault was moved down, to play with Thorburn and Ehlers in late December when Burmistrov was moved up because of a short term injury to Scheifele. When Scheifele returned and Ehlers was playing with Perreault and Scheifele his game took off again.

Ehlers played basically the entire month of December with Thorburn and Burmistrov; that's a fact.

 

[Whileee]

Where are your TOI numbers from? Naturalstattrick has Ehlers playing these minutes in 15-16
390:13 w/ Scheifele
135:39 w/ Thorburn
122:04 w/ Little
113:57 w/ Perreault

His slump in 15-16 also coincides exactly with when he was put with Thorburn and Burmistrov in December, it's hardly a myth. His aTOI dropped by 1.5-2 minutes and he was playing around ~13 minutes a night with 80-99% of his ice time coming with Thorburn and Burmistrov. He'd take the occasional shift with Stafford and Scheifele but would consistently get pushed back down. His game improved when Perreault was moved down, to play with Thorburn and Ehlers in late December when Burmistrov was moved up because of a short term injury to Scheifele. When Scheifele returned and Ehlers was playing with Perreault and Scheifele his game took off again.

Ehlers played basically the entire month of December with Thorburn and Burmistrov; that's a fact.

Evolving Hockey. The stats you post make the same point. Out of his entire rookie season, Ehlers played only a small proportion of his time with Thorburn, and mostly played with linemates like Scheifele and Little and Perreault.

Data below are from EH, at 5v5.

 

[None]

Evolving Hockey. The stats you post make the same point. Out of his entire rookie season, Ehlers played only a small proportion of his time with Thorburn, and mostly played with linemates like Scheifele and Little and Perreault.

Data below are from EH, at 5v5.

View attachment 459909

The point is that you're calling it a myth, when it's clearly not? The media narrative that year was that Ehlers was slumping during December without the context that the entire slump coincided with him being dropped down the lineup. 20% (14/72) of his season that year with Thorburn isn't really a small amount.

 

[Whileee]

The point is that you're calling it a myth, when it's clearly not? The media narrative that year was that Ehlers was slumping during December without the context that the entire slump coincided with him being dropped down the lineup. 20% (14/72) of his season that year with Thorburn isn't really a small amount.

It's a myth that Ehlers spent a considerable part of his rookie season with Thorburn. It was for a short stretch, less than a quarter of the season, and most of the season was with top linemates.

 

[truck]

It's a myth that Ehlers spent a considerable part of his rookie season with Thorburn. It was for a short stretch, less than a quarter of the season, and most of the season was with top linemates.

Thorburn was his 4th most common linemate. They played nearly 200 minutes together. It was less than a quarter of his season, but it was still significant and he played far fewer minutes in those games than when he was in the top 6.

 

[Ginger Papa]

I am in no rush with this kid. He needs to develop right because he is a critical piece moving forward. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him in the NHL in his draft +3 season

As much as it pains me to agree with you my friend, I do so again
Of course I kid. I think this young talent will do nothing but benefit from more time with the Moose & their Skill Development team. Allow them to work on his skating mechanics and let his game catch up to his brain.

In regards to the detour this Thread appears to have taken regarding deployment of ice time for Ehlers & Niku…. With all due respect,

 

[Imcanadianeh]

Do you remember Ehlers slugging it out with Thorburn early in his career? What about Trouba having to drag Mark Stuart around year after year? What about Kyle Connor being sent to the moose in 2017, and the only reason he was called up was because of injuries. Those 4 games played for the moose that season sure must have got him ready for the big leagues!

Those vets like Cody Eakin sure look great playing as a 2C too

In 24 seasons as a coach, Maurice has taken his team past the first round of the playoffs exactly 3 times. Enough said.

Forgive me for not giving him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to judging talent.

So to prove Maurice doesn’t like playing young players you point to two instances (Trouba and Ehlers) playing in the NHL to prove your point, seems pretty bass ackwards to me.

the myth that Ehlers had to slug it out with Thorburn is so over blown, Ehlers rookie year he played 17% of his minutes with Thorburn, over his first two seasons he played 5% of his minutes with Thorburn.

Trouba played with Stuart because he was the third best right handed defenseman on the roster at the time and refused to play his offside, once Trouba solidified himself as a top 4 defenseman he never played with Stuart again.

I pointed how before how people forget just how bad Kyle Connor looked in camp and the start of that year, once he got called back up he looked like a completely different player and has being playing in the top 6 every since.

you complain about Eakin playing 2C like the Jets had any better option and it’s not like Eakin was blocking any young player at the time either.

 

[buggs]

As much as it pains me to agree with you my friend, I do so again
Of course I kid. I think this young talent will do nothing but benefit from more time with the Moose & their Skill Development team. Allow them to work on his skating mechanics and let his game catch up to his brain.

In regards to the detour this Thread appears to have taken regarding deployment of ice time for Ehlers & Niku…. With all due respect,
View attachment 459911

Welcome to the magic of the internet? On topic? Why would we do that?

I'm in the camp of taking our time with Perfetti within reason. When we signed Stats last year it was a plus to remove pressure from Perfetti along with filling that 2C hole. I hoped we would re-sign Stats for a year or two on a good deal to give time to Perfetti for more development. Thankfully Chevy took my advice.

If the kid knocks the door down, let him in. Otherwise a year down the road is ok by me. I'd be shocked and impressed if he had his "man strength" by this year, so no huge rush. Get him strong the right way and maybe we end up with a Marty St. Louis Jr.? Dare to dream.

 

[Imcanadianeh]

Delete

 

[Whileee]

Thorburn was his 4th most common linemate. They played nearly 200 minutes together. It was less than a quarter of his season, but it was still significant and he played far fewer minutes in those games than when he was in the top 6.

So, a 19 year old rookie plays on the 4th line for 20 games or so, and the rest of the time in the top 6, and somehow that's an indication that he was torpedoed by his coach? I think it's a weak case and way overblown on this board.

 

[ps241]

Pretty much

Everyone seems to be trying to make fetch happen with him being a center. His junior coach, even Team Canada seem to view him as a winger. With Scheifele, PLD, Lowry here I imagine he starts his NHL career at wing. Maybe I'm wrong?

If there is a time the Jets try to sneak him in the NHL, it would be injuries (of course) and then have him available for playoffs.

With the qualifier that all prospects develop on their own time line and if Perfetti kicks down the door this season so be it.

With that out of the way one positive reason to start Cole on the Moose is we can continue developing him at Centre and letting him learn that position while he grows physically and improves his skating. The further development at Centre could be very valuable. I could Perfetti breaking in on the wing in the NHL and doing well there but Cole reminds me of Stastny a bit in the sense that even if they don’t skate fast they are so smart that type of player can be very effective at Centre too.

Whileee has stumped for Perfetti and Dubois on a line together and I would like to see it at some point. That is an intriguing pair to me.

 

[Howard Chuck]

I won't try to argue what has happened in the past as I don't track those stats like some here are capable of, all I want is to ice the best team. If someone like Perfetti or Heinola (or anyone else) is better than what we are icing at the time (in a similar role), then play them. That's my simplistic view of how to win games and make me less frustrated with the team