Coach Discussion: Dan Bylsma

[Sabre Dance]

The proof is there by just watching one game. The players are not doing well in the system but Bylsma refuses to change anything.

I've seen players attempt to carry the puck. This team doesn't do very well carrying the puck, probably their biggest weakness. Without Eichel they pretty much have zero puck carriers.

Maybe that's why he chooses dump and chase.

 

[jBuds]

Help me out here. What proof do you have that the system is the problem? Obviously a dump and chase system has worked for other teams, so why wouldn't it work here? Is our roster built for a different system? Why would Murray bring in a system that doesn't fit his roster?

I am more of a football guy when it comes to systems and strategies. I can watch a football game and tell you what systems and strategies are being used live during a play. I can tell you what system a player excels in.

I can't do that with hockey, but I don't see anyone else doing that either. Why is the system Bylsma uses wrong? Why do you think this roster would perform better in a different system? Are hockey systems even talent dependent? Does skill matter? I know dump and chase takes less skill. So explain to me why a different system would benefit this roster?

We don't have a roster conducive to that brand IMO

Rattle off the names of our top...9 offensive forwards when fully healthy. Other than Kane, who is anything close to prominent on the forecheck? Nobody.



That premise - as simple as it is - reverberates.



If you're more of a possession player, and you're asked to be a dump and chase player, the ramifications of that extend beyond just simply getting the puck in and going after it.



How smart are you being with your dump-in? Are you looking to see where help is coming from, going near or far corner or hard/soft wrap accordingly?



Are you now hesitating, instead of attacking, when you approach the offensive blueline? It decreases transition speed a lot.





______________



ALSO, as an aside, I believe there is a distinction between dump-and-chase versus chip-and-chase.



You can be a possession team that encourages 3 or 4 man zone entries, but if you're met at the blueline by a more aggressive defensive team, you'll have to chip the puck past them and get on it; indirect passes or bank passes; poor angle shots...

 

[Jame]

Help me out here. What proof do you have that the system is the problem?

History of Bylsma Team's Corsi
System predicated on limited skill set (Defensemen/Stretch Pass)
System predicated on low % transition (stretch vs possession)
System places least amount of value on our strongest position (center)

Obviously a dump and chase system has worked for other teams, so why wouldn't it work here?

Outside of LA, it really hasn't.

Is our roster built for a different system?

Yes, our roster is built for a possession based system utilizing our centers as the drivers of transition hockey.

Why would Murray bring in a system that doesn't fit his roster?

I've been dumbfounded since day 1.

I am more of a football guy when it comes to systems and strategies. I can watch a football game and tell you what systems and strategies are being used live during a play. I can tell you what system a player excels in.

But you don't believe that exists in hockey... interesting

I can't do that with hockey, but I don't see anyone else doing that either. Why is the system Bylsma uses wrong?

Why do you think this roster would perform better in a different system?

Are hockey systems even talent dependent? Does skill matter? I know dump and chase takes less skill. So explain to me why a different system would benefit this roster?

I've seen you ask the same questions over and over, many have replied and answered these questions.

 

[Sabre Dance]

History of Bylsma Team's Corsi
System predicated on limited skill set (Defensemen/Stretch Pass)
System predicated on low % transition (stretch vs possession)
System places least amount of value on our strongest position (center)




Outside of LA, it really hasn't.



Yes, our roster is built for a possession based system utilizing our centers as the drivers of transition hockey.




I've been dumbfounded since day 1.



But you don't believe that exists in hockey... interesting



I've seen you ask the same questions over and over, many have replied and answered these questions.

I don't know, I think we lack the puck carriers, especially with Kane and Eichel out. We have some players that can cycle the puck once it's in the zone but getting it in the zone without dumping could be a challenge for this group.

 

[Jame]

I don't know, I think we lack the puck carriers, especially with Kane and Eichel out. We have some players that can cycle the puck once it's in the zone but getting it in the zone without dumping could be a challenge for this group.

i strongly disagree

I think you see that because of a system that makes puck possession through the neutral zone as difficult as a system can make it.

 

[Paxon]

I've seen players attempt to carry the puck. This team doesn't do very well carrying the puck, probably their biggest weakness. Without Eichel they pretty much have zero puck carriers.

Maybe that's why he chooses dump and chase.

In his post-hire interviews he was pumping up the merits of dump and chase, without putting it in the context of the players on the roster. It was the style he pushed the majority of the time in Pittsburgh as well.

 

[joshjull]

I don't know, I think we lack the puck carriers, especially with Kane and Eichel out. We have some players that can cycle the puck once it's in the zone but getting it in the zone without dumping could be a challenge for this group.

Unless I'm reading your post(s) wrong. You view gaining the zone as primarily about individual players doing it on their own. Though that helps. Coaches can and do develop passing schemes through the neutral zone and into the offensive zone to make the zone entry happen with possession. If you're relying on individuals to break down defenders 1 on 1 to gain the zone. Then you're not going to have much success.

We do very little in the way of puck support coming out of our zone and through the neutral zone. Generally our forwards are spread out with large gaps between each other and our dmen. Those gaps need to much smaller in order to support the puck up the ice and into the opposing zone.

 

[jBuds]

I don't know, I think we lack the puck carriers, especially with Kane and Eichel out. We have some players that can cycle the puck once it's in the zone but getting it in the zone without dumping could be a challenge for this group.

Sorry to keep butting in, just trying to help the comprehension.


First, Kane isn't a puck carrier - he'd be the only one who I'd call a dump and chase winger...


Second, I think the commentary around this is pretty accurate. In short, you'll see it become easier to enter the zone if you constantly try to attack with the puck on your stick versus dumping.


The D has to back off a bit, and you'd also see guys without the puck becoming more of a threat: if you're encouraging an attack with possession, guys are going to be driving into passing lanes and/or to the net; opponents have to mind that. It's not as simple as waiting by your defensive blueline and getting a head start on a retrieval you know you'll have to embark on because they are ONLY dumping it in.


Like I said, you'd see reverberations if we changed our style...you take the weak side D out with the weak side forward (from a threat perspective) and have a mini two on one or three on one in a perfect world with your strong side dman jumping up

 

[Sabre Dance]

Unless I'm reading your post(s) wrong. You view gaining the zone as primarily about individual players doing it on their own. Though that helps. Coaches can and do develop passing schemes through the neutral zone and into the offensive zone to make the zone entry happen with possession. If you're relying on individuals to break down defenders 1 on 1 to gain the zone then you're not going to have much success.

Yes I was. I figured there is a lot more to it. It does seem like when our guys carry it in they do it all by themselves.

 

[Zip15]

But we destroy Ennis when he skates around with the puck.

And the irony is that if Marcus Foligno just chips that puck past the defenseman instead of passing to Reinhart standing six feet away from him just inside the blueline, leading to Sam's dumb penalty, we are probably talking about a 3-2 win last night.

 

[SabresFan26]

i strongly disagree

I think you see that because of a system that makes puck possession through the neutral zone as difficult as a system can make it.

Because of distance between passes.

In regards to Sabredance, watch Tampa, Chicago, Pittsburgh play. Lots of support all over the ice with short passes and attacking with speed. Engage a guy make a short pass and make the game lots of mini 2v1s. Start with the defense having great 2-way guys with great outlet passesfor fast break outs and counter transition with a forward back as a hinge option. How many 2v1 3v2 have we had this year vs given up?

 

[RocSabres]

I don't foresee Murray pulling the plug on Bylsma mid season. For one Eichel and Kane, 2 top 6 forwards are out and secondly he has a 5 year contract I doubt they'd cut ties after not even year 2 and lastly the coaching market won't have all the candidates until after the season when other coaching changes take place and coaches become available when the season is over. With that being said I could seriously see Bylsma getting dumped after the season if the poor/sloppy (most boring team) play continues and we finish close to the bottom which looks likely at this point even after the return on eichel and kane.

Just out of curiousity assuming Bylsma is gone after the season. Who would be coaching candidates you'd hope we'd look at to fill the vacancy? Do we go with an experienced veteran coach or try someone who may not have the NHL experience but has a solid resume of playing good hockey and winning?

 

[Sabre Dance]

Because of distance between passes.

In regards to Sabredance, watch Tampa, Chicago, Pittsburgh play. Lots of support all over the ice with short passes and attacking with speed. Engage a guy make a short pass and make the game lots of mini 2v1s. Start with the defense having great 2-way guys with great outlet passesfor fast break outs and counter transition with a forward back as a hinge option. How many 2v1 3v2 have we had this year vs given up?

I'm starting to understand what you guys are saying. I think of a possession system as carrying the puck, not the short passes being talked about here. Reinhart jumps out right away as a player that would thrive in that type of system.

 

[Jame]

I'm starting to understand what you guys are saying. I think of a possession system as carrying the puck, not the short passes being talked about here. Reinhart jumps out right away as a player that would thrive in that type of system.

yup
and ROR
and Eichel
and Larsson
and Okposo
and Kane

 

[Jim Bob]

I've seen players attempt to carry the puck. This team doesn't do very well carrying the puck, probably their biggest weakness. Without Eichel they pretty much have zero puck carriers.

Maybe that's why he chooses dump and chase.

And everyone complains that they can't pass, too.

It's hard to play a possession game if the players can't pass or carry the puck....

Eichel is a huge piece to the possession game.

 

[sabrebuild]

It does seem like when our guys carry it in they do it all by themselves.

Exactly!! Watch our zone entries and you will see frequently fwds are standing at the blue line, while 1 guy dumps it in or tries to get in solo. What makes a possession system effective is close support. So the puck carrier always has an easy short pass to proactively set up easier plays.

As it stands now, we are openly trying higher difficulty passes or dump ins that automatically set up 50/50 puck battles.

In football terms think the raiders deep ball attack of old vs west coast short passing more common now.

 

[Myllz]

I'm starting to understand what you guys are saying. I think of a possession system as carrying the puck, not the short passes being talked about here. Reinhart jumps out right away as a player that would thrive in that type of system.

Yeah, that makes sense. What makes the Sabres so awful at possession (which has been said by a few now) is their lack of puck support. Watch how many times a defender will go into the zone, retrieve the puck behind the net and then try to make a stretch pass to a forward beyond the blue line in any given game. Those passes rarely connect, and even if they do they're generally not clean, which results in either a turnover or an icing, both of which give up possession. The Sabres lack personnel to make those kinds of transitions work. They need to move up the ice as a team, not with defenders trying to hit forwards halfway down the ice with hail mary bombs.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

People are seriously defending Bylsma by calling O'Reilly a bad forechecker? What the entire ****...

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

Unless I'm reading your post(s) wrong. You view gaining the zone as primarily about individual players doing it on their own. Though that helps. Coaches can and do develop passing schemes through the neutral zone and into the offensive zone to make the zone entry happen with possession. If you're relying on individuals to break down defenders 1 on 1 to gain the zone. Then you're not going to have much success.

We do very little in the way of puck support coming out of our zone and through the neutral zone. Generally our forwards are spread out with large gaps between each other and our dmen. Those gaps need to much smaller in order to support the puck up the ice and into the opposing zone.

Agree. Supporting the puck through the neutral zone is critical to offensive zone entry with possession. Our D are too far behind the play and our forwards are too spread out and frequently not in position to support one another.

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

Yeah, that makes sense. What makes the Sabres so awful at possession (which has been said by a few now) is their lack of puck support. Watch how many times a defender will go into the zone, retrieve the puck behind the net and then try to make a stretch pass to a forward beyond the blue line in any given game. Those passes rarely connect, and even if they do they're generally not clean, which results in either a turnover or an icing, both of which give up possession. The Sabres lack personnel to make those kinds of transitions work. They need to move up the ice as a team, not with defenders trying to hit forwards halfway down the ice with hail mary bombs.

Nice description! Reminicient of Patrick Roy's breakout philosophy last season...... piss poor and resulting in low possession percentages and high turnovers. Glad he's gone. Blysma should be gone next......

 

[Sabre Dance]

Yeah, that makes sense. What makes the Sabres so awful at possession (which has been said by a few now) is their lack of puck support. Watch how many times a defender will go into the zone, retrieve the puck behind the net and then try to make a stretch pass to a forward beyond the blue line in any given game. Those passes rarely connect, and even if they do they're generally not clean, which results in either a turnover or an icing, both of which give up possession. The Sabres lack personnel to make those kinds of transitions work. They need to move up the ice as a team, not with defenders trying to hit forwards halfway down the ice with hail mary bombs.

It's making sense to me now. I will be watching for these things now.

 

[Call me betty*]

Yeah, that makes sense. What makes the Sabres so awful at possession (which has been said by a few now) is their lack of puck support. Watch how many times a defender will go into the zone, retrieve the puck behind the net and then try to make a stretch pass to a forward beyond the blue line in any given game. Those passes rarely connect, and even if they do they're generally not clean, which results in either a turnover or an icing, both of which give up possession. The Sabres lack personnel to make those kinds of transitions work. They need to move up the ice as a team, not with defenders trying to hit forwards halfway down the ice with hail mary bombs.

You nailed it 100%. This is the biggest Bylsma gripe i had, besides the maddening use of Craig adams and Tanner glass . He lived and died with the stretch pass, sort of his way to cheating for a quick strike offense, but the teams that win in the playoffs play with great puck support. You saw lot of Pitt teams choke in the playoffs and blow series leads all the time, because Byslma had no other philosophy except the stretch pass even when the other team was reading it like an open book.. The guy cannot make an adjustment to save his life.

 

[Sabretooth]

And everyone complains that they can't pass, too.

It's hard to play a possession game if the players can't pass or carry the puck....

Eichel is a huge piece to the possession game.

I've seen ROR, Risto, and even ennis make plays happen the few times they carried the puck. (I've also seen afinogennis but eh that's ennis sometimes).

And I'm wondering if passing is a chicken/egg scenario. Bylsma seems to have 1 breakout option and that is stretch pass. What are the players coached to do if that's taken away? Anything? Just circle back and regroup and try again? Sure it could be that the sabres aren't making the quick decisions necessary to make the quick passes during a breakout, or it could be that they don't know what to do when the stretch pass is covered because they're not coached to have another option. The hesitation and poor decision could just be an "aw **** that's covered now what do I do" moment and its not the players fault if the system doesn't even give them the alternative options. Maybe if the players were coached to have more options and "check-downs" if the primary option is covered they'd be able to make quicker decisions and better passes. That would start to look an awful lot like a possession system, tho.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

The 2010 Sabres under Ruff did an excellent job of moving the puck up through the neutral zone with short quick passes. Pegula wasted 15 million on Dufus. I hope he doesn't waste the next three seasons on him too.

 

[Paxon]

There's especially no excuse to not have seen Okposo-ROR-Reinhart doing more controlled zone entries. Those are exactly the players capable of doing it very well as a unit if allowed/instructed to.