Player Discussion Chris Kreider Part II: Manimal

[Edge]

I think of Mike Knuble when I consider the possible ramifications of dealing Kreider. Of course the return would be key.

Knuble was a strange case, even by hockey power forward standards.

Was an older rookie; played for three teams and only scored double digit goals twice (never more than 15); and then suddenly at the age of 30, he puts together 8 scoring seasons, before his output falls off at age 39. Finishes his career in his 40s.

It's certainly possible and that's always part of the risk with drafting and developing certain players. You put in a lot of time, only for someone else to enjoy the benefit.

 

[chosen]

The fact that he isn't scoring is bad.

That the fastest and strongest player on the roster can be invisible for an entire game is an indictment of his character.

I understand liking his potential, but the amount of wiggle room he is given by so many fans is ridiculous.

If he was a defenseman with the same physical attributes, he would be an absolute whipping boy for the fans.

 

[offdacrossbar]

i think kreider has been the biggest letdown this season.

for a guy who was expected to take that next step to becoming a "legit power forward who can score 30 plus" he's been rather um.... bad.

khayes has been bad. nash, as usual, bad, but ck perhaps the most bad.

 

[NikC]

Kreider has not established himself yet. I'm extremely disappointed in him this season. He's doing none of the things that made him successful in prior seasons.

Was he asked to change his game due to the goalie collision issues? His approach used to be direct and effective which maximized his physical tools.

I don't understand the impulse to trade a player with those physical attributes so quickly? He saved this teams @$$ in the playoffs several times. Rescued them from deaths door against the capitals last year.

There are other ways to get a player going again. It's on the coaching staff as well....

 

[chosen]

There are other ways to get a player going again. It's on the coaching staff as well....

I am so tired of this notion that it's up to anyone besides the player to make the player play well.

 

[RGY]

Is Kreids good to go saturday? Big game against the Caps. If we can win that one after beating Dallas it would speak volumes for this group.

 

[Revel]

I am so tired of this notion that it's up to anyone besides the player to make the player play well.

As though the millions of $$$ aren't enough self-motivation, lol. I totally agree with you.

Kreids just doesn't have it upstairs and doesn't have it in his hands. Unload him while he is young and he can still command a decent return.

 

[Mac n Gs]

Is Kreids good to go saturday? Big game against the Caps. If we can win that one after beating Dallas it would speak volumes for this group.

I believe that AV said he should be available. We'll find out for certain tomorrow at the morning skate.

 

[NikC]

I am so tired of this notion that it's up to anyone besides the player to make the player play well.

Never wrote that so maybe those notions are coming from your brain. I clearly stated he isn't doing the things that made him successful in the past, so I've acknowledged the player is accountable.

Also stating that the coaching staff should also be held accountable.

 

[NikC]

As though the millions of $$$ aren't enough self-motivation, lol. I totally agree with you.

Kreids just doesn't have it upstairs and doesn't have it in his hands. Unload him while he is young and he can still command a decent return.

Please. Like every player in the league is playing up to their Salary.

Not saying I would never move Kreider, but I'm not sure anyone you bring in to replace him wouldn't have a down year at some point.

 

[chosen]

Never wrote that so maybe those notions are coming from your brain. I clearly stated he isn't doing the things that made him successful in the past, so I've acknowledged the player is accountable.

Also stating that the coaching staff should also be held accountable.

You said that it's on the coaching staff, as well.

I disagreed.

The player is responsible for his own performance, especially after he has been in the league for multiple seasons.

 

[NikC]

You said that it's on the coaching staff, as well.

I disagreed.

The player is responsible for his own performance, especially after he has been in the league for multiple seasons.

Coaches aren't absolved from their responsibility. Didn't Tortorella push Lecavalier to be his best? Didn't Keenan push players to get them going?

I don't think the organization is giving up on Kreider the way some fans are.

 

[n8]

i think kreider has been the biggest letdown this season.

for a guy who was expected to take that next step to becoming a "legit power forward who can score 30 plus" he's been rather um.... bad.

khayes has been bad. nash, as usual, bad, but ck perhaps the most bad.

Kreider is just playing the salary cap game. It's a contract year for him and if he scores a lot, he knows he has to hold out for a big contract. He's being a team player so we can get him resigned for a lot less next summer.

 

[Brooklyn Ranger]

Coaches aren't absolved from their responsibility. Didn't Tortorella push Lecavalier to be his best? Didn't Keenan push players to get them going?

I don't think the organization is giving up on Kreider the way some fans are.

I agree--I don't think the organization is giving up on him and I also don't think his problems are only on him. Let's face it, this group has been having problems on the ice all season for whatever reason. It's impossible for one player to carry a whole team and it's insane to expect a player as young as Kreider to be the only sparkplug. Part of his problem is a team wide problem and until the veteran players work through their problems no one can expect Kreider to be breezing along at a 30 goal clip.

 

[TheDirtyH]

I agree--I don't think the organization is giving up on him and I also don't think his problems are only on him. Let's face it, this group has been having problems on the ice all season for whatever reason. It's impossible for one player to carry a whole team and it's insane to expect a player as young as Kreider to be the only sparkplug. Part of his problem is a team wide problem and until the veteran players work through their problems no one can expect Kreider to be breezing along at a 30 goal clip.

AV said several times before the start of the season that he saw Kreider as a potential top5 forward in the league.

That was the expectation Kreider had for himself this season, and the coaching staff's weren't far behind. He's been asked all season to carry his lines and be the focal point, if not the only point, of offense. He can be that player, but one summer of extra stickhndling work, a sports psychologist, and boxing lessons wasn't going to put him there. He's still raw, I don't think we'll know what we have in Kreider until he's in his late 20s.

 

[Brooklyn Ranger]

You said that it's on the coaching staff, as well.

I disagreed.

The player is responsible for his own performance, especially after he has been in the league for multiple seasons.

Come on chosen--who's been living up to the level they are capable of? Even Zucc has had stretches of poor play, Brassard doesn't show up every night, Nash doesn't seem to be able to stand out anymore and Stepan has been hurt for a bunch of the season too. That's the core of forwards you expect to produce in one way or another every game. It's not just on Kreider--he's still learning and can't be expected to carry a team that is misfiring in so many ways.

 

[Brooklyn Ranger]

AV said several times before the start of the season that he saw Kreider as a potential top5 forward in the league.

That was the expectation Kreider had for himself this season, and the coaching staff's weren't far behind. He's been asked all season to carry his lines and be the focal point, if not the only point, of offense. He can be that player, but one summer of extra stickhndling work, a sports psychologist, and boxing lessons wasn't going to put him there. He's still raw, I don't think we'll know what we have in Kreider until he's in his late 20s.

Pretty much, although I'm hoping that Kreider won't take another 4 or 5 years. Kreider is pretty much just at the beginning of the next phase of his career--he's been very disappointing up to this point, but half the season is left and alot of players have made up for long stretches of games where they didn't produce.

And I do think he's trying hard--it's just not translating into good play on the ice. Part of that is on the coaching staff as well, but this group has been so disfunctional for so much of the season that there is plenty of blame to go around.

 

[Revel]

I don't think anyone is asking Kreider to carry. That responsibility has generally been bestowed upon Nash. If anything, Kreider has been given too many passes because of physical attributes. He has underperformed all year and too many people reply with "but young" and "but manbeast". He is in his 7th year as a member of the Rangers organization. No more excuses.

 

[TheDirtyH]

I don't think anyone is asking Kreider to carry. That responsibility has generally been bestowed upon Nash. If anything, Kreider has been given too many passes because of physical attributes. He has underperformed all year and too many people reply with "but young" and "but manbeast". He is in his 7th year as a member of the Rangers organization. No more excuses.

Jesper Fast has been glued to his other wing all season. That's not someone who will help draw defensive assignments or produce in a top-6 role.

He's spent two games with Nash, and played well in those games. He played one game with Brass and Zucc and played well.

Kreider's phyiscal attributes are much more often used against him on these boards. His ability to take over games is tantalizing, and it also fuels people's frustration and impatience.

 

[Revel]

Jesper Fast has been glued to his other wing all season. That's not someone who will help draw defensive assignments or produce in a top-6 role.

He's spent two games with Nash, and played well in those games. He played one game with Brass and Zucc and played well.

Kreider's phyiscal attributes are much more often used against him on these boards. His ability to take over games is tantalizing, and it also fuels people's frustration and impatience.

A better reply than I hear from most. That said, I really don't buy the "It's everyone else's fault" excuse. The bulk of his game involves power moves. It's really all he's got. Now that the league has figured him out and doesn't let him get behind the D...he's left scratching his head at what to do next. Is this one-dimensional player really the type of guy we want to put on a pedestal?

 

[yrrebbor]

He seems to get worse every year. I'm beyond disappointed at his year so far.

 

[TheDirtyH]

A better reply than I hear from most. That said, I really don't buy the "It's everyone else's fault" excuse. The bulk of his game involves power moves. It's really all he's got. Now that the league has figured him out and doesn't let him get behind the D...he's left scratching his head at what to do next. Is this one-dimensional player really the type of guy we want to put on a pedestal?

Please stop twisting my words.

Kreider has clearly struggled all his own this season. His usage has not helped at all. He was being asked to play a role he simply wasn't ready to fill, and he's moved away from his strengths in accordance with his struggles.

There's no pedastal. And Kreider's appeal is actually the multitude of ways he can impact a game. Again, any support his tools gain him, bring with them as much impatience and frustration as any player on this team.

 

[Revel]

Please stop twisting my words.

Kreider has clearly struggled all his own this season. His usage has not helped at all. He was being asked to play a role he simply wasn't ready to fill, and he's moved away from his strengths in accordance with his struggles.

There's no pedastal. And Kreider's appeal is actually the multitude of ways he can impact a game. Again, any support his tools gain him, bring with them as much impatience and frustration as any player on this team.

I apologized in the Roster thread and will do it again in this one. My bad.

I do hear Bernmeister say that Kreider can open up the ice for multiple teammates, which might make sense to me. In effect, it's possible that Kreider's presence can enable those around him to play better. That said, I haven't seen it this year. He's been a black hole, sucking down the rest of his teammates. My new nickname for Kreids = Event Horizon.

 

[Ail]

My new nickname for Kreids = Event Horizon.

Brutal, that's a Tanner Glass level nickname.

I don't know what great expectations other have for Kreider, but in my mind the only thing I need Kreider to do is be a force out there on a game to game basis. Use the speed, use the strength. Make an impact on the game. I don't need him to score 30 goals, that would be great, but it's not expected. When he's on, the kid looks like a wrecking ball on skates and it's awesome to watch. Even if he isn't scoring he's making life hell on the other team. That's what needs to happen. How many times have we seen that this season? One?

 

[Mac n Gs]

Brutal, that's a Tanner Glass level nickname.

I don't know what great expectations other have for Kreider, but in my mind the only thing I need Kreider to do is be a force out there on a game to game basis. Use the speed, use the strength. Make an impact on the game. I don't need him to score 30 goals, that would be great, but it's not expected. When he's on, the kid looks like a wrecking ball on skates and it's awesome to watch. Even if he isn't scoring he's making life hell on the other team. That's what needs to happen. How many times have we seen that this season? One?

He needs to look at JT Miller and what he's been doing these last 8-10 games. He's getting engaged physically and making it hard for other teams to play against him. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect Kreider to use his natural physical abilities and play to his strengths. I could live with him going through a scoring drought as long as I see him engaged and moving his feet out there. He's not doing that.