Choose the next HC

[Zegras Zebra]

I'm pretty sure he actually had a winning record at the time he was fired that season. Might be wrong on that. I don't think he was the biggest problem in Toronto. This goes back to how much a coach can really do, and, really, what a coach can do comes down to what he's given to work with. Carlyle might have had tremendous resources off the ice, but on the ice he didn't have a very good roster. Still, if he wasn't the biggest problem, I'm not sure he was a positive either. That was a team with issues, and it certainly felt like he was floundering along with the rest of the team.

If this team were in a different situation, I mean, maybe Carlyle would make more sense. But I don't see Carlyle as the kind of coach that helps this team get over the hump, especially since he hasn't shown any real ability to do that in the past. When things go well, I think Carlyle does well, but when the team struggles, I've always felt Carlyle looks a little uncertain as to what to do. And by looks, I mean, he looks like it on the bench, with his nervous ticks and pacing. He looks unsure. Then he tinkers with things, and it kind of comes across as just throwing **** against the wall and seeing if it sticks.

For a team that, with some expect changes in the off-season, will likely still be expected to contend... well, he just isn't the guy I'd want. He's someone I'd look to more as a go-between at this point, to keep the spot warm until one of the better coaches becomes available. I'd prefer not to have a "bench warmer" coach at a time the team is looking to go all the way.

I completely agree, Carlyle is not the type of coach who can tinker with his lineup to try to find improvements over the current lineup. He is a decent NHL coach who can keep a team from going off the deep end, but he is unlikely to lead another team to a Stanley Cup. I remember when it was inevitable he would be fired from Toronto that he looked absolutely defeated every day on TSN.

The way I saw the Ducks at the start of the season was that we had about two more seasons to win the Cup before window begins to close. Mostly because by then Getzlaf, Perry, and Kesler will most likely start declining, and we will have to move one or more pieces from our D core for cap reasons. I don't think we are in a position to have a "bench warmer" coach at this time for Anaheim.

 

[Sojourn]

Up and coming team isn't the same as a favorite or even a contender and a up and coming team might not improve a lot to actually be a cup contender instead of a darkhorse.

Your evidence is just how well they did in the playoffs and expecting them to improve a lot without having traded for Pronger and going beyond a darkhorse to a contender. You think without the Pronger trade we would of been as good? If we had a few points less we would of been a middle of the pack team and it's easy or at least should be easy to see us being that way without Pronger.

Yes we stomped our way into reaching the western conference finals but Pronger was a very big part of that. The saying goes defense wins championships and he was a very big reason why we had such a great defense. Take him away and we only have 2 defenseman that had been workhorses in the playoffs and our 2nd defense pair would of been much worse. Our blueline was so good because of having 3 workhorse defenseman with 2 being elite.

We came charging out of the gate in 2006-2007 because we had Pronger who was a great defenseman and our team had a great belief in themselves to win and acquiring Pronger had boosted that.

One NHL player can have a big impact on a team maybe not quite like a NBA player but still big. Pronger was a big impact more then what you seem to be giving credit for. If we didn't acquire Pronger and made other moves we most likely wouldn't of been as good a team the Pronger trade was just so big of a move.

The Ducks team that won the Cup I consider the best cap era team. Without Pronger we most likely finish with a worse regular season record and don't win the Cup. If you think we would of still won the pacific division and won the Cup without Pronger then that is your opinion which I totally disagree with.

You seem to be intentionally skipping over points I'm trying to make, to repeat your Pronger mantra, but fine. Agree to disagree.

But I really don't think you're giving the rest of the team enough credit. You're giving so much weight to the one player over the rest of the team. How in the world did Pronger not win the Hart Trophy, if he was that important? That significant? How did he not earn more votes than Scott Niedermayer for the Norris?

And just so we're clear, I never said the bolded. Not once. Being a Cup contender doesn't require those things, and if it did, there would only be one Cup contender per season. What I said was that a team that entered the 2006-2007 season, having been on the upswing in the second half of the 2005-2006 season(they were), going to the Western Conference Finals(they did) would very likely be perceived as a Cup contender if Burke had attempted to improve the team in the off-season(he would have). Believe it or not, where they finished in the 2006-2007 season is not particularly relevant to the perception at the beginning of the season that the Ducks would have been a Cup contender.

 

[Sojourn]

I completely agree, Carlyle is not the type of coach who can tinker with his lineup to try to find improvements over the current lineup. He is a decent NHL coach who can keep a team from going off the deep end, but he is unlikely to lead another team to a Stanley Cup. I remember when it was inevitable he would be fired from Toronto that he looked absolutely defeated every day on TSN.

The way I saw the Ducks at the start of the season was that we had about two more seasons to win the Cup before window begins to close. Mostly because by then Getzlaf, Perry, and Kesler will most likely start declining, and we will have to move one or more pieces from our D core for cap reasons. I don't think we are in a position to have a "bench warmer" coach at this time for Anaheim.

I think the window will also depend on guys like Rakell and Lindholm. Well, and Gibson(or Andersen).

My personal opinion is that we're past the point where we should be expecting Getzlaf and Perry to carry us. Adding Kesler has improved our center depth, but his offensive game isn't his real strength. His two-way play, and his face-off ability is. If Getzlaf and Perry are struggling to score, the team likely is. That isn't a knock on Kesler. It's just his game. He's a great player, but he isn't especially creative, and his dynamic ability seems more on the physical side than overwhelming skill. Not to mention hard work. That dude works. It's awesome.

The bad part of that is that we'll be paying Getzlaf and Perry that kind of money, which was kind of necessary, but it still means we need to find ways to fill out the rest of the roster with less money(before you consider the budget).

I still think Getzlaf and Perry will be great players for us, and they'll continue to be our top offensive talents, but let's face it... we kind of wasted some of their best years with teams that lacked the offensive depth and/or a strong blue line. Even though I expect them to be very good, we need to be better elsewhere. It isn't just going to be them, and their decline. Based on that, I think our window could definitely be more than another year or two, but we'd accomplish that by committee, and with other players stepping up(or in the case of the younger players, just continuing to improve and develop).

That's my take, and for that, we need more than that "bench warmer" coach.

 

[Ducks in a row]

You seem to be intentionally skipping over points I'm trying to make, to repeat your Pronger mantra, but fine. Agree to disagree.

But I really don't think you're giving the rest of the team enough credit. You're giving so much weight to the one player over the rest of the team. How in the world did Pronger not win the Hart Trophy, if he was that important? That significant? How did he not earn more votes than Scott Niedermayer for the Norris?

And just so we're clear, I never said the bolded. Not once. Being a Cup contender doesn't require those things, and if it did, there would only be one Cup contender per season. What I said was that a team that entered the 2006-2007 season, having been on the upswing in the second half of the 2005-2006 season(they were), going to the Western Conference Finals(they did) would very likely be perceived as a Cup contender if Burke had attempted to improve the team in the off-season(he would have).

Do you think we would of been as good a team without making the Pronger trade? Yes or No? If no then do you think we still would of won the division? If no then we would of been a middle of the pack team during the regular season exactly like I do believe and we would be a dark horse to win the Cup.

Pronger missing a lot of games had a big part of it. 66 games played hard to win a Hart or Norris playing that few games. If he hadn't missed so much time who knows what would of happened with any of the voting.

So your reasoning is that the team was on the upswing in 2005-2006 2nd half of season and playoffs and expecting to get better with moves to improve the team would push them from darkhorse of which they had been to contender. Only agree with that if big moves like the one we actually made was made otherwise don't agree.

 

[Sojourn]

Do you think we would of been as good a team without making the Pronger trade? Yes or No? If no then do you think we still would of won the division? If no then we would of been a middle of the pack team during the regular season exactly like I do believe and we would be a dark horse to win the Cup.

Pronger missing a lot of games had a big part of it. 66 games played hard to win a Hart or Norris playing that few games. If he hadn't missed so much time who knows what would of happened with any of the voting.

So your reasoning is that the team was on the upswing in 2005-2006 2nd half of season and playoffs and expecting to get better with moves to improve the team would push them from darkhorse of which they had been to contender. Only agree with that if big moves like the one we actually made was made otherwise don't agree.

This is a strangely black and white point of view. Either we win the Division, or we're a middle of the pack team?

Pronger was never going to win the Hart that season. Ever. You could potentially argue the Norris, except you'd need to justify him winning over Niedermayer. Pronger very marginally out-scored Niedermayer on a point per game basis, with Niedermayer being Carlyle's go-to shutdown guy. So, you're left with +/- as the real basis of your argument. That's a tough sell, and that's before you consider Lidstrom. I'm not seeing it.

 

[Ducks in a row]

This is a strangely black and white point of view. Either we win the Division, or we're a middle of the pack team?

If we didn't win division we would of been behind the Red Wings,Predators,Sharks and Stars in points and behind the Wild in seed so......

 

[Sojourn]

If we didn't win division we would of been behind the Red Wings,Predators,Sharks and Stars in points and behind the Wild in seed so......

Come again?

Also, not "middle of the pack". Unless you're being overly literal, which you shouldn't be.

Unfortunately, the way the divisions were set up, and the amount of games they each played against division rivals, point standings weren't always an accurate representation of how good a team was. San Jose and Dallas were good teams. While a team like Vancouver was able to feast on some really crappy teams in the NW division. Detroit actually had a similar advantage for many years in the Central division. Detroit was also a good team, but many argued that some of their numbers were inflated by being able to wreck some really, really bad teams.

The Pacific was the toughest division in the Western Conference, with three good teams who beat the crap out of each other. The equivalent of 107 points in that division was not the same as 107 points in another. Being the 3rd seed in the Pacific, assuming that happened, doesn't make them middle of the pack.

Anyway, I'm not going to try to convince you that Pronger wasn't God anymore, so to each his own. In my opinion, that Ducks team was already quite good before they added Pronger, and I think I've provided enough evidence to support that. I'm also not sure I've ever seen an individual player take a team from fringe playoff status to Cup favorite in a single season. Certainly not in this era. Yet, that's what you're crediting Pronger as having done. So, moving on.

 

[Ducks in a row]

Come again?

Also, not "middle of the pack". Unless you're being overly literal, which you shouldn't be.

Unfortunately, the way the divisions were set up, and the amount of games they each played against division rivals, point standings weren't always an accurate representation of how good a team was. San Jose and Dallas were good teams. While a team like Vancouver was able to feast on some really crappy teams in the NW division. Detroit actually had a similar advantage for many years in the Central division. Detroit was also a good team, but many argued that some of their numbers were inflated by being able to wreck some really, really bad teams.

The Pacific was the toughest division in the Western Conference, with three good teams who beat the crap out of each other. The equivalent of 107 points in that division was not the same as 107 points in another. Being the 3rd seed in the Pacific, assuming that happened, doesn't make them middle of the pack.

Anyway, I'm not going to try to convince you that Pronger wasn't God anymore, so to each his own. In my opinion, that Ducks team was already quite good before they added Pronger, and I think I've provided enough evidence to support that. I'm also not sure I've ever seen an individual player take a team from fringe playoff status to Cup favorite in a single season. Certainly not in this era. Yet, that's what you're crediting Pronger as having done. So, moving on.

Correction behind the Canucks because they won their division. Still could of finished behind the Wild however only playoff team far away from us in points was Flames. Wouldn't of been surprised if we actually had 100+ points but finished 7th seed if we didn't have Pronger.

Yes points and seed doesn't always determine how good a team is.

NW had 3 playoff teams and 4th team with over 90 points only crappy team was Oilers. Yea the Central wasn't that good a division outside of the top 2 teams.

If we hadn't won the division and are 3rd place from the pacific we would of been a 6th seed at best.

Well the Pacific did have 2 crappy teams in the Kings and Coyotes but yea the Ducks,Sharks and Stars had been great teams.

The Ducks team was good before Pronger but not a cup contender good but darkhorse good. Just because of a good 2nd half and playoffs doesn't mean we had been Cup contender good. Pronger wasn't god good but he was damn good and he had lead the Oilers into beating us and almost winning the Stanley Cup the Ducks adding him was bigger then you seem to want to give credit for.

 

[Sojourn]

Unlikely, since I've already said it was a big deal.

But the difference between middle of the pack and Cup favorite? No. He was absolutely not that. Like I said, I can't think of any single player who could have done that. Where was this greatness in 2008 without Niedermayer and Selanne? Or in 2009? He was a great addition, but there is a reason he never won a Cup without that team. Came close, sure, but never went all the way, and he was on plenty "middle of the pack" teams.

Ray Bourque couldn't do that, and he was definitely a level beyond Niedermayer and Pronger both. Arguably beyond even Lidstrom.

 

[Ducks in a row]

Unlikely, since I've already said it was a big deal.

But the difference between middle of the pack and Cup favorite? No. He was absolutely not that. Like I said, I can't think of any single player who could have done that. Where was this greatness in 2008 without Niedermayer and Selanne? Or in 2009? He was a great addition, but there is a reason he never won a Cup without that team. Came close, sure, but never went all the way, and he was on plenty "middle of the pack" teams.

Ray Bourque couldn't do that, and he was definitely a level beyond Niedermayer and Pronger both. Arguably beyond even Lidstrom.

A darkhorse team adding a elite workhorse defenseman like Pronger was can make a team a favorite. He helped make us a favorite and we won.

Having Niedermayer a elite workhorse defenseman and Selanne gone for a good amount of time was a big blow in 2007-2008. Also Pahlsson missed a lot of games recovering from hernia surgery. In playoffs Perry missed half the games. Missing a 2nd line quality center with McDonald traded. R. Niedermayer only played 2 games.

2008-2009 we had been without a 2nd line quality center the entire season. In the playoffs without a 2nd line quality center and with Kunitz gone from trade we had only 4 top 6 quality forwards and beat the President trophy winning Sharks and took good Red Wings team to 7 games.

Pronger was very important to us more so then you want to admit. Without him we wouldn't of been a favorite in 2007 and most likely wouldn't of won the Cup. Right after trading Pronger we missed the playoffs hmm....

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

Unlikely, since I've already said it was a big deal.

But the difference between middle of the pack and Cup favorite? No. He was absolutely not that. Like I said, I can't think of any single player who could have done that. Where was this greatness in 2008 without Niedermayer and Selanne? Or in 2009? He was a great addition, but there is a reason he never won a Cup without that team. Came close, sure, but never went all the way, and he was on plenty "middle of the pack" teams.

Ray Bourque couldn't do that, and he was definitely a level beyond Niedermayer and Pronger both. Arguably beyond even Lidstrom.

To be fair, on those middle of the pack teams he was on, he was the biggest reason they made the finals. They had little business even winning a round otherwise.

I'd say the team wouldn't have been a cup contender without him joining. His addition turned an OK defense into the best in the league and one of the best in modern times. Had as much to do with the makeup of the team, at the time, as it did with his pure ability.

 

[Ducks in a row]

To be fair, on those middle of the pack teams he was on, he was the biggest reason they made the finals. They had little business even winning a round otherwise.

I'd say the team wouldn't have been a cup contender without him joining. His addition turned an OK defense into the best in the league. Had as much to do with the makeup of the team, at the time, as it did with his pure ability.

Yea without Pronger look at our blueline during the 2006-07 regular season with games played (top 6)

Scott Niedermayer 79
Sean O'Donnell 79
Joe Dipenta 76
Francois Beauchemin 71
Shane O'Brien 62 (then traded)
Kent Huskins 33

That is not that good of a blueline and no way are we a contender with it only a darkhorse. If we didn't trade for Pronger we would of needed to upgrade the blueline and we wouldn't of been able to get anyone as big a upgrade as Pronger was. Pronger joining the Ducks was huge for us.

 

[Sojourn]

Anaheim's defense in 2005-2006 was top 10 in goals against. That's just okay?

Tough crowd.

 

[Sojourn]

Yea without Pronger look at our blueline during the 2006-07 regular season with games played (top 6)

Scott Niedermayer 79
Sean O'Donnell 79
Joe Dipenta 76
Francois Beauchemin 71
Shane O'Brien 62 (then traded)
Kent Huskins 33

That is not that good of a blueline and no way are we a contender with it only a darkhorse. If we didn't trade for Pronger we would of needed to upgrade the blueline and we wouldn't of been able to get anyone as big a upgrade as Pronger was. Pronger joining the Ducks was huge for us.

With respect, you look really misinformed saying that. Have you even bothered to look at the blue line the previous season? You aren't posting the blue line they had. You're posting the blue line they ended up with, which included Pronger.

You can't possibly be suggesting that Burke would have ended up with that blue line, without the addition of Pronger. That's asinine.

 

[Ducks in a row]

With respect, you look really misinformed saying that. Have you even bothered to look at the blue line the previous season? You aren't posting the blue line they had. You're posting the blue line they ended up with, which included Pronger.

You can't possibly be suggesting that Burke would have ended up with that blue line, without the addition of Pronger. That's asinine.

2006 Stanley Cup playoffs blueline

Scott Niedermayer
Francois Beauchemin
Ruslan Salei
Sean O'Donnell
Vitaly Vishnevski
Joe Dipenta

Yea that was better then the lineup I listed for 2006-07 regular season without Pronger. If we didn't have Pronger I am sure we would of tried to upgrade the blueline another way but still don't see it being better then with Pronger. Pronger addition was huge for us but some reason you don't think it was that big a deal and can't understand why.

 

[snarktacular]

What's the point of this argument?

Carlyle could be the best coach in the world from 2005-2008. It doesn't change his lack of success recently. It also doesn't change the fact that the current players had already tuned him out.

 

[Sojourn]

What's the point of this argument?

Carlyle could be the best coach in the world from 2005-2008. It doesn't change his lack of success recently. It also doesn't change the fact that the current players had already tuned him out.

Meh. It's the off season for us. There isn't a ton to talk about.

 

[Sojourn]

2006 Stanley Cup playoffs blueline

Scott Niedermayer
Francois Beauchemin
Ruslan Salei
Sean O'Donnell
Vitaly Vishnevski
Joe Dipenta

Yea that was better then the lineup I listed for 2006-07 regular season without Pronger. If we didn't have Pronger I am sure we would of tried to upgrade the blueline another way but still don't see it being better then with Pronger. Pronger addition was huge for us but some reason you don't think it was that big a deal and can't understand why.

No, I don't think it was "that" big a deal, if "that" is the difference between being a middle of the pack team, and a Cup favorite.

I've said it was a big deal, despite your suggestion otherwise, but I think that the Ducks would have been a potential contender without him. Their blue line was pretty good, and it was lead by Norris finalist Scott Niedermayer. They had the best shutdown line in the league. They had two good scoring lines, and a pretty good 4th line. That had a pretty great goalie in Giguere. That all adds up to a contender. I think you'd have a hard time finding teams that had all that and weren't contenders. That's all without Pronger.

Here's what it comes down to for me... Pronger was good. He was very good. He was elite. But he wasn't the difference between middle of the pack and winning the Cup. He was the difference between Cup contender and winning the Cup. What I'm doing is giving credit to the 20+ other players who won, and not just the 1. I've even pointed out the precedence, and how one player has historically not been able to do that. Single players don't change middle of the pack teams into Cup favorites.

 

[Ducks in a row]

No, I don't think it was "that" big a deal, if "that" is the difference between being a middle of the pack team, and a Cup favorite.

I've said it was a big deal, despite your suggestion otherwise, but I think that the Ducks would have been a potential contender without him. Their blue line was pretty good, and it was lead by Norris finalist Scott Niedermayer. They had the best shutdown line in the league. They had two good scoring lines, and a pretty good 4th line. That had a pretty great goalie in Giguere. That all adds up to a contender. I think you'd have a hard time finding teams that had all that and weren't contenders. That's all without Pronger.

Here's what it comes down to for me... Pronger was good. He was very good. He was elite. But he wasn't the difference between middle of the pack and winning the Cup. He was the difference between Cup contender and winning the Cup. What I'm doing is giving credit to the 20+ other players who won, and not just the 1. I've even pointed out the precedence, and how one player has historically not been able to do that. Single players don't change middle of the pack teams into Cup favorites.

Without Pronger we would of been a middle of the pack team I mean look how close things had been during the regular season with him. If we had Salei instead of Pronger for example I don't see us winning the division. No division and we would of been a 6th seed team at best making us a middle of the pack kind of team. With Pronger we had been 2nd seed and went on to win the cup. Your underrating how much of a impact Pronger actually had been to us. He was a major part in what made us have the best top 4 on defense in the NHL. He helped provide more leadership and experience to the team. He made all those around him better. He helped to strengthen the teams belief in them wining the Cup even more. Yes we still had good players without him but we would not of been a favorite or a contender unless you water down the meaning for it.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

Anaheim's defense in 2005-2006 was top 10 in goals against. That's just okay?

Tough crowd.

They also had arguably the best goaltending tandem in the league. Really, I don't see that defense as being anything near special. The depth of it just wasn't very good, and a good top pairing alone didn't cover for that. But Pronger turning a mediocre second pairing into the equivalent of a good top pairing did cover for it.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

oh god i thought dirk was the only Carlyle guy left

 

[70sSanO]

It's always Niedermayer and Pronger, Niedermayer and Pronger, etc.

What about Joe DiPenta?

He already had a playoff run in 05/06. And nobody can deny that his skating alone intimidated most teams.

John

...LOL

 

[alcolol]

 

[Duck Off]

I just want the Flames to hurry up and hire RC. I respect the hell out of him, and will always be grateful to him for our cup, but I don't think he's a great coach, and I definitely don't think we should get him again.

 

[AngelDuck]

I love Carlyle. Too many bridges have been burnt for him to coach this team though probably.

Sutter's kinda like Carlyle but better IMO