Chiarot - Seider

[norrisnick]

Yea - I don't know how Mo gets a perpetual pass. Somehow his bad passes are Chia's fault? I suppose he made him pinch at the wrong time, blind pass the puck, and chase in the corners too.

He is a kid and still has happy hands. Sure, he'll develop but why not be accountable in the process? Just pair them both with partners who bail each of them out rather than mirror images.

Who's saying anything about a perpetual pass? Seider is by far the most important player we have moving forward (Edit - barring Edvinsson having a similar impact whenever he gets a chance and is also an NHL #1 guy). It is imperative we find a way to use him where he is effective. Having him in a pairing that doesn't suit him does no one any good. Chia is probably better off with a safe and simple partner as well. Both of these guys are wired to be THE guy out there. Putting them together is dumb.

 

[14ari13]

They have been bad, but still it's also somekind of statistical fluke, when they can get 2 other pairing overachieve drastically, at same time when one pair takes all the bullets on themselves and will underachieve drastically.

It has been somekind of line-matching thing too, which has overemphasized their bad stats.

Would like to see other kind of pairings, to get some individual data. Is it Chiarot who would drag Hronek down? Would Määttä put Seider to shine? We haven't seen these. Not until the pair will be split, we can't judge them in a fair way.

People who blaim only Chiarot, are blind. Seider has been as stupid and moron on the own end as Chiarot.

Seider will be future Hall of Famer, and he'll learn a lot about this period on his career.

How not to do things.

**

I always remember when Nick Lidström said how he learned a lot from Brad McCrimmon how to play defence an learned a lot from Paul Coffey how to play offence. After he was paired with Larry Murphy, then everything was learned and it just clicked.

Somebody, I don't remember where it was, but someone reversed it: "I learned a lot with McCrimmon how not to play offence and I learned a lot from Paul Coffey how not to play defence."

We have been joking with this for over a decade.

The stats of Osterle Walman and Hronek Maatta looks unbelievably great.
This has to do with how the coach uses them.
Seider has struggled and the chemistry with Chiarot is not good, but there is no way the other 2 pairings get so much better stats.
Walman would look brutal on top pairing. Maatta struggled too as far as I remember.
What coach can do is
Chiarot Hronek
Maatta Seider
Walman Osterle

For what ever reason Osterle looks very solid on the right side, not so much on the left side.

I'm pretty sure DDK would come back if you asked nicely

Seider would look definitely better. Chiarot and Seider don't click together. But I am not against keeping them together. They have to figure it out.

 

[13to40]

Chiarot is a very good 3/4.

He’s playing in a position over his weight class.

The problem is not as much chemistry as it is just players playing a bit too high up the lineup.

Seider is not playing at the same level as last year. It’s not a secret to anyone. Last year he came out of the gates ready to set the league on fire. This year so far he’s coming out of the gates more like a soft fart…

Sophomore slumps are very common, other teams start figuring out your weaknesses, progression might not be as quick as the player hopes, confidence is lost… many factors for this.

Seider will be the top pairing D on this team for as long as he serves as a Red Wing, but this year he isn’t performing at the same level as last year and I don’t think it has as much to do as who he’s playing with.

I don’t think have a problem at all with the first two defensive lines for the team, it’s the 3rd line that’s a scare despite what total +/- say for all you analytical admirers.

 

[jaster]

Great, who's in charge of letting the staff know we fixed the pairings?

I sent an email. No reply yet.

 

[ricky0034]

Is it Chiarot's fault that Seider sucks in OT as well? Just asking.

honestly blaming either of them is probably speaking on it in too charged a way

sometimes pairings just don't work....and it's bizarre just how stubborn the Wings are about sticking with this one

 

[TheOtherOne]

On the PP, there are zero plays designed with a point shot. So Mo doesn't shoot. And since Mo doesn't shoot, the flanks are easier to defend. It looks and feels like Mo was told he's not an option to shoot on the PP so he doesn't even make it look like he might. Which makes it blatantly obvious to all involved that he's going to pass.

I can't figure this out.

I'm so nostalgic for the Lidstrom assist tipped in by Homer. I feel like we haven't even so much as attempted that in a decade. I mean, I get it, we don't have a Lidstrom. And we don't have a Homer for that matter. Still. It's nice to have the option, even if it's less effective than it once was.

But someone posted on the main boards about how slapshots from the point have actually disappeared league-wide? Because analytics said it was bad, or something? I mean if the data says that I have to believe it. But it's hard to believe it. We've seen it work. Isn't it useful to try?

Just an hour ago Chiarot shot from the blue line and Moose tipped it in. Why is this such a rare occurrence? Why can't we do that more often? I just don't get it.

It feels almost similar to the perpetual backtracking in OT. Like some analytics guy said "sometimes, when you try that, a turnover happens and you get scored on." And suddenly all coaches started nodding their heads and ripping it out of their playbooks entirely.

 

[norrisnick]

I can't figure this out.

I'm so nostalgic for the Lidstrom assist tipped in by Homer. I feel like we haven't even so much as attempted that in a decade. I mean, I get it, we don't have a Lidstrom. And we don't have a Homer for that matter. Still. It's nice to have the option, even if it's less effective than it once was.

But someone posted on the main boards about how slapshots from the point have actually disappeared league-wide? Because analytics said it was bad, or something? I mean if the data says that I have to believe it. But it's hard to believe it. We've seen it work. Isn't it useful to try?

Just an hour ago Chiarot shot from the blue line and Moose tipped it in. Why is this such a rare occurrence? Why can't we do that more often? I just don't get it.

It feels almost similar to the perpetual backtracking in OT. Like some analytics guy said "sometimes, when you try that, a turnover happens and you get scored on." And suddenly all coaches started nodding their heads and ripping it out of their playbooks entirely.

Even if it's not an optimal scoring play, you have to make the PK defend it. It opens up everything else. And sometimes blasting pucks into a pile to start some chaos is the way to go. Like Maatta's goal. It was like 6 shots from everywhere that finally ended up with his tap in. Unless you're blasting it into the shins of the guy right in front of you, taking the shot is rarely a bad option.

So yeah, I think sometimes coaches overthink the shit out of things

 

[Oddbob]

I can't figure this out.

I'm so nostalgic for the Lidstrom assist tipped in by Homer. I feel like we haven't even so much as attempted that in a decade. I mean, I get it, we don't have a Lidstrom. And we don't have a Homer for that matter. Still. It's nice to have the option, even if it's less effective than it once was.

But someone posted on the main boards about how slapshots from the point have actually disappeared league-wide? Because analytics said it was bad, or something? I mean if the data says that I have to believe it. But it's hard to believe it. We've seen it work. Isn't it useful to try?

Just an hour ago Chiarot shot from the blue line and Moose tipped it in. Why is this such a rare occurrence? Why can't we do that more often? I just don't get it.

It feels almost similar to the perpetual backtracking in OT. Like some analytics guy said "sometimes, when you try that, a turnover happens and you get scored on." And suddenly all coaches started nodding their heads and ripping it out of their playbooks entirely.

I think teams cover the shot from the point a lot better than in the past and either side one timers work better right now at getting goals. Teams basically all cover the high point with one guy on the PP, where as in the past they seemed to cover closer to the net.

 

[14ari13]

Chiarot is a very good 3/4.

He’s playing in a position over his weight class.

The problem is not as much chemistry as it is just players playing a bit too high up the lineup.

Seider is not playing at the same level as last year. It’s not a secret to anyone. Last year he came out of the gates ready to set the league on fire. This year so far he’s coming out of the gates more like a soft fart…

Sophomore slumps are very common, other teams start figuring out your weaknesses, progression might not be as quick as the player hopes, confidence is lost… many factors for this.

Seider will be the top pairing D on this team for as long as he serves as a Red Wing, but this year he isn’t performing at the same level as last year and I don’t think it has as much to do as who he’s playing with.

I don’t think have a problem at all with the first two defensive lines for the team, it’s the 3rd line that’s a scare despite what total +/- say for all you analytical admirers.

It seems we need one more good defenceman. We have 5, but we need 6.

Maatta and Hronek work because Maatta plays safe stay at home. Chiarot does not do that. Probably the coach does not want him to do that either so Seider develops his defensive game.

 

[theYman]

Ch-Ch-Ch Chia! Get the new Chiarot Chia Pet just in time for Christmas.

 

[14ari13]

Did Lalonde go with
Chiarot Seider
Walman Hronek
Maatta Osterle?

 

[norrisnick]

Did Lalonde go with
Chiarot Seider
Walman Hronek
Maatta Osterle?

That's been the group ever since Olli came back from pneumonia.

 

[14ari13]

That's been the group ever since Olli came back from pneumonia.

Nobody mentioned it in the thread. Or did I miss it?
I just watched the game now.

 

[norrisnick]

Nobody mentioned it in the thread. Or did I miss it?
I just watched the game now.

I mean, that was the 3rd game in a row with those pairs.

 

[14ari13]

I mean, that was the 3rd game in a row with those pairs.

Strange nobody mentioned it in this thread which started yesterday

 

[norrisnick]

Strange nobody mentioned it in this thread which started yesterday

Because those aren't pairings anyone wants?

I'm guessing the assumption is that Olli/Hronek gets put back together once Olli is fully back. 2 week illness puts anyone on their ass let alone a pro-athlete.

 

[14ari13]

Because those aren't pairings anyone wants?

I'm guessing the assumption is that Olli/Hronek gets put back together once Olli is fully back. 2 week illness puts anyone on their ass let alone a pro-athlete.

I think so too, though I won't be surprised if they are kept like this until they lose a game.

 

[norrisnick]

I think so too, though I won't be surprised if they are kept like this until they lose a game.

If only that held true for the top pairing... we'd have come up with something else by now.

 

[Henkka]

It will be interesting to see, who will finally be the odd man out.

I like both Walman and Määttä, and Chiarot is locked for years. Edvinsson is coming. The left side has too many people.

Ideally, Yzerman should find a veteran Righty to 3rd pair, mentoring mostly Edvinsson.

So Määttä or Walman should be the trade baits. At this point, I'd extend Määttä, because he has been better at heavier 2nd pair workload. Walman shines as 3rd pair guy, but did not get anyhow to Määttä-level with Hronek at 2nd pair.

In my perfect world, both Oesterle and Walman are traded, vet RhD brought in, and Edvinsson promoted up.

Chiarot - Seider
Määttä - Hronek
Edvinsson - RhD vet

Don't know could this happen at this season, but almost for sure, that's the structure after next off-season.

2023 off-season UFAs:

RD John Klingberg, ANA, 30y (not really interested in him anymore, we have great PP QBs, guy just sucks defensively too bad)
RD Erik Johnson, COL, 35y (too old, will retire?)
RD Matt Dumba, MIN, 28v (interesting guy, could be out because of Minnesota cap hell, and Calen Addison is cheap & young replament) Maybe best long-term value player in the UFA market
RD Damon Severson, NJD, 28y (could be odd man out, Marino and Hamilton are signed for years, and RD Nemec coming)
RD Travis Hamonic, OTT, 32y
RD Radgo Gudas, FLO, 33y (maybe most ideal fit for 3rd pair role, real pain-in-the ass player)
RD Nick Jensen, WSH, 32y
RD Justin Holl, TOR, 31y (guy who has been playing over his head for seasons, maybe right fit could be 3rd pair role)
RD Scott Mayfield, NYI, 30y
RD Anton Strålman, BOS, 36y (yeah, too old, but man, former Tampa guy and great swedish mentor for Ed)
RD Trevor van Riemsdyk, WSH, 31y

Quite a lot of right-handed options at next summer. Yzerman would find a guy for sure.

 

[norrisnick]

It will be interesting to see, who will finally be the odd man out.

I like both Walman and Määttä, and Chiarot is locked for years. Edvinsson is coming. The left side has too many people.

Ideally, Yzerman should find a veteran Righty to 3rd pair, mentoring mostly Edvinsson.

So Määttä or Walman should be the trade baits. At this point, I'd extend Määttä, because he has been better at heavier 2nd pair workload. Walman shines as 3rd pair guy, but did not get anyhow to Määttä-level with Hronek at 2nd pair.

In my perfect world, both Oesterle and Walman are traded, vet RhD brought in, and Edvinsson promoted up.

Chiarot - Seider
Määttä - Hronek
Edvinsson - RhD vet

Don't know could this happen at this season, but almost for sure, that's the structure after next off-season.

Ed should never play on the 3rd pairing. That's a waste.

 

[Henkka]

Ed should never play on the 3rd pairing. That's a waste.

That's not a waste.

That's a contender.

Tampa Bay "wasted" Sergachev at 3rd pair for 5 years. What was the outcome?

It just means that you don't have any weak pairs. That's how perfect teams are build and that's how our perfect Yzerman-Detroit will be built.

 

[norrisnick]

That's not a waste.

That's a contender.

Tampa Bay wasted Sergachev for 3rd pair for 5 years. What was the outcome?

Tampa had 2 better LHD than Sergachev. The Wings don't have 2 better LHD than Edvinsson.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

RD Erik Johnson, COL, 35y
RD Matt Dumba, MIN, 28
RD Damon Severson, NJD, 28y
RD Radgo Gudas, FLO, 33y
RD Nick Jensen, WSH, 32y
RD Justin Holl, TOR, 31y
RD Scott Mayfield, NYI

Good list. I'd go for any of the above. Preferably Dumba and Severson. Mayfield would be solid as well.

 

[norrisnick]

Good list. I'd go for any of the above. Preferably Dumba and Severson. Mayfield would be solid as well.

Problem is neither of those guys will end up signing for less than $5M AAV. And why are we paying that much for the 3rd pairing RHD?

Mayfield ~$2MAAV wouldn't be awful.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Problem is neither of those guys will end up signing for less than $5M AAV. And why are we paying that much for the 3rd pairing RHD?

Mayfield ~$2MAAV wouldn't be awful.

If Severson costs 5 million while we have a ton of cap space then I'm totally fine with that. It would give Detroit one of the deepest defense corps in the entire league.

Edvinsson - Seider
Maatta - Hronek
Chiarot - Severson

Granted, even with Mayfield that would still be a solid group.