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Champions Hockey League for 2021/2022

Lambo said:
Budget to budget here! Sweden and Finland have such an enormously strong offspring in their leagues that this balances out a lot. Switzerland, on the other hand, has slacked off enormously when it comes to youth work. If I remember correctly, 0 Swiss players were drafted in 2020 and 3 players in 2021. This is nothing. The NL mainly benefits from the foreigners. Below average NHL players who are top players in the NL etc. The budget has little meaning in Europe (outside the KHL).
Especially when it comes to the performance of a league.
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Budget is everything. Whether you like it or not, money talks. Just look at the previous episodes of this competition. SHL teams nowhere near competitive. KHL dominated, then Swiss and Finnish teams. SHL always was the best development league but when in a true best on best tournament they don't have a chance. Don't ask me why this league can't make any money though. They should have way higher attendance and budgets. Again, as professional as they are on the sports side, on the business side they're ridiculously bad. In Switzerland it's the other way around. Teams have so much money they don't care about proper coaching or sport structure. This even goes back to juniors. This is why more and more Swiss kids now go elsewhere at a young age. But even then they still get discriminated in NHL drafts due to their Swiss passport. Lian Bichsel will be the newest player to go way too late.

No doubt SHL and Liiga are trending more towards development league than the NL but the lone problem in Switzerland is coaching. NHL drafts also don't quite tell the real story because like I said, nhl teams just don't really want to draft players outta Switzerland or Swiss born players anymore. Players like Hofmann, Brunner or Haas who escape back to Switzerland despite at least adequate showings didn't really help the case.
 
Hinterland said:
In earlier, better paid competitions, Swedish teams were nowhere near competitive. It's a financial thing as Swiss teams are operating with about 4 times higher budgets and some KHL teams have even more. Of course priorities are different. The prize money of the current competition may be interesting for Scandinavian teams but it's no more than tips for teams operating with 4 or 5 times higher budgets.
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Which earlier better paid competitions?
 
Hinterland said:
Budget is everything. Whether you like it or not, money talks. Just look at the previous episodes of this competition. SHL teams nowhere near competitive. KHL dominated, then Swiss and Finnish teams. SHL always was the best development league but when in a true best on best tournament they don't have a chance. Don't ask me why this league can't make any money though. They should have way higher attendance and budgets. Again, as professional as they are on the sports side, on the business side they're ridiculously bad. In Switzerland it's the other way around. Teams have so much money they don't care about proper coaching or sport structure. This even goes back to juniors. This is why more and more Swiss kids now go elsewhere at a young age. But even then they still get discriminated in NHL drafts due to their Swiss passport. Lian Bichsel will be the newest player to go way too late.

No doubt SHL and Liiga are trending more towards development league than the NL but the lone problem in Switzerland is coaching. NHL drafts also don't quite tell the real story because like I said, nhl teams just don't really want to draft players outta Switzerland or Swiss born players anymore. Players like Hofmann, Brunner or Haas who escape back to Switzerland despite at least adequate showings didn't really help the case.
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I think you overestimate the NL and Swiss hockey immensely. I see no further development. The NHL dominates everything anyway and then there's the KHL and the rest of Europe has to see that the youth work is good enough. And that has waned in Switzerland. Germany e.g. caught up with Switzerland. The DEL is not much weaker than the NL.
 
Hinterland said:
Still, that's not even half of the NL clubs budget and KHL teams obviously have even more. Again, this explains why SHL teams are more interested in that competition than teams with higher budgets.
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The prize money have historically been so insignificant that it didn’t even cover travelling expenditures. Thanks to the SHL that seems ro change however, next season will have €3 million in prize money.
 
Hinterland said:
Budget is everything. Whether you like it or not, money talks. Just look at the previous episodes of this competition. SHL teams nowhere near competitive. KHL dominated, then Swiss and Finnish teams. SHL always was the best development league but when in a true best on best tournament they don't have a chance. Don't ask me why this league can't make any money though. They should have way higher attendance and budgets. Again, as professional as they are on the sports side, on the business side they're ridiculously bad. In Switzerland it's the other way around. Teams have so much money they don't care about proper coaching or sport structure. This even goes back to juniors. This is why more and more Swiss kids now go elsewhere at a young age. But even then they still get discriminated in NHL drafts due to their Swiss passport. Lian Bichsel will be the newest player to go way too late.

No doubt SHL and Liiga are trending more towards development league than the NL but the lone problem in Switzerland is coaching. NHL drafts also don't quite tell the real story because like I said, nhl teams just don't really want to draft players outta Switzerland or Swiss born players anymore. Players like Hofmann, Brunner or Haas who escape back to Switzerland despite at least adequate showings didn't really help the case.
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The SHL didnt exist back then. This is ancient history.
 
vorky said:
Regarding the bold, I found an interview with Peter Zahner (ZSC) to Forbes in 2018. He says, ZSC has a budget of 32 million francs, including all junior & kids teams. ZSC budget for NL team is 22 million francs, that includes around 12 million francs on players salaries. Lowest budget for players salaries in NL is around 6-7 million francs.
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So they are barely ahead of SHL teams.
 
Hinterland said:
Nobody says that. They just can't hide it. You can see that those games are a punishment for them. The top players either get the game off or limited ice time because if they'd get more, they'd half ass it anyway in order not to get hurt or waste too much energy. I don't know about the CHL tv deals but the tv deal with Swiss tv broadcaster mysports is worth 35 millions per year. That's a pretty big window and clubs get 1,6 millions per year. Of course that's their priority. Wes Brot ich ess, des Lied ich sing.
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The SHL has more lucrative media rights than the NL, each club get €4.5 million/season and by 2024 each club will receive ~€6.5 million/season.
 
OskarOskarius said:
So they are barely ahead of SHL teams.
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Actually not. On previous page you provided a link with SHL clubs salaries. It says just one team has 100M SEK (9,5M Euro), average is 80M SEK (7,5M Euro). While ZSC has around 12M Francs (11,5M Euro) on salaries. Plus, you need to take the taxes into account. So, de facto, the difference is huge.
 
OskarOskarius said:
The SHL has more lucrative media rights than the NL, each club get €4.5 million/season and by 2024 each club will receive ~€6.5 million/season.
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So they get 4.5 millions each but the average budget is 7.5? That's horrible man. Without this deal, the league would generate almost no money. Awful.
 
OskarOskarius said:
Before SHL and to make it worse that Lions team would not be able to play today due to cap on foreign players. You are basically proving my point. The NL isn’t competitive because Swiss players are subpar. With only four foreign players you can’t compete with SHL teams.
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Why would that team not be able to play? Do you think the cap on imports is something new? The opposite is the case. We're actually trending in the opposite direction. I can't say I like it. The lone problem in Swiss hockey is coaching. By allowing more imports you don't solve that problem. You have to be lucky if you don't create new ones.

Anyway, you're actually proving my point. Thank you for that.
 
vorky said:
Actually not. On previous page you provided a link with SHL clubs salaries. It says just one team has 100M SEK (9,5M Euro), average is 80M SEK (7,5M Euro). While ZSC has around 12M Francs (11,5M Euro) on salaries. Plus, you need to take the taxes into account. So, de facto, the difference is huge.
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And living expenses in Zurich is extremely high.
 
Hinterland said:
So they get 4.5 millions each but the average budget is 7.5? That's horrible man. Without this deal, the league would generate almost no money. Awful.
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SHL generates more money than NL, and that gap will increase by 2024 when income from media rights will increase even more.
 
OskarOskarius said:
SHL generates more money than NL, and that gap will increase by 2024 when income from media rights will increase even more.
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If the SHL generates more money, then why is the average budget only about half of the NL's average budget and why do the clubs generate almost no money besides the tv deal? That's beyond awful, man. I didn't know but it seems like they're depending on that deal completely.
 
Hinterland said:
Why would that team not be able to play? Do you think the cap on imports is something new? The opposite is the case. We're actually trending in the opposite direction. I can't say I like it. The lone problem in Swiss hockey is coaching. By allowing more imports you don't solve that problem. You have to be lucky if you don't create new ones.

Anyway, you're actually proving my point. Thank you for that.
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I see so the problem is no longer players not giving a shit because the prize money isn’t big enough. It’s the coaches fault.
 
Hinterland said:
If the SHL generates more money, then why is the average budget only about half of the NL's average budget and why do the clubs generate almost no money besides the tv deal? That's beyond awful, man. I didn't know but it seems like they're depending on that deal completely.
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The SHL isn’t like the NL. The clubs here are membership owned, so we don’t have sugar daddies like you ladies. I know that sounds awful but being independent is actually quite nice.
 
Hinterland said:
Why would that team not be able to play? Do you think the cap on imports is something new? The opposite is the case. We're actually trending in the opposite direction. I can't say I like it. The lone problem in Swiss hockey is coaching. By allowing more imports you don't solve that problem. You have to be lucky if you don't create new ones.

Anyway, you're actually proving my point. Thank you for that.
Click to expand...



This problem is called know-how, not bad coaching. That's what the Swedes and Finns have, not the Swiss. And this is something you can't buy for money, it takes a long time to build. It's not like imports that always go to Switzerland for a salary. See how many years Switzerland has been at the international level of black horses, it's never a favorite. In this tournament, Switzerland may have a medal due to the different strengths of the usual favorites, but if the top 5 countries are arrived by NHL players in May, Switzerland will probably end up without a medal again. But I turned to the national team.
The present reminds me of football and the English league. They also had absolutely great financial opportunities for a long time, they could pay anything but for a long time old and incompetent coaches like Allardyce or Bruce trained there. Only when they understood that it is not enough to pay only quality foreigners but also have to invest in coaches, then they ran away from everyone. If you look today at who trains the absolute best teams in England, it is the Spaniards, the Germans and the Moyes, who is not an Englishman but a Scot. But Swiss hockey will never reach this state, so it can have more money for import salaries, it can build great money and a brand, but it will not succeed in a direct confrontation against the Swedes. Every season, players from Sweden go to the NHL / AHL, KHL and just NL. How many players leave the NL every year?
 
Elias40 said:
This problem is called know-how, not bad coaching. That's what the Swedes and Finns have, not the Swiss. And this is something you can't buy for money, it takes a long time to build. It's not like imports that always go to Switzerland for a salary. See how many years Switzerland has been at the international level of black horses, it's never a favorite. In this tournament, Switzerland may have a medal due to the different strengths of the usual favorites, but if the top 5 countries are arrived by NHL players in May, Switzerland will probably end up without a medal again. But I turned to the national team.
The present reminds me of football and the English league. They also had absolutely great financial opportunities for a long time, they could pay anything but for a long time old and incompetent coaches like Allardyce or Bruce trained there. Only when they understood that it is not enough to pay only quality foreigners but also have to invest in coaches, then they ran away from everyone. If you look today at who trains the absolute best teams in England, it is the Spaniards, the Germans and the Moyes, who is not an Englishman but a Scot. But Swiss hockey will never reach this state, so it can have more money for import salaries, it can build great money and a brand, but it will not succeed in a direct confrontation against the Swedes. Every season, players from Sweden go to the NHL / AHL, KHL and just NL. How many players leave the NL every year?
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I have no clue what you were talking about on the rest of your post but re the last sentence it's pretty easy. Money and convenience. If you can't earn more money elsewhere, why would you leave? In Switzerland, you earn a shitload of money, in most cases even more than you'd initially get in NHL/KHL. It's also very convenient to play in Switzerland because there are no flights or nights in hotels. You can sleep in your own proper bed every night. So only the most dedicated and ambitious players are even interested in moving on. The rest is rather gonna stay in Switzerland or they get sick of playing elsewhere and escape back to Switzerland pretty quickly like Haas, Brunner or Hofmann lately.
 
Hinterland said:
I have no clue what you were talking about on the rest of your post but re the last sentence it's pretty easy. Money and convenience. If you can't earn more money elsewhere, why would you leave? In Switzerland, you earn a shitload of money, in most cases even more than you'd initially get in NHL/KHL. It's also very convenient to play in Switzerland because there are no flights or nights in hotels. You can sleep in your own proper bed every night. So only the most dedicated and ambitious players are even interested in moving on. The rest is rather gonna stay in Switzerland or they get sick of playing elsewhere and escape back to Switzerland pretty quickly like Haas, Brunner or Hofmann lately.
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That's right, it's a golden cage. You don't have to travel, you can sleep in your own bed and they'll pay you well ... so there's no reason to get out of the comfort zone you have. In fact, you will be satisfied with what you wrote ... you are assured of comfort and money. But security kills, it leads to stagnation. You wrote above that the Swiss are discriminated against in the draft because they have a Swiss passport. I don't think so at all, it's mainly because the Swiss have never had any significant success at the WJC or the U18. Sure, some great Swiss play in the NHL, we all know who. But there are desperately few of them compared to the world's best.
The Swedish league has a different ownership structure than the Swiss league, yet the league has its own quality and is rightly considered the second best in Europe after the KHL. And the only chance to compare the leagues is CL, because it's a sports aspect that money can't balance. So the funds at the disposal of the Swiss are actually desperately unsuccessful and they are throwing money out the window, you agree? But sure, you will write to me again that when the prize money for Swiss clubs is interesting, they will go 100% to win.
And one last question ... if you are a young Swiss player with the ambition to play NL in your club, but your club prefers to pay foreigners and you can only hope in a few minutes in the fourth attack, what will you do? What are your options?
 
Elias40 said:
That's right, it's a golden cage. You don't have to travel, you can sleep in your own bed and they'll pay you well ... so there's no reason to get out of the comfort zone you have. In fact, you will be satisfied with what you wrote ... you are assured of comfort and money. But security kills, it leads to stagnation. You wrote above that the Swiss are discriminated against in the draft because they have a Swiss passport. I don't think so at all, it's mainly because the Swiss have never had any significant success at the WJC or the U18. Sure, some great Swiss play in the NHL, we all know who. But there are desperately few of them compared to the world's best.
The Swedish league has a different ownership structure than the Swiss league, yet the league has its own quality and is rightly considered the second best in Europe after the KHL. And the only chance to compare the leagues is CL, because it's a sports aspect that money can't balance. So the funds at the disposal of the Swiss are actually desperately unsuccessful and they are throwing money out the window, you agree? But sure, you will write to me again that when the prize money for Swiss clubs is interesting, they will go 100% to win.
And one last question ... if you are a young Swiss player with the ambition to play NL in your club, but your club prefers to pay foreigners and you can only hope in a few minutes in the fourth attack, what will you do? What are your options?
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It's all bullshit talk. The only way to make this tournament attractive to teams other than the ones from development leagues with smaller budgets is to at least triple the prize money. That would get you in the range of the 08/09 competition which was the last true best on best competition in European club hockey. If that can't be arranged, SHL will continue to dominate since they're the strongest development teams still interested in the bit of money on offer. You can change the system or the number of teams but none of that will change anything. The only way to win back the KHL and to get the bigger budget teams to compete is to up the prize money. Like it or not but that's the reality. Money rules. Hockey isn't just a sport, it's also a business. Teams want to make, not lose money.
 
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