Proposal: CGY Kadri for CAR Kotkaniemi+

[bleedgreen]

Not the same situation as Burns. Burns was much older and on a declined. Kadri is in his prime and 7M is actually a fantastic deal for what he provides. Yes, term is the problem but the Flames can help with that.

Anyway, I agree, Kadri is for a team to win it NOW and the Canes are not so I agreed, they wont do it

Burns was heavily retained and we gave nothing for him. We gave up the equivalent of Brendan Lemieux and an older c level prospect and San Jose added a minor leaguer. The Canes also had cap space set aside for such a move and a need to pair someone with Slavin who can clearly help a partner like Burns.

The Canes don’t have cap space even if Kuzy retires, they still have to sign Jarvis, Necas and Drury. This deal involves giving up a roster player and adding over two million in cap and you think we’re adding.

Your petty cheap shots don’t mean a thing, I remember what it’s like to have a team that has no chance of competing. I’d like to think I handled it better than you are.

The Flames overpaid on term to get Kadri. Now you’re asking someone else to do the same. It’s not a surprise he’s performed well in the first half of the deal, everyone expected that! No one expects him to perform in the back half. Of course you’re trying to get more value for him while he’s still performing. You don’t need the cap space now but you might two years from now. It’s your contract, don’t blame us for not liking the look of it.

 

[Double Dion]

Burns was heavily retained and we gave nothing for him. We gave up the equivalent of Brendan Lemieux and an older c level prospect and San Jose added a minor leaguer. The Canes also had cap space set aside for such a move and a need to pair someone with Slavin who can clearly help a partner like Burns.

The Canes don’t have cap space even if Kuzy retires, they still have to sign Jarvis, Necas and Drury. This deal involves giving up a roster player and adding over two million in cap and you think we’re adding.

Your petty cheap shots don’t mean a thing, I remember what it’s like to have a team that has no chance of competing. I’d like to think I handled it better than you are.

The Flames overpaid on term to get Kadri. Now you’re asking someone else to do the same. It’s not a surprise he’s performed well in the first half of the deal, everyone expected that! No one expects him to perform in the back half. Of course you’re trying to get more value for him while he’s still performing. You don’t need the cap space now but you might two years from now. It’s your contract, don’t blame us for not liking the look of it.

Yeah that Kadri who just had the best year of his career sure is regressing. Again, the Flames don't need to do anything here. I remember last year when posters like you assured us that Lindholm wasn't even going to get a 1st round pick. Then he gets a high end prospect, 1st, 30 goal scorer, 4th and a low end prospect.

I also remember saying myself that a 2nd round pick would be an overpayment for Sean Monahan. Then Montreal got a 1st for him. If Lindholm gets 5 assets (2 high end ones) and Monahan gets a 1st then Kadri is worth a 1st all day long. Everyone needs a center, especially an all situations center.

 

[stl76]

my bad, I am unable to see their posts, it looked like you were making a terrible comparison without that context, this place would be much better if everyone followed my lead and blocked them so no one would reply to them.

Ahhh gotcha. Maybe we should all have that poster on block

 

[bleedgreen]

Yeah that Kadri who just had the best year of his career sure is regressing. Again, the Flames don't need to do anything here. I remember last year when posters like you assured us that Lindholm wasn't even going to get a 1st round pick. Then he gets a high end prospect, 1st, 30 goal scorer, 4th and a low end prospect.

I also remember saying myself that a 2nd round pick would be an overpayment for Sean Monahan. Then Montreal got a 1st for him. If Lindholm gets 5 assets (2 high end ones) and Monahan gets a 1st then Kadri is worth a 1st all day long. Everyone needs a center, especially an all situations center.

I thought Lindy was getting a first rounder the whole time, I’m a fan.

This isn’t a Canes fan proposal. You’re right, you don’t need to do anything and Kadri is best for you guys since you had faith in him with the contract.

 

[elitepete]

The trade would be straight up. Maybe like 500k retention by the Flames even.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

The trade would be straight up. Maybe like 500k retention by the Flames even.

Why the hell would Calgary do that?

 

[Volica]

Why the hell would Calgary do that?

I know everyone factors in the age.
But man. Getting a two-way centre that goes almost PPG at 7M in today's market is about as good of value as you can get. Really the only issue is there's another 5 years of contract to go.

That said, for a team that is in the win-now window, who cares about 5 years from now?

 

[madmike77]

The Flames are in no rush to trade Kadri. He’s good to have around for the younger players. And they’re not looking to compete any time soon.

The only way they trade him, in my opinion, is if he says he wants out. Even then, they’re more likely to take on another team’s cap dump (which the Flames will need to stay near the floor) and some modest assets in terms of picks/prospects, than acquire a player they can use now.

 

[Chan790]

That said, for a team that is in the win-now window, who cares about 5 years from now?

Tom Dundon and Eric Tulsky. Believers that strict cap management and not making "win-now" decisions make it possible to compete always.

 

[HighLifeMan]

Tom Dundon and Eric Tulsky. Believers that strict cap management and not making "win-now" decisions make it possible to compete always.

Without a doubt they believe that and it's a smart approach, but you could also very easily make the argument that type of mindset hurt them and kept them from getting across the goal line over the last five or so years especially in comparison to a Vegas or Florida for example. You now look at the Hurricanes roster today after this tough offseason and see a team that's not really a threat on paper to actively compete for a cup (obviously that could change). A more assertive approach could very well have landed Carolina another cup over the last few years. That's the tough part though - there is no right or wrong formula. It's an incredibly tough league to win in.

 

[chaz4hockey]

Without a doubt they believe that and it's a smart approach, but you could also very easily make the argument that type of mindset hurt them and kept them from getting across the goal line over the last five or so years especially in comparison to a Vegas or Florida for example. You now look at the Hurricanes roster today after this tough offseason and see a team that's not really a threat on paper to actively compete for a cup (obviously that could change). A more assertive approach could very well have landed Carolina another cup over the last few years. That's the tough part though - there is no right or wrong formula. It's an incredibly tough league to win in.

They will make the playoffs this year with a roster that still has quality. I’d also suggest that the Canes are positioning themselves for another run starting in ‘25. Nikishin, Morrow join the D and players such as Nadeau, Unger-Sorum and a bunch of other NA & EU/RU assets begin to progress to NHL levels/become of age.

They have a nicely ranked prospect list too.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

They will make the playoffs this year with a roster that still has quality. I’d also suggest that the Canes are positioning themselves for another run starting in ‘25. Nikishin, Morrow join the D and players such as Nadeau, Unger-Sorum and a bunch of other NA & EU/RU assets begin to progress to NHL levels/become of age.

They have a nicely ranked prospect list too.

Will they though? You are vastly underrating their losses this summer. Maybe their structure will be able to steal them some wins but they are a far worse team than they were last year. They are probably going to struggle with secondary scoring.

You are banking too much on your prospects too. Nikishin looks legitimate but after that you are probably looking at 2nd line caliber for Nadeau and 2nd pair for Morrow

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I think the idea behind this proposal is solid. Canes need a 2C now, KK isn't working out and for a couple of years, Kadri could be a solution.

I think given how the Canes front office works though, they aren't going to want Kadri, who will be 34 to start the season at his contract without retention, and Calgary won't want to retain.

With no retention, it makes the Canes cap situation worse in signing Necas, Jarvis and Drury.

Kadri + 1 to 1.5 mil retained per season for KK no adds.

CGY gets Kadri off the books, and if KK sucks they can buy him out or dump him when his contract is done. That team isn't contending for the foreseeable future. Keeping Kadri just keeps CGY locked into winning the 9th to 13th overall pick for the next 2-3 years by preventing them from being as bad as they need to be to win the lotto.

Carolina can worry about Kadri's cap in 3 seasons and hope he LTIRs. In the meantime he'd be a perfect 2C on a Brindamour team.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Kadri + 1 to 1.5 mil retained per season for KK no adds.

CGY gets Kadri off the books, and if KK sucks they can buy him out or dump him when his contract is done. That team isn't contending for the foreseeable future. Keeping Kadri just keeps CGY locked into winning the 9th to 13th overall pick for the next 2-3 years by preventing them from being as bad as they need to be to win the lotto.

Carolina can worry about Kadri's cap in 3 seasons and hope he LTIRs. In the meantime he'd be a perfect 2C on a Brindamour team.

I mean, I would do it. Calgary wouldn't though as that is a poor deal for them.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I mean, I would do it. Calgary wouldn't though as that is a poor deal for them.

Calgary isn't going to make the postseason anytime soon. Their prospects pool is thin and the kids they have are not world beaters. They need to go full tear down. KK as one of your top 2 centers helps that. Keeping Kadri keeps them from a bottom 5 pick which they desperately need. Maybe CAR adds their 1st or 2 2nds?

They should give serious consideration to trading Rasmus Andersson as well because he'd be worth a solid return.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Kadri + 1 to 1.5 mil retained per season for KK no adds.

CGY gets Kadri off the books, and if KK sucks they can buy him out or dump him when his contract is done. That team isn't contending for the foreseeable future. Keeping Kadri just keeps CGY locked into winning the 9th to 13th overall pick for the next 2-3 years by preventing them from being as bad as they need to be to win the lotto.

Carolina can worry about Kadri's cap in 3 seasons and hope he LTIRs. In the meantime he'd be a perfect 2C on a Brindamour team.

Lol that's brutal for the Flames. Calgary is barely above the cap floor and probably won't be near the ceiling for a while, we don't need him "off the books." The whole purpose of my proposal was to upgrade the Canes roster now while giving Kadri a chance to compete for a cup again, and for Calgary to take a shot on a reclamation project in Kotkaniemi. Kadri has more value than KK straight up, if you want 5 years of retention that is going to cost a lot

 

[chaz4hockey]

Will they though? You are vastly underrating their losses this summer. Maybe their structure will be able to steal them some wins but they are a far worse team than they were last year. They are probably going to struggle with secondary scoring.

You are banking too much on your prospects too. Nikishin looks legitimate but after that you are probably looking at 2nd line caliber for Nadeau and 2nd pair for Morrow

Perhaps.

You are probably forgetting that they did quite well without Guentzel prior to the trade deadline. Carrier is a better Noesen. TT production was meh after early year and was garbage in the playoffs two years in a row. I’d add that Canes 2nd pair will not be as good as Skeji-Pesce but the two signed this summer are still very respectable (and Devils will find that Pesce will decline precipitously).

Jarvis and Svetch in particular are still on career upswing which provides offensive growth and I still think it’s possible KK will be a positive surprise too.

FWIW: your characterization of Nadeau as a 2nd line guy (btw there are several others in the system that also have high potential) is perfect…that’s exactly what they need for filling out the second scoring line with Aho, Svetch, Jarvis Necas part of the mix.

Even Morrow as a second pair is also acceptable particularly since they will have Slavin, Nikishin, Ghost and Chatfield along with a probable one or two Eu d-men now in the system.

I expect that Canes will go on an extended Boston-like run through 2030 of excellent hockey.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Perhaps.

You are probably forgetting that they did quite well without Guentzel prior to the trade deadline. Carrier is a better Noesen. TT production was meh after early year and was garbage in the playoffs two years in a row. I’d add that Canes 2nd pair will not be as good as Skeji-Pesce but the two signed this summer are still very respectable (and Devils will find that Pesce will decline precipitously).

Jarvis and Svetch in particular are still on career upswing which provides offensive growth and I still think it’s possible KK will be a positive surprise too.

FWIW: your characterization of Nadeau as a 2nd line guy (btw there are several others in the system that also have high potential) is perfect…that’s exactly what they need for filling out the second scoring line with Aho, Svetch, Jarvis Necas part of the mix.

Even Morrow as a second pair is also acceptable particularly since they will have Slavin, Nikishin, Ghost and Chatfield along with a probable one or two Eu d-men now in the system.

I expect that Canes will go on an extended Boston-like run through 2030 of excellent hockey.

I don't even consider Guentzel a legitimate part of that team so no I'm not forgetting him. No idea how you consider Carrier better than Noesen. Turbo did a lot more than just his production, his defensive game will be a major loss, and his playoff production is irrelevant if you guys don't even make the playoffs at all.

You aren't factoring in adjustment period at all here. The Canes had a partial roster flip this summer and it will take time for the new players to adjust. Carolina has been one of the b st corsi teams in the league for a while because of the system they run and how their whole team moved as a cohesive unit.

As for your prospects, I was talking about their ceilings. Nadeau could end up being a 60+ point player but probably ends up more as a middle 6 40 points guy. Morrow is probably more in line with someone like Timothy Liljegren.

 

[belair]

Lol that's brutal for the Flames. Calgary is barely above the cap floor and probably won't be near the ceiling for a while, we don't need him "off the books." The whole purpose of my proposal was to upgrade the Canes roster now while giving Kadri a chance to compete for a cup again, and for Calgary to take a shot on a reclamation project in Kotkaniemi. Kadri has more value than KK straight up, if you want 5 years of retention that is going to cost a lot

I don't see why Kadri would have any value to Calgary today, knowing that he's likely going to be a regressing asset in the near future. What's not really taken into consideration is how volatile that perceived value is at this stage of a player's career. A poor stretch of games and the asset is essentially spent.

I don't think it should be player-for-player, because Kotkaniemi's deal should be viewed as offsetting salary. But both of these players come with value and risk attached to them.

 

[bleedgreen]

I don't even consider Guentzel a legitimate part of that team so no I'm not forgetting him. No idea how you consider Carrier better than Noesen. Turbo did a lot more than just his production, his defensive game will be a major loss, and his playoff production is irrelevant if you guys don't even make the playoffs at all.

You aren't factoring in adjustment period at all here. The Canes had a partial roster flip this summer and it will take time for the new players to adjust. Carolina has been one of the b st corsi teams in the league for a while because of the system they run and how their whole team moved as a cohesive unit.

As for your prospects, I was talking about their ceilings. Nadeau could end up being a 60+ point player but probably ends up more as a middle 6 40 points guy. Morrow is probably more in line with someone like Timothy Liljegren.

As a Canes fan I can say you’re a lot more worried than I am. We didn’t really have secondary scoring and we’ve been great. This team has as much if not more talent than the first couple of years under Rod and those teams made the playoffs. We only lost Skjei/Pesce/TT, not that those three aren’t big losses but people are acting like we lost half our team. Noesen is replaceable. We had five top four d, Orlov mitigates the loss of one of them and the two replacements are potential perfect fits for the system. Yes they’re a step back defensively but between more minutes to Orlov and these two we balance the loss of Skjei and the unit is still very mobile.

Are we stepping back? Probably but I think the last two years teams were missing something big so it’s not bad to reshuffle. This new group is likely to play RBA’s system better than the last. The 2018 team played it well because they lacked the offense and needed to. This team will be similar.

It would be nice to add a Kadri but we don’t have the cap space for this deal and it’s not one the management would do. They would never have signed Kadri to that contract, even if he’s worth it for the first half.

 

[madmike77]

I don't see why Kadri would have any value to Calgary today, knowing that he's likely going to be a regressing asset in the near future. What's not really taken into consideration is how volatile that perceived value is at this stage of a player's career. A poor stretch of games and the asset is essentially spent.

I don't think it should be player-for-player, because Kotkaniemi's deal should be viewed as offsetting salary. But both of these players come with value and risk attached to them.

The difference is Calgary doesn’t really care. They’re not competing for 5+ years so the salary is irrelevant to them. They’re barely at the floor as it is.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

I don't see why Kadri would have any value to Calgary today, knowing that he's likely going to be a regressing asset in the near future. What's not really taken into consideration is how volatile that perceived value is at this stage of a player's career. A poor stretch of games and the asset is essentially spent.

I don't think it should be player-for-player, because Kotkaniemi's deal should be viewed as offsetting salary. But both of these players come with value and risk attached to them.

The value he provides to Calgary is helping them reach the floor and mentoring the kids. He did a great job at that last season with Zary and Pospisil.

For the most part I agree with what you said, normally a player making 7M coming off a 75 points season has quite high value. For example look at the contract Stephenson got after a 51 point season. I think it's a pretty safe bet that even with Kadri's age he will still very likely outproduce Kotkaniemi over the remainder of their respective contracts.

 

[Bounces R Way]

KADRI IS 33 YEARS OLD HE IS PRACTICCALLY DEAD

this website smh

 

[Chet Manley]

Kadri would improve their cup chances but Canes' fans don't seem too interested in that. Good thing for Calgary that other teams will see value in a high-end 2c.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Kadri would improve their cup chances but Canes' fans don't seem too interested in that. Good thing for Calgary that other teams will see value in a high-end 2c.

if there ever was a post that missed everything said with a nicely wrapped logical fallacy throw in, here it is.