Proposal: CGY Kadri for CAR Kotkaniemi+

[Ledge And Dairy]

Sounds like a great plan for the Flames.

I wasn't talking to you. But Calgary already has cap "flexibility." The most in the league. Flames have no issue riding his contract out, I made this thread viewing it as a win-win for both sides because I figured Canes fanes were interested in competing for a cup but apparently not

 

[Blueline Bomber]

I wasn't talking to you. But Calgary already has cap "flexibility." The most in the league

And Carolina has routinely spent to the cap, so clearly they have had "things to spend it on." Which, again, is why cap flexibility is so important.

No one's saying Kadri wouldn't be a good fit for our open 2C slot. But his age and his contract likely make it a non-starter for management. Them's the breaks.

 

[le_sean]

No, we're talking about being on the hook for $7 million for the next 5 years instead of $870k over the next 10. One of those allows the team a lot more flexibility with their roster than the other.

Again, if the Canes have an issue with KK, they can buy him out super cheaply. There's no reason to trade him for a contract that is MUCH more difficult to work around.

Why is it difficult to work around? What evidence have you seen of Kadri’s supposed downfall? He’s still an excellent player and would provide good value for at least 3 years if that contract, maybe more. KK is nothing. He’s a detriment to the team.

 

[theVladiator]

How are the buyouts close enough?!?

Less than one million vs well over two million is the cost of a player that could make a difference. Or the difference between you giving a guy you’re trying to keep a contract or him going to market. Saying that doesn’t matter is pretty delusional. I do not understand Flames fans in this thread. If he’s such under appreciated asset for the love of god keep him. You trying to tell us we’re fools for not thinking it’s worth it is hf gold.

I get it. You’re stuck with Huberdeau. You’re going to need the cap space relatively soon so “let’s move Kadri while he’s worth something….he had a good season!!!”. So I get the desire to fight for his trade value, but everyone had a chance to sign him. No one would pay as much as you did. Now that we’re a few years into that contract it’s even less of a value, you’ve had some of the best years that contract will be worth. Even if you could convince us….which you can’t….Flames fans are not acknowledging the way the Canes do business at all despite Canes fans explaining it over and over. Canes do it different, for better or worse. They’re not going to see the value here, and in this case I’m not surprised or really complaining.

If the Flames had to get rid of him and were retaining and didn’t want quality back then the Canes would probably call. That’s not what this thread is, this thread is we’re giving back a roster player and supposedly adding. They would never do it so trying to diminish the difference between the cap buyouts despite the obvious difference or telling us about how good he was this year doesn’t change anything.

Um. Close enough from where I am sitting. I mean, if 1M cap hit space matters so much (I do not think it really does), you would lose initially, and come out ahead later. So, yeah, I do not get the fuss. In any case, my personal choice here would be to improve my team's chances of winning the Cup at little to no asset cost instead of sweating the difference between spreading similar cap hit penalty over 6 years or 10 years. Again, that's my personal opinion, not forcing it on you, simply expressing it here. By the way, I am a Wings fan, but I would not mind seeing the Canes win the Cup either.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

And Carolina has routinely spent to the cap, so clearly they have had "things to spend it on." Which, again, is why cap flexibility is so important.

No one's saying Kadri wouldn't be a good fit for our open 2C slot. But his age and his contract likely make it a non-starter for management. Them's the breaks.

Whether it's likely a move your management would make or not is irrelevant to my response to you. The vast majority of your posts in this thread have been you implying he's a cap dump or a problem. You have repeatedly said how you would prefer to buy out Kotki because of the cap flexibility. So if you are spending to the cap post buyout how are you spending that cap? Kadri addresses a need for your team that you probably can't replace internally any time soon by the looks of it, so if not Kadri who would you be using that available space on to address that issue instead?

 

[belair]

No, we're talking about being on the hook for $7 million for the next 5 years instead of $870k over the next 10. One of those allows the team a lot more flexibility with their roster than the other.

Again, if the Canes have an issue with KK, they can buy him out super cheaply. There's no reason to trade him for a contract that is MUCH more difficult to work around.

You're also 'on the hook' with Nazem Kadri the player for the remaining productive years of his playing career.

An effective second line center that pushes Carolina towards that Eastern Conference contender conversation is going to cost $6m minimum either way.

You can value the 'flexibility'. But that also suggests that you're fine taking the next few years rebuilding as a bubble team.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

You're also 'on the hook' with Nazem Kadri the player for the remaining productive years of his playing career.

An effective second line center that pushes Carolina towards that Wastern Conference contender conversation is going to cost $6m minimum either way.

You can value the 'flexibility'. But that also suggests that you're fine taking the next few years rebuilding as a bubble team.

Worth noting that the 6M minimum + the 870k buyout essentially = Kadri's current cap hit too

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

The Canes went deeper with Wallmark (19) and Kotkaniemi (23) as that other Top 9 center than they did with Trocheck (20-22).

Management doesn’t seem too concerned. It appears that they’re going to enter another season with Kotkaniemi and Drury occupying center slots. Prior acquisitions (Haula, Trocheck, Kuznetsov) were all modestly priced. It can be argued that the attempt at Pettersson was just as much about acquiring high end talent as it was about addressing the middle of the ice given the prior pursuits of wingers Tkachuk and Meier.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

You're also 'on the hook' with Nazem Kadri the player for the remaining productive years of his playing career.

An effective second line center that pushes Carolina towards that Wastern Conference contender conversation is going to cost $6m minimum either way.

You can value the 'flexibility'. But that also suggests that you're fine taking the next few years rebuilding as a bubble team.

I mean, I know it apparently surprised a lot of other fans, but Canes fans saw this off-season coming for a while now. We were aware of our expiring contracts and knew we likely wouldn’t keep most, if any, of our departing UFAs simply due to the money they’d likely ask for. So while “fine” isn’t the term I’d use, we expected to take a step back this year. We’re likely going to use this year to give some NHL experience to other prospects (if a recent Tulsky interview is any indication) and next year we’ll hopefully get Nikishin from the KHL, which we’re hoping will start the beginning of a new window for the team.

Since we’re in this transition (whatever it may be), having flexibility allows the team more options than an aging center on a difficult contract does, regardless of how productive he may or may not be.

 

[MinJaBen]

You're also 'on the hook' with Nazem Kadri the player for the remaining productive years of his playing career.

An effective second line center that pushes Carolina towards that Wastern Conference contender conversation is going to cost $6m minimum either way.

You can value the 'flexibility'. But that also suggests that you're fine taking the next few years rebuilding as a bubble team.

Kadri is not a good enough center to make the Canes a contender for the Western Conference.

 

[belair]

Kadri is not a good enough center to make the Canes a contender for the Western Conference.

Whoops.

 

[Bounces R Way]

Between posts like this and people making fun of us for being agist, this has become one of the more fascinating Canes threads in a long time.

No one hates Kadri here. I’m sure there’s been a negative post in here about him but Canes fans haven’t been against him in this thread. It’s purely the contract. Kadri would help the Canes next year, no one doubts that. That’s the whole point. People keep pointing how great he’s been in his early 30’s. Is that a surprise? Isn’t to me. Of course he’s going to be good the first half of the contract. He’s a pretty player still.

That post wasn't directed at Canes fans at all. I can assure you many posters on this forum hate Nazem Kadri, I used to be one of them.

I just think the belief the majority of this forum has about players in their 30s is ridiculous. Do some of them fall off a cliff? Yes they do. Do they all fall off a cliff? No they don't. Crosby just put up 94pts at 36. Pavelski was very effective the last several years being in his late 30s. Brent Burns is still putting up 40+ pts and he's 39. Don't think I need to tell you how important Jordan Staal is at 35 even if he's not putting up a ton of points. This notion that any year now a guy like Kadri who has been very durable over his career will suddenly lose all motor function and need to be put out to pasture is based on nothing other than older = bad and younger = good.

Look at Trocheck who left at 29, who is righty (which we’ve publicly said we need), was a guy RBA trusted in all situations and was very popular in the room. He’s a very similar player. He left for a 7 year deal for 5.6 which was only about a million dollar raise. We made little attempt to keep him because of the contract. Which goes in line with what we do over and over. We don’t sign these ufa contracts, especially for older players. The only exception was for Guentzel who clearly was the right player for one, he was a perfect linemate for Aho and just made sense to take a chance. We still wouldn’t go over our offer which was less than 8x8, period. We let our prize trade acquisition go because it was over our line.

We would never trade for Kadri. As fans we like the player but we know our management would never do this. We don’t have cap space for it. Some of us would take the chance maybe with the contract, most of us wouldn’t. I wouldn’t and I like Kadri.

KK isn’t an issue. We still have two years to buy him out cheap and he’s got a great opportunity in front of him with our reset. We don’t need help with Kk.

Maybe the results of the playoffs and a new GM will change some of these policies for Carolina, considering Trochek himself was a big part of the reason they got eliminated. He was over a point per game in the postseason and excellent defensively as well.

 

[bleedgreen]

That post wasn't directed at Canes fans at all. I can assure you many posters on this forum hate Nazem Kadri, I used to be one of them.

I just think the belief the majority of this forum has about players in their 30s is ridiculous. Do some of them fall off a cliff? Yes they do. Do they all fall off a cliff? No they don't. Crosby just put up 94pts at 36. Pavelski was very effective the last several years being in his late 30s. Brent Burns is still putting up 40+ pts and he's 39. Don't think I need to tell you how important Jordan Staal is at 35 even if he's not putting up a ton of points. This notion that any year now a guy like Kadri who has been very durable over his career will suddenly lose all motor function and need to be put out to pasture is based on nothing other than older = bad and younger = good.



Maybe the results of the playoffs and a new GM will change some of these policies for Carolina, considering Trochek himself was a big part of the reason they got eliminated. He was over a point per game in the postseason and excellent defensively as well.

The new gm made many of the decisions before the old gm left. They go by committee with Waddell being a bit of a figurehead and Tulsky/Yorke doing a lot of the leg work. Safe to assume Tulsky agreed with letting everyone go in the past, he was likely the impetus behind all of those decisions as he’s the analytical mind that was in charge of pro scouting. So nothing is changing anytime soon.

I don’t argue that Kadri will fall off a cliff. The Canes management is huge on value. Burns came heavily retained and basically for free. That was value. This is not that. It’s the opposite actually. We wouldn’t have signed the deal in the first place and the Flames have gotten two of the available best years on it. And we’re giving them a cheaper asset that’s way easier to get away from. It’s a Calgary favored deal since fans here clearly want to be out of that contract despite being indignant that Canes fans don’t want it and know their management won’t do it. I’m not saying Kadri should be retained, I’m just saying unless there’s a bargain in it for the Canes they wouldn’t look twice at it. The fact Flames fans think it makes us more competitive right now doesn’t really occur to them.

 

[Bounces R Way]

The new gm made many of the decisions before the old gm left. They go by committee with Waddell being a bit of a figurehead and Tulsky/Yorke doing a lot of the leg work. Safe to assume Tulsky agreed with letting everyone go in the past, he was likely the impetus behind all of those decisions as he’s the analytical mind that was in charge of pro scouting. So nothing is changing anytime soon.

I don’t argue that Kadri will fall off a cliff. The Canes management is huge on value. Burns came heavily retained and basically for free. That was value. This is not that. It’s the opposite actually. We wouldn’t have signed the deal in the first place and the Flames have gotten two of the available best years on it. And we’re giving them a cheaper asset that’s way easier to get away from. It’s a Calgary favored deal since fans here clearly want to be out of that contract despite being indignant that Canes fans don’t want it and know their management won’t do it. I’m not saying Kadri should be retained, I’m just saying unless there’s a bargain in it for the Canes they wouldn’t look twice at it. The fact Flanes fans think it makes us more competitive right now doesn’t really occur to them.

Guess we'll just have to disagree I think. I don't think it favors the Flames at all and would be an awful deal for them to make.

Kadri is much much better than Kotkaniemi, he's actually been worth or has been outperforming his contract currently. Kotkaniemi isn't much of anything, so getting him off the books for a top 6 C is actually better than free. I wouldn't do this deal and am in no rush to trade Naz myself, he was great mentoring Zary and Pospisil last year. There's no real reason to be desperate to offload Kadri and I'm confident if they were to explore the market for him they'd do better than most think.

 

[bleedgreen]

Guess we'll just have to disagree I think. I don't think it favors the Flames at all and would be an awful deal for them to make.

Kadri is much much better than Kotkaniemi, he's actually been worth or has been outperforming his contract currently. Kotkaniemi isn't much of anything, so getting him off the books for a top 6 C is actually better than free. I wouldn't do this deal and am in no rush to trade Naz myself, he was great mentoring Zary and Pospisil last year. There's no real reason to be desperate to offload Kadri and I'm confident if they were to explore the market for him they'd do better than most think.

I couldn’t agree more. I think the Flames should be keeping him. This doesn’t make sense for either team unless you’re proactively clearing as much cap space as you can, but if you are you’re probably not getting great value. That should be a given.

 

[NotOpie]

The challenge that seems to be ignored is that while the Canes have $13 million+ in cap space, most if not all of that will be eaten up by the Jarvis and Necas contracts (8 year extension for Jarvis likely and a $5.5 - $6.5 arbitration award for Necas). So even getting out from under Kotkaniemi's deal wouldn't be enough to cover Kadri's incoming deal.

 

[Discipline Daddy]

Hurricanes don't operate like other teams. Most teams see next year as 2x as important as 3, 4, 5 years from now. The Canes operate as if every future year is equally important, for the most part. The only splashy short-term deadline acquisition they have made under this management is Guentzel. Most other guys they prefer with term who are in their 20s and most productive years. The only players they have sought after with term in the late 30s includes:

Brent Burns (a physical freak of nature)
Jaccob Slavin (the best defenseman in franchise history)
Jordan Staal (plays a low event defensive game, who will probably age decently well)

Kadri would for sure break the mold; I just don't think the front office would touch that contract. If he didn't have that term, he'd be a much more sought after player for the Hurricanes.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Hurricanes don't operate like other teams. Most teams see next year as 2x as important as 3, 4, 5 years from now. The Canes operate as if every future year is equally important, for the most part. The only splashy short-term deadline acquisition they have made under this management is Guentzel. Most other guys they prefer with term who are in their 20s and most productive years. The only players they have sought after with term in the late 30s includes:

Brent Burns (a physical freak of nature)
Jaccob Slavin (the best defenseman in franchise history)
Jordan Staal (plays a low event defensive game, who will probably age decently well)

Kadri would for sure break the mold; I just don't think the front office would touch that contract. If he didn't have that term, he'd be a much more sought after player for the Hurricanes.

None of them cost as much as Kadri either. For Staal we are talking about well near half the AAV.

 

[BrokenFace]

A lot of the pro-Kadri comments seem to be "lol fine then don't trade for him I guess the Canes don't wanna win a cup". If your best justification for a team trading for a player is because that team hasn't won a cup recently, then maybe there isn't a lot of good things to say about that player. Kadri hasn't moved the needle in Calgary in the good half of this contract. Why would he move the needle for another team during the bad half of it?

 

[ManofSteel55]

I don’t know why people keep putting Huberdeau and Kadri in trade proposals, they are not going any where and that is fine.

The Flames need to stay above the cap floor, while they rebuild and the 2 contracts for these two help, also they can used as veteran presence.

Huberdeau and Kadri are finishing their contracts with the Flames and most likely Weegar.

Backlund, Coleman, Anderrson and other vets can be traded.

I wouldn't be shocked if Kadri was traded. He isn't overpaid, he's just possibly signed for too long. There's opportunities to make a deal that makes Calgary better in the long run with Kadri.

 

[Dan Kelly]

I wasn't talking to you. But Calgary already has cap "flexibility." The most in the league. Flames have no issue riding his contract out, I made this thread viewing it as a win-win for both sides because I figured Canes fanes were interested in competing for a cup but apparently not

Flames fans who pay for expensive season tickets every year can't have a complete rebuild put upon them after seeing how badly that can turn out about 300KM up the road in Edmonton ! It was long and painful and enormously frustrating!

 

[JPeeper]

A lot of the pro-Kadri comments seem to be "lol fine then don't trade for him I guess the Canes don't wanna win a cup". If your best justification for a team trading for a player is because that team hasn't won a cup recently, then maybe there isn't a lot of good things to say about that player. Kadri hasn't moved the needle in Calgary in the good half of this contract. Why would he move the needle for another team during the bad half of it?

Kadri is a massive reason the Flames didn't draft in the top 5 of this years draft, Kadri is also a HUGE reason why Zary and Pospisil both broke out and popped this year. To say Kadri didn't move the needle for the Flames is just another ignorant take in a thread of ignorant takes. Guy would be a top 2nd line center on a majority of the teams in this league.

 

[Errol Swaghammer]

None of them cost as much as Kadri either. For Staal we are talking about well near half the AAV.

Obviously whether the Canes want to put Kadri's salary on their books is a hugely relevant factor and may not make sense for them, if at least some of that wasn't retained.

But it also makes sense that he would make that much more than Staal. Staal had 30 points last year and Kadri had 75. Kadri was 18th among centers in points, meaning he performed as a low end 1st line center and a very high end second line center. And that was without any other players on that team hitting 60 points. Staal was 113th. Those are fundamentally different players, and Kadri has aged much better as a scorer. He's got as many points in his last three seasons as Staal does in his last six.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Obviously whether the Canes want to put Kadri's salary on their books is a hugely relevant factor and may not make sense for them, if at least some of that wasn't retained.

But it also makes sense that he would make that much more than Staal. Staal had 30 points last year and Kadri had 75. Kadri was 18th among centers in points, meaning he performed as a low end 1st line center and a very high end second line center. And that was without any other players on that team hitting 60 points. Staal was 113th. Those are fundamentally different players, and Kadri has aged much better as a scorer. He's got as many points in his last three seasons as Staal does in his last six.

I'm just saying that the 'older' players that Carolina has occasionally given out term out to, the money has been substantially less that what Kadri is making.

 

[NotOpie]

Obviously whether the Canes want to put Kadri's salary on their books is a hugely relevant factor and may not make sense for them, if at least some of that wasn't retained.

But it also makes sense that he would make that much more than Staal. Staal had 30 points last year and Kadri had 75. Kadri was 18th among centers in points, meaning he performed as a low end 1st line center and a very high end second line center. And that was without any other players on that team hitting 60 points. Staal was 113th. Those are fundamentally different players, and Kadri has aged much better as a scorer. He's got as many points in his last three seasons as Staal does in his last six.

This is probably a pretty poor comparison. Kadri was Calgary's 2nd line center. Staal is Carolina's 3rd line center. That line is matched up with the opponents best offensive line consistently. Staal's role on the Hurricanes is to demonstrate and execute defensive responsibility. Sure he can chip in 30 to maybe 40 points, but it's the points he keeps off the score board that are more important to the Canes. He's likely one of the top 2 or 3 defensive centers in the league.

This is like comparing apples to coconuts.