Line Combos: CBJ Roster Discussion/Line Combos/Injury Report (Voronkov returns)

[CBJx614]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1848404953338900607

 

[CBJWerenski8]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1848424958428324107

 

[S1N4TR4]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1848424958428324107

joy

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

plenty of others have picked up on it and it was especially clear after last year's debacle against washington that he is not well-liked in the room.

Allegedly. We've still seen no concrete reporting on this. Only conjecture and assumptions.

At least we knew Krzysztof Oliwa was hated and Lyle Odelien beat him up for being a douche. We just keep being told Elvis is a bad person.

So far Elvis just seems to be guilty of being a guy who has confidence in himself until he doesn't. Not everyone on the team has to be best friends but if he was truly hated everyone would have just pelted the sh*t out him in their end of season paintball outing last year. I've seen or heard no evidence of starting fights in the locker room or trying to steal someone's wife or anything heinous like that.

Jarmo isn't here anymore and I believe he was the purveyor of this public hate for him more than anyone. Jarmo held grudges like a true Bond villain.

 

[CannonFire1]

Allegedly. We've still seen no concrete reporting on this. Only conjecture and assumptions.

At least we knew Krzysztof Oliwa was hated and Lyle Odelien beat him up for being a douche. We just keep being told Elvis is a bad person.

So far Elvis just seems to be guilty of being a guy who has confidence in himself until he doesn't. Not everyone on the team has to be best friends but if he was truly hated everyone would have just pelted the sh*t out him in their end of season paintball outing last year. I've seen or heard no evidence of starting fights in the locker room or trying to steal someone's wife or anything heinous like that.

Jarmo isn't here anymore and I believe he was the purveyor of this public hate for him more than anyone. Jarmo held grudges like a true Bond villain.

Any resemblance to Dr. Evil is purely coincidental.

 

[VT]

I do not think Jiříček looks extra, but Harris is not good now. So, I am glad David should play.

If I understand right, Sillinger should play with Monahan and Marchenko because he plays a similar style like Jenner. Although I agree with @majormajor . Especially if Sillinger and Chinakhov have very good chemistry and Marchenko with Adam.

Fantilli - Monahan - Marchenko
Pyyhtiä - Sillinger - Chinakhov

 

[majormajor]

Allegedly. We've still seen no concrete reporting on this. Only conjecture and assumptions.

At least we knew Krzysztof Oliwa was hated and Lyle Odelien beat him up for being a douche. We just keep being told Elvis is a bad person.

So far Elvis just seems to be guilty of being a guy who has confidence in himself until he doesn't. Not everyone on the team has to be best friends but if he was truly hated everyone would have just pelted the sh*t out him in their end of season paintball outing last year. I've seen or heard no evidence of starting fights in the locker room or trying to steal someone's wife or anything heinous like that.

Jarmo isn't here anymore and I believe he was the purveyor of this public hate for him more than anyone. Jarmo held grudges like a true Bond villain.

He doesn't have to have stolen anyone's wife for there to have been a problem in the locker room with him last year. Sources on the team had told Porty that there was a problem. Porty doesn't have to tell you all the juicy details for you to believe that. There are good reasons to not share everything. I honestly don't get what you're objecting to here.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

Allegedly. We've still seen no concrete reporting on this. Only conjecture and assumptions.

sure, and if by 'concrete reporting' you mean getting elvis's teammates on the record as saying that they don't like him, you're never going to actually get that.

there are other ways to source reports, as portzline has done, and just because it falls short of the impossibly high standard of "getting a teammate to openly talk shit about him to a reporter" doesn't mean that the reporting isn't properly vetted or true.

If I understand right, Sillinger should play with Monahan and Marchenko because he plays a similar style like Jenner. Although I agree with @majormajor . Especially if Sillinger and Chinakhov have very good chemistry and Marchenko with Adam.

Fantilli - Monahan - Marchenko
Pyyhtiä - Sillinger - Chinakhov

the core issue is a lack of balance between the two scoring lines. the solution you outlined is still fundamentally unbalanced as it is asking a player on the second line to carry too much dead weight.

looking at the top three lines from the other night:
59-23-86 – three good offensive players
82-4-24 – zero good offensive players
27-19-17 – one good (but young) offensive player

the key learnings are that:

1. they only have four forwards who can drive offense
2. a line can't function with only one of those guys
3. if two of your top three lines are worthless, you're dead in the water

the solution is to go with two good offensive players and one solid passenger on each of the scoring lines, then let the spare parts live in the bottom six. i'd still much prefer to keep the top line together and go add a piece for the second line, but it doesn't seem like that's in the cards for whatever reason.

 

[majormajor]

sure, and if by 'concrete reporting' you mean getting elvis's teammates on the record as saying that they don't like him, you're never going to actually get that.

there are other ways to source reports, as portzline has done, and just because it falls short of the impossibly high standard of "getting a teammate to openly talk shit about him to a reporter" doesn't mean that the reporting isn't properly vetted or true.

I think Porty's sources might be players too. Porty knows a lot of things that he doesn't publish because he has to protect the players. So salacious details and player beefs are not to be shared.

the core issue is a lack of balance between the two scoring lines. the solution you outlined is still fundamentally unbalanced as it is asking a player on the second line to carry too much dead weight.

looking at the top three lines from the other night:
59-23-86 – three good offensive players
82-4-24 – zero good offensive players
27-19-17 – one good (but young) offensive player

the key learnings are that:

1. they only have four forwards who can drive offense
2. a line can't function with only one of those guys
3. if two of your top three lines are worthless, you're dead in the water

the solution is to go with two good offensive players and one solid passenger on each of the scoring lines, then let the spare parts live in the bottom six. i'd still much prefer to keep the top line together and go add a piece for the second line, but it doesn't seem like that's in the cards for whatever reason.

It's not just a matter of who he has played with, Chinakhov can drive offense better than Fantilli. Fantilli has the finishing ability but no line driving ability at this point. Chinakhov might have it.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

He doesn't have to have stolen anyone's wife for there to have been a problem in the locker room with him last year. Sources on the team had told Porty that there was a problem. Porty doesn't have to tell you all the juicy details for you to believe that. There are good reasons to not share everything. I honestly don't get what you're objecting to here.

My objection is that we know the team is in transition and the coach comes in with the clean slate mentality, Evason was quoted in training camp that he was working hard and being a model teammate and 1 week into the season the media is banging the change of scenery bell already after a subpar outing and a potential injury to work though.

"Sources" could be anyone saying anything. Of course he's not reporting it because he doesn't have additional sources to corroborate worthwhile details.

He might be a bad teammate in someone's mind for something as dumb as refusing to clean out the microwave in the lunchroom when he uses it or he stole Porty's breakfast bagel one morning. I'm not going to blindly follow a media report and believe it without some semblance of information to allow me to make an informed decision. It seems counterproductive to this team trying to engage a new mentality.

If "needs a rest" in quotation marks is meant to be a subtle dig at Elvis bailing on his teammates just come out and say it.

 

[majormajor]

My objection is that we know the team is in transition and the coach comes in with the clean slate mentality, Evason was quoted in training camp that he was working hard and being a model teammate and 1 week into the season the media is banging the change of scenery bell already after a subpar outing and a potential injury to work though.

One minor item in a Sunday column is not banging the bell. You're giving this topic a lot of life.

"Sources" could be anyone saying anything. Of course he's not reporting it because he doesn't have additional sources to corroborate worthwhile details.

You don't know that. In sports reporting the reporters often know all sorts of details that they can't publish because it would embarrass players or teams and they don't want to damage their relationships. Or they were told not to share it.

Are you familiar with "off the record" in journalism? Journalists often find sources willing to help them understand a topic but the sources don't want to be identified and they don't want specific things they say to be printed. So the reporters end up knowing a lot more than they can publish.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Assuming that we can know what specific things Portzline is not telling us because it’s likely he has been told things he doesn’t share with his audience seems as picayune as being a bit obstinate about not believing things that we haven’t been told explicitly.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

I'm just saying if there are "things" he's been told that he can't say, then he shouldn't play the "I've got a secret but I can't tell you" card with the way he alludes to the topic in his comments.

 

[majormajor]

Assuming that we can know what specific things Portzline is not telling us because it’s likely he has been told things he doesn’t share with his audience seems as picayune as being a bit obstinate about not believing things that we haven’t been told explicitly.

I don't claim to know specific things. Where did you get that idea?

I was saying that Porty probably knows more than he can share, which I'm sure you're familiar with from that line of work.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I don't claim to know specific things. Where did you get that idea?

I was saying that Porty probably knows more than he can share, which I'm sure you're familiar with from that line of work.

You are saying in this very thread that he knows about how Elvis is disliked in the room but isn’t saying it in so many words or from whom he learned the information. That’s pretty specific.

 

[majormajor]

You are saying in this very thread that he knows about how Elvis is disliked in the room but isn’t saying it in so many words or from whom he learned the information. That’s pretty specific.

I'm saying it's a significant possibility. IBM is saying "Of course he's not reporting it because he doesn't have additional sources to corroborate worthwhile details." (a specific claim), and I'm coming back with off the record reporting (a very standard practice) as a much more plausible reason why you haven't had Porty name names and describe specific beefs.

Also to be clear, I'm talking about what Porty was reporting last year, I am not talking about anything in the present tense, because unlike IBM I don't see Porty being particularly negative on Elvis right now. He was just reporting about player leaders "bringing Elvis back in".

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I'm saying it's a significant possibility.

Well, I was talking about being picayune, so this is fair, I guess.

I stand by my original post in this conversation, that assuming it's a significant possibility despite having no concrete evidence is as nitpicky as pointing out that there has been no concrete evidence of it.

And yeah, I was a journalist/reporter for like 30 years. It would be folly for anyone to assume what I knew or had been told that I didn't report. Although, I didn't get off on wink-wink commentary, either.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1848528441689158082

Not sure if reported anywhere but it appears Gudbranson had shoulder surgery yesterday

 

[majormajor]

And yeah, I was a journalist/reporter for like 30 years. It would be folly for anyone to assume what I knew or had been told that I didn't report.

Right. And if it wasn't already clear, I'm defending Porty because I assume he knows quite a lot that he can't put on record. That's true for every journalist/reporter I know.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Right. And if it wasn't already clear, I'm defending Porty because I assume he knows quite a lot that he can't put on record. That's true for every journalist/reporter I know.

In this thread, you are assuming a specific piece of unreported information and treating it as something between a near-certainty and a certainty. This is yet another occasion where you say that's not what you're doing and then turn around and do exactly that. You're obviously comfortable with the idea, so maybe stop saying you're not doing it and just own it.

There can be two equally unknowable reasons why Portzline does not report specifically on the problems players have with Merzlikins. One of them is that he knows of them and isn't saying. The other is that he does not have that information. All we have here is people deciding between those two equally unknowable things.

"I can't say for sure that there are issues among the players with Elvis because nothing specific has been reported."

or

"Even though nothing specific has been reported, I believe that there are issues among the players with Elvis and that Portzline knows them but just can't say."

 

[majormajor]

In this thread, you are assuming a specific piece of unreported information and treating it as something between a near-certainty and a certainty. This is yet another occasion where you say that's not what you're doing and then turn around and do exactly that. You're obviously comfortable with the idea, so maybe stop saying you're not doing it and just own it.

I am not making claims about any specific thing, I am thinking/assuming Porty knows specific things. That's different.

You're right that I've glossed over the distinction between thinking it very likely and assuming it to be the case that Porty knows more than he can share about the relations between Elvis and his teammates. The more I think about it, I'd put it at somewhere above 95% likelihood that Porty does have specifics he can't share. So for me it's somewhere between an assumption and a high likelihood. A reporter who heavily covers CBJ related controversy over the last five years and has countless off the record conversations with players and staff is going to know considerably more that they can't share compared to what they can share.

There can be two equally unknowable reasons why Portzline does not report specifically on the problems players have with Merzlikins. One of them is that he knows of them and isn't saying. The other is that he does not have that information. All we have here is people deciding between those two equally unknowable things.

"I can't say for sure that there are issues among the players with Elvis because nothing specific has been reported."

or

"Even though nothing specific has been reported, I believe that there are issues among the players with Elvis and that Portzline knows them but just can't say."

Porty has reported, not recently, that there were issues with Elvis and his teammates. He already reported it. Is that in dispute here?

IBM has said that Porty isn't sharing what he knows because he doesn't have the sources to corroborate it. That to me is making more of a bold claim on what Porty does or does not know. Off the record reporting is so ubiquitous in sports reporting that I don't feel like I've gone out on a limb in the slightest.

For me none of this is a reflection on Elvis, who we all ought to be giving another shot to. I just don't like people thinking they can trash Porty in order to defend a player, when Porty doesn't appear to have done anything wrong here. He has made little mention of Elvis lately. Nothing on Elvis' relationships with his teammates since the positive writing during camp about them bringing Elvis back in.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I am not making claims about any specific thing, I am thinking/assuming Porty knows specific things. That's different.

Given that we're talking specifically about Elvis having issues with teammates, and that was the topic when you weighed in with "Porty knows things he just can't say," it seems like that's a very specific things you're saying he knows. If I'm off base in that, and you're not saying that one of the things Porty knows but won't/can't tell us is the nature and depth of the issues between Elvis and his teammates, my apologies.

Porty has reported, not recently, that there were issues with Elvis and his teammates. He already reported it. Is that in dispute here?

IBM has said that Porty isn't sharing what he knows because he doesn't have the sources to corroborate it. That to me is making more of a bold claim on what Porty does or does not know. Off the record reporting is so ubiquitous in sports reporting that I don't feel like I've gone out on a limb in the slightest.

As I said, you are comfortable assuming something not in evidence. IBM is not.

 

[Jovavic]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1848528441689158082

Not sure if reported anywhere but it appears Gudbranson had shoulder surgery yesterday

Maybe it's just me but it seems like we get more shoulder injuries then the average team

 

[CBJWerenski8]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1848764756665995691

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1848764756665995691

Regarding not announcing a timeline... I understand the value of information and transparency, but I don't think he's the kind of player nor is this the kind of season where we'll all be hoping we can get him back so we can do something from a stretch run perspective or whatever. I honestly don't really even care how long he's out. I understand he's a leader and a minutes-eater, but I just can't bring myself to go beyond "long-term". That's good enough for me. I wish him the best in his recovery and will be glad when he can take the ice again for the team.