Prospect Info: CBJ Prospect Thread XI

[CBJWerenski8]

 

[stevo61]

Getting greedy, he doesnt really have a basis for either getting one. I doubt the CHL is in a hurry to give up their control on high quality players

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Getting greedy, he doesnt really have a basis for either getting one. I doubt the CHL is in a hurry to give up their control on high quality players

I don't think Mateychuk has a chance. And honestly, I think I'd prefer him in the WHL anyway. Cleveland already has a lot of kids to worry about. Let him dominate, play in the World Juniors, and maybe get in some AHL games at the end of the season.

Dumais, while not having a great chance, has a better chance. He has more GP than Wright. And I know Wright had a cup of coffee at the NHL level for a while and was getting scratched/conditioning stinted for a while, but I think it has a shot.

 

[stevo61]

I don't think Mateychuk has a chance. And honestly, I think I'd prefer him in the WHL anyway. Cleveland already has a lot of kids to worry about. Let him dominate, play in the World Juniors, and maybe get in some AHL games at the end of the season.

Dumais, while not having a great chance, has a better chance. He has more GP than Wright. And I know Wright had a cup of coffee at the NHL level for a while and was getting scratched/conditioning stinted for a while, but I think it has a shot.

Wright missed a year due to covid, all they care about is the 4 years. On paper Mateychuk has as much of a chance as Dumais which is 0%. Id actually prefer Mateychuk in Cleveland though, he's ready to be challenged in a different way

 

[koteka]

Jackets fans: “Don’t rush the prospects!”

Also Jackets fans: ”I hope we can circumvent the rules so we can rush our prospects.”

 

[CBJx614]

Jackets fans: “Don’t rush the prospects!”

Also Jackets fans: ”I hope we can circumvent the rules so we can rush our prospects.”

The only player in the entire CHL who outscored Dumais is considered a generational prospect because of his ability to score points. Dumais has absolutely 0 left to prove in jr's. We aren't asking that he stays in the NHL, but is able to be developed in the AHL. Mateychuk is questionable but he'd more than likely benefit from a season or two in the AHL before getting a crack at the NHL


It's not rushing them it's keeping them in the proper level of competition to keep developing them.

 

[DarkandStormy]

I mean, he effectively has to beat out Peeke, Blankenburg, Berni (if he signs), Christiansen, and Svozil, not to mention how they might want to handle Jiricek.

 

[koteka]

The only player in the entire CHL who outscored Dumais is considered a generational prospect because of his ability to score points. Dumais has absolutely 0 left to prove in jr's. We aren't asking that he stays in the NHL, but is able to be developed in the AHL. Mateychuk is questionable but he'd more than likely benefit from a season or two in the AHL before getting a crack at the NHL


It's not rushing them it's keeping them in the proper level of competition to keep developing them.

Personally I don’t know why guys go the CHL route instead of the college route. But I do know the CHL rules are the CHL rules. Heck, I‘d love to send the guys to Sweden or Switzerland, but I know that isn’t going to happen.

There is more to hockey than scoring, and Dumais can work on other aspects of his game. Both Dumais and Mateychuk are on the smaller side. I see no problem letting them focus on getting stronger and rounding out their games. They seem to be getting really good development where they are.

 

[CBJx614]

Personally I don’t know why guys go the CHL route instead of the college route. But I do know the CHL rules are the CHL rules. Heck, I‘d love to send the guys to Sweden or Switzerland, but I know that isn’t going to happen.

There is more to hockey than scoring, and Dumais can work on other aspects of his game. Both Dumais and Mateychuk are on the smaller side. I see no problem letting them focus on getting stronger and rounding out their games. They seem to be getting really good development where they are.

That's the thing though, all reports show guys like Dumais have nothing to prove in the CHL. There is no rounding out your game when you're putting up 3-4 points per game. The competition becomes to easy and it becomes boring. You start trying stuff that just doesn't work on the next level and start picking up bad habits. You don't get better playing down to lesser competition. I don't think it applies as much to Mateychuk but Dumais has absolutely nothing left to gain from playing in the CHL.

 

[koteka]

That's the thing though, all reports show guys like Dumais have nothing to prove in the CHL.

Defensive positioning, back checking, passing, leadership — there is more to hockey than putting pucks in nets.

A guy like Calvert made a career out of more than offense.

 

[Monk]

Defensive positioning, back checking, passing, leadership — there is more to hockey than putting pucks in nets.

Is that what his juniors coaches prioritize or are they prioritizing winning games? I understand those aren't mutually exclusive but you get the point

 

[CBJx614]

Defensive positioning, back checking, passing, leadership — there is more to hockey than putting pucks in nets.

A guy like Calvert made a career out of more than offense.

Dumais is more Johnny Gaudreau then he is Matt Calvert.

Once again, playing as a 19 yr old against 17 and 18 yr olds isn't going to teach him anything. Defensive positioning against kids doesn't help him prepare for doing it against grown men. It helps him develop bad habits once he gets to the pros. It's hard to learn anything when you're the best player on the ice every night.

 

[koteka]

Dumais is more Johnny Gaudreau then he is Matt Calvert.

Once again, playing as a 19 yr old against 17 and 18 yr olds isn't going to teach him anything. Defensive positioning against kids doesn't help him prepare for doing it against grown men. It helps him develop bad habits once he gets to the pros

Is that what his juniors coaches prioritize or are they prioritizing winning games? I understand those aren't mutually exclusive but you get the point

The CHL rules are the CHL rules. Like I said, I would love him to go to Europe, but that isn’t happening. He can either try to work on weaknesses in his game or he can focus on scoring records and maybe develop bad habits. But he is going back to the CHL. So feel free to whine away on this topic, but the CHL isn’t going to screw over the Halifax Mooseheads to help the CBJ.

 

[stevo61]

Personally I don’t know why guys go the CHL route instead of the college route. But I do know the CHL rules are the CHL rules. Heck, I‘d love to send the guys to Sweden or Switzerland, but I know that isn’t going to happen.

There is more to hockey than scoring, and Dumais can work on other aspects of his game. Both Dumais and Mateychuk are on the smaller side. I see no problem letting them focus on getting stronger and rounding out their games. They seem to be getting really good development where they are.

I dont care enough to debate the rest but I will say 5'11" 200lbs is not on the smaller side

 

[CBJx614]

Nvm.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

Defensive positioning, back checking, passing, leadership — there is more to hockey than putting pucks in nets.

this scott wheeler piece on dumais is fascinating in that regard. a few excerpts:

coach quote:

Head coach Sylvain Favreau was quick to point out that despite his size, Dumais led the Mooseheads in takeaways as a 17-year-old.

gm quote:

“He’s a smaller guy and he looks like a bit of a choppy skater but his skating is great, he’ll win every race to the puck, and he’s just a player,” [GM Cam] Russell said.

quote from one of the strength coaches he works with:

He’d also tell them that when he puts his athletes (a group that includes unequivocally fast players like the Red Wings’ Joe Veleno and the Blue Jackets’ James Malatesta) through races or timed sprints on the track, Dumais is “always at the top.” When the Blue Jackets sent Griffin his results in their own jumping and power testing, they showed that he was “above average on everything on an NHL level, too.”

quote from another strength coach:

"For his size and his frame, for the way he’s moving, for his speed, for his jumps, it has hit another level. You wouldn’t believe some of the weights he’s putting up for his size based on ‘He looks like a kid.’”

faster than malatesta, above NHL average in explosiveness/power testing, leads the team in takeaways… i know it's easy to look at the statline and see 140 points and think that his game in the QMJHL has been all offense, but he's been a really good well-rounded player on top of that.

calvert put up 67 points in his D+1 year, dumais had more than twice that (140). i loved watching matty calvert – he was a great bottom six wing – but i think we can fairly shoot higher than that with dumais.

 

[koteka]

faster than malatesta, above NHL average in explosiveness/power testing, leads the team in takeaways… i know it's easy to look at the statline and see 140 points and think that his game in the QMJHL has been all offense, but he's been a really good well-rounded player on top of that.

Given that he will spend at least a large portion of the season in Halifax because those are the rules, what would you want him to focus on?

 

[Monk]

The CHL rules are the CHL rules. Like I said, I would love him to go to Europe, but that isn’t happening. He can either try to work on weaknesses in his game or he can focus on scoring records and maybe develop bad habits. But he is going back to the CHL. So feel free to whine away on this topic, but the CHL isn’t going to screw over the Halifax Mooseheads to help the CBJ.

Who's whining? There's discussion about a report of something Jarmo is going to ask for and whether it has merit or not. Pretty sure it's been acknowledged that there's effectively 0% chance it actually happens. IMO it's a broader conversation anyway, beyond just the Dumais case. These rules are annoying as an NHL team fan, regardless of the specific details and/or whether those rules make sense or not.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

Given that he will spend at least a large portion of the season in Halifax because those are the rules, what would you want him to focus on?

honestly, to me, he checks pretty much every box that he can.

• elite hockey IQ + vision
• plus hands + shooting
• high compete level
• speed + quickness + agility (his skating can look a bit awkward, but it's effective)

there's a difference between changing things in his game (not needed imo) and developing his current game to be effective against harder competition. that can only be done by actually playing against harder competition.

i don't think that there's much to be learned from him putting up another 140+ point season in the QMJHL (or even higher than that) – simply put, he is too good for that league. he also dominated in traverse – admittedly a very small sample size – against a mix of junior, AHL and post-collegiate players.

the 'rules' here are getting in the way of what is best for his development – in this case, that's playing on a scoring line and PP1 in the AHL.

 

[CBJx614]

honestly, to me, he checks pretty much every box that he can.

• elite hockey IQ + vision
• plus hands + shooting
• high compete level
• speed + quickness + agility (his skating can look a bit awkward, but it's effective)

there's a difference between changing things in his game (not needed imo) and developing his current game to be effective against harder competition. that can only be done by actually playing against harder competition.

i don't think that there's much to be learned from him putting up another 140+ point season in the QMJHL (or even higher than that) – simply put, he is too good for that league. he also dominated in traverse – admittedly a very small sample size – against a mix of junior, AHL and post-collegiate players.

the 'rules' here are getting in the way of what is best for his development – in this case, that's playing on a scoring line and PP1 in the AHL.

I really do think it's in the CHLs best interest to create some sort of exception rule for NHL teams, provide some sort of out clause if certain conditions are met. With how much training has improved over the last decade or two were gonna start seeing cases like this more frequently.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised for Jarmo to say f*** it and keep Dumais on the NHL roster. Especially if he looks as good as he did last season in camp and is producing through preseason and his cup of tea in the NHL reg season. Sometimes when a kid is ready you gotta throw him to the wolves and see how he responds.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

I honestly wouldn't be surprised for Jarmo to say f*** it and keep Dumais on the NHL roster. Especially if he looks as good as he did last season in camp and is producing through preseason and his cup of tea in the NHL reg season. Sometimes when a kid is ready you gotta throw him to the wolves and see how he responds.

at this point, dumais would probably benefit more from practicing with NHL guys than he does from playing in the QMJHL.

i think technically they could keep him on the roster, and, if he's healthy scratched for 10+ games, loan him to the AHL for conditioning. get him used to NHL preparation, then send him down for conditioning, call him back up, play him in a couple games, then repeat the cycle until after WJC, then give him a shot to crack the lineup or send him back to halifax.

maybe that's not possible, but i think that's what the kraken did last year with wright.

 

[koteka]

I really do think it's in the CHLs best interest to create some sort of exception rule for NHL teams, provide some sort of out clause if certain conditions are met. With how much training has improved over the last decade or two were gonna start seeing cases like this more frequently.

Why? How will letting the best players leave get more money, recognition, or anything for CHL teams? It might be in 3-5 players best interest every year, but I can’t see how it makes the CHL better to lose stars and gate revenue. Maybe you could devise a buyout structure where and NHL team can buy out a player for $2 million or something, and that could help the CHL. But without compensation you are just hurting the CHL teams.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

edit: posted in the wrong thread; moving my comment to the right one

 

[CBJx614]

Why? How will letting the best players leave get more money, recognition, or anything for CHL teams? It might be in 3-5 players best interest every year, but I can’t see how it makes the CHL better to lose stars and gate revenue. Maybe you could devise a buyout structure where and NHL team can buy out a player for $2 million or something, and that could help the CHL. But without compensation you are just hurting the CHL teams.

Because them working out a deal is better long term than causing a rift between the NHL teams, especially if it starts becoming more and more common. And I like that idea of a buyout, maybe not in the millions but some kind of compensation to the team that drafted them would go a long way. The kids and their development need to be taken into consideration by both sides.

 

[Aaaarrgghh]

Ivanov has apparently continued to impress in his first few games. I can't claim to know a great deal about him, but everything I read about him makes me excited.