Prospect Info: CBJ Prospect Thread XI

cbjthrowaway

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The guy I am responding to and literally quoted said “I personally think we look to extend Provorov”. Provorov currently has a cap hit of $6.8 million and will be making $8.6 million in 24-25. What do you think extending him will cost?
the only way the last year salary would matter here is if he was an RFA who was looking to sign a QO, but he's going to hit UFA. his current contract has no bearing on what GMs will offer – he'll get something in line with historical comps.

he'll be 28 when he signs his next contract. maybe 27 if he extends a year before. if he's looking for term, you're looking at 6-8 years. here's a list of every LHD contract that fits those parameters (6+ years, kicking in for age-28 season or later).

the only two guys who are even over $7m are roman josi and morgan rielly, both of whom were the unquestioned #1 defensemen on playoff teams. provorov isn't that – he's a solid second pair guy.

the next tier of guys (mcdonagh, krug, lindholm) are better comps for provorov – all signed for $6.5m, give or take. if you expand the list to also include RHD, you get more guys in that $6.5m neighborhood (parayko, faulk, weegar, ellis, severson).barring a sudden norris-level breakout from provorov, he's likely getting something in the $5.5m to $6.5m aav range on his next deal.

the funny thing about severson being on that list is that the devils were in a similar position to the jackets two years ago – severson was made expendable because of nemec and hughes. the same thing could happen to provorov if mateychuk/svozil continue to develop. so the jackets could do the severson sign-and-trade thing with provorov at that point.
 
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koteka

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he'll get something in line with historical comps.

So, how do you convince him to sign an extension with the Jackets and not hit free agency? More term/money than he thinks he could get in free agency. We are not talking what is a fair contract for Provorov. In this scenario we are guessing at what can the Jackets put on the table to keep him from hitting free agency. Also, the scenario presented was that he plays really well for the Jackets. Plus factor in salary cap growth that people (not necessarily me) are projecting.
 

cbjthrowaway

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So, how do you convince him to sign an extension with the Jackets and not hit free agency?
first, provorov has to convince the jackets that he's worth an extension (especially with the amount of LHD in the pipeline)
More term/money than he thinks he could get in free agency. We are not talking what is a fair contract for Provorov.
there's a lot more that goes into extending a player than throwing money at them.

provorov's agent will have a good grasp of his market value. if both sides want him to stick around + the jackets offer something reasonably aligned to that market value, it'll get done.
In this scenario we are guessing at what can the Jackets put on the table to keep him from hitting free agency. Also, the scenario presented was that he plays really well for the Jackets. Plus factor in salary cap growth that people (not necessarily me) are projecting.
they don't need to come in above market value to retain a player who wants to stay, they just need to meet the market value.

in this scenario, where he plays well enough to warrant an extension + the jackets have the cap for it, then the end result is… keeping a really good player in the fold? i fail to see the problem here.

more likely scenario is that he greatly helps their blueline for two years, the jackets get to be more patient with svozil + mateychuk, then have an in-house replacement (or two) when provorov hits free agency.

people will frame that as "losing him for nothing" but they will have still gotten surplus value out of the trade: two prime years of a top-four defenseman on a retained contract + more runway for two top prospects is still really valuable. worth more than a mid-20s pick and two seconds imo.

edit: also, just to keep this on-topic for the thread title – moves that provide additional runway for your prospects are valuable in their own way; more runway = higher likelihood that the prospect succeeds. they have so many prospects that, if you can increase the likelihood that the top guys pan out at the cost of a few non-premium picks, it's a worthwhile trade-off.
 
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koteka

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there's a lot more that goes into extending a player than throwing money at them.

Look, it wasn’t my scenario. I responded to a guy who does want to extend him, and I pointed out that the cost of extending him means that we are committing a lot of cap and I’d rather use that cap to lock up guys like Jiricek and Fantilli. I went with max term and roughly his pay at the end of the contract as an example of the cost of extending a guy that I 100% expect will want to go the free agent route. And you jumped in.

It looks like there are 3 camps:

People who like the trade but see it as stop gap. You and several others are here.

People who like the trade and want to extend Provorov. CBJx614 is here. I doubt he is alone, but I havent seen others bring up an extension yet.

People who don’t like the trade. I am here. I think Cowumbus is as well.

You and I arguing about the cost of an extension is pretty stupid since neither of us want to do it.
 

CBJx614

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Look, it wasn’t my scenario. I responded to a guy who does want to extend him, and I pointed out that the cost of extending him means that we are committing a lot of cap and I’d rather use that cap to lock up guys like Jiricek and Fantilli. I went with max term and roughly his pay at the end of the contract as an example of the cost of extending a guy that I 100% expect will want to go the free agent route. And you jumped in.

It looks like there are 3 camps:

People who like the trade but see it as stop gap. You and several others are here.

People who like the trade and want to extend Provorov. CBJx614 is here. I doubt he is alone, but I havent seen others bring up an extension yet.

People who don’t like the trade. I am here. I think Cowumbus is as well.

You and I arguing about the cost of an extension is pretty stupid since neither of us want to do it.
I'm not saying we should offer him an extension no matter what, I'm saying it's foolish to say right now that we shouldn't extend or that the trade was bad. There's simply too many variables to account for to say right now if we should or not. But I do see a few scenarios where it makes too much sense to keep him around.
 

Xoggz22

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(And a 2025 2nd) For two seasons that (probably) don’t matter?


It’s really better framed as, what are the odds that pick 23OA and/or the 2025 2nd is worth 2 years of Provorov.

Even if one or both of the picks are worse players overall, is 8 years of control more valuable than the next two years of Provorov? (Rhetorical) Would you rather 8 years of Peeke/Texier+Foudy/Cuelemans, or 2 years from Ivan?

Eh, I’m not sure about that. We really just needed healthy players, and we all kind of assumed we would get some type of D in UFA.
I get your points here but there is value in allowing those you expect to be good (or even high end) time to develop to make your organization better. Being competitive is a good thing. Winning is a good teacher. Maybe you don't mean it this way but I couldn't care less about 8 years control if the player doesn't amount to anything. A know quantity for a minimum of 2 years was a good thing to do. Adding yet another "Ceulemans, Foudy, Chinny" would be just that... a long term question mark. You said above Foudy does nothing for you and is replaceable. While maybe he wasn't a great pick and took longer, he's in that range we would have picked, and while I'm as much an optimist when it comes with the shiny new object, the reality is 22OA was another crap shoot.

I'd rather the 2 years of Provorov because he's young enough to be extended and buys enough time to allow Svozil and Mateychuk to let us know what they may truly become. He also should offer improvement on the back end to make this team more competitive and help advance the youngsters without killing them. Just my opinion. The 2nd means next to nothing to me as they hit rate is such a stretch I don't see them having killer value.

And why are we arguing about Provorov in the prospect thread?
My bad...
 

Cowumbus

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I get your points here but there is value in allowing those you expect to be good (or even high end) time to develop to make your organization better.
I’m not arguing against this? Like at all…
Being competitive is a good thing. Winning is a good teacher.
The team still is going to be brutally average.
I'd rather the 2 years of Provorov because he's young enough to be extended and buys enough time to allow Svozil and Mateychuk to let us know what they may truly become.
They have guys to do the exact same thing though. Bean, Blankenburg, Peeke. Berni could have been a bottom pair guy for all I care.
He also should offer improvement on the back end to make this team more competitive and help advance the youngsters without killing them. Just my opinion. The 2nd means next to nothing to me as they hit rate is such a stretch I don't see them having killer value.
They would have been “more competitive” simply bringing back a healthy defense.

We are again “inflating” win totals with guys who are not part of the core. When the cap goes up 8-10 million do people really think Provorov is going to sign here as a UFA to play second pair minutes for second pair pay?
 

Viqsi

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The team still is going to be brutally average.
That's fine, though. That's a healthy setting for folks to develop in and thus increases the odds of the kids turning out as good as or better than we hope.

At the risk of leaning into loaded language... it's Safe Space insurnace. Given the choice between increasing the chances for all our existing kids or pulling in another kid and Hoping It Works Out, I'm inclined to pick the former. Especially considering that the only other argument for not making the trade is, basically, more tanking (and I'm sure everyone here by now knows perfectly well exactly how I feel about that...).
 
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Double-Shift Lasse

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I couldN’T care less.

A middling year doesn’t matter much.
Every season, even if you do not expect to compete for a championship, you need to be giving the players in your organization the tools and support needed to get better. Provorov and Severson are both, after a fashion, inasmuchas the stability they offer in short term will help develop young players they play with by allowing the team to play them situationally in ways to promote their success. It may also allow even younger players to develop in other places that, 3-4 years down the road, will make them better and thus, the team better.

There is a conversation to be had about preferring the draft pick vs the player now, but you’re having that with other posters. I’m in agreement with the position of preferring the current path.

But my comment has more to do with your contention that the next couple years are meaningless. I’m going to assume by that stance that you’re a young person. There are many things about which I trust a younger person than someone older, but the value of the passing of time is not one of them.
 
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MoeBartoli

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Provorov is here for two seasons. At that point I’m confident our D corp will include Z, Severson, Jiricek and two of the following: Mateychuk, Svozil, Ceulemans, Boqvist, Peeke. If Provorov proves to be a guy who is needed, maybe he’ll get extended. Otherwise, we’re covered and he may get traded at the TDL in his last year and recoup the asset. But his presence allows our D prospects to appropriately develop and not rushed while still icing a competent D in the meantime.
 

Farmboy Patty

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I’m fully prepared to be disappointed midway through next season, but I have a really good feeling of the Jackets D game to to take their division by surprise under Babs. I’m the eternal optimist, so keep your thumbs up 👍
 

DarkandStormy

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Pronman's annual best players under 23 is out. It does include established NHL players like Jack Hughes and Tim Stutzle, so it does differ from our list a bit.

Tier 1 (bubble generational player) - Bedard
Tier 2 (elite NHL player) - Fantilli, along with Michkov, Stutzle, and Hughes
Tier 5 (he calls it Bubble NHL All-Star and top of the lineup player) - Jiricek; Logan Cooley and Wyatt Johnston are a couple other guys in this tier
Tier 6 (top of the lineup player) - Kent Johnson, along with Byfield, Drysdale, and others
Tier 8 (middle of the lineup player) - Sillinger, Brindley, Svozil, Mateychuk, Chinakhov

He goes 168 players deep. Voronkov and Dumais not listed.
 

DarkandStormy

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Pronman ranks CBJ pipeline (defined as players younger than 23 years old) as 5th, behind Anaheim, Chicago, Buffalo, and New Jersey. In 2022, he ranked us 12th, in 2021 13th, and in 2020 19th.

His list, compared to ours, goes:
1) Fantilli (no change)
2) Jiricek (no change)
3) Johnson (N/A, so will ignore for ranking purposes)
4) Sillinger (also going to ignore)
5) Brindley (+3 compared to our list)
6) Svozil (+1)
7) Chinakhov (N/A)
8) Mateychuk (-2)
9) Knazko (+15 !!!!)
10) Dumais (no change)

Voronkov has aged out due to his birthday being just days before the September 15 cutoff, thought he's erroneously not listed as aging out.

He does go 14 players deep and then lists 7 more who he sees as having a chance to play in the NHL. I didn't want to just copy/paste the whole thing, though.
 

stevo61

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Pronman ranks CBJ pipeline (defined as players younger than 23 years old) as 5th, behind Anaheim, Chicago, Buffalo, and New Jersey. In 2022, he ranked us 12th, in 2021 13th, and in 2020 19th.

His list, compared to ours, goes:
1) Fantilli (no change)
2) Jiricek (no change)
3) Johnson (N/A, so will ignore for ranking purposes)
4) Sillinger (also going to ignore)
5) Brindley (+3 compared to our list)
6) Svozil (+1)
7) Chinakhov (N/A)
8) Mateychuk (-2)
9) Knazko (+15 !!!!)
10) Dumais (no change)

Voronkov has aged out due to his birthday being just days before the September 15 cutoff, thought he's erroneously not listed as aging out.

He does go 14 players deep and then lists 7 more who he sees as having a chance to play in the NHL. I didn't want to just copy/paste the whole thing, though.
I wonder what he see's or think he see's with Knazko. Must like that he has represented his country a few times and actually looks pretty good doing it for the most part.
 

Doggy

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Pronman ranks CBJ pipeline (defined as players younger than 23 years old) as 5th, behind Anaheim, Chicago, Buffalo, and New Jersey. In 2022, he ranked us 12th, in 2021 13th, and in 2020 19th.

His list, compared to ours, goes:
1) Fantilli (no change)
2) Jiricek (no change)
3) Johnson (N/A, so will ignore for ranking purposes)
4) Sillinger (also going to ignore)
5) Brindley (+3 compared to our list)
6) Svozil (+1)
7) Chinakhov (N/A)
8) Mateychuk (-2)
9) Knazko (+15 !!!!)
10) Dumais (no change)

Voronkov has aged out due to his birthday being just days before the September 15 cutoff, thought he's erroneously not listed as aging out.

He does go 14 players deep and then lists 7 more who he sees as having a chance to play in the NHL. I didn't want to just copy/paste the whole thing, though.
In his TA podcast reviewing the CBJ he specifically mentioned that he likes Voronkov but that he had aged out so he could not include him.
 

DarkandStormy

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I wonder what he see's or think he see's with Knazko. Must like that he has represented his country a few times and actually looks pretty good doing it for the most part.

Well, he just turned 21 and put up 21 points in 50 AHL games in his first season in NA. He lists everything (skating, puck skills, hockey sense, and compete) as "NHL average." He doesn't do anything spectacularly, but isn't overly deficient in any area either. He's shown he can carry the puck well and move it enough to be a decent offensive threat. Really not sure why the board didn't have him in the top 20 but 🤷‍♂️

In his TA podcast reviewing the CBJ he specifically mentioned that he likes Voronkov but that he had aged out so he could not include him.

In the article he only lists Foudy and Marchenko as aging out.
 

stevo61

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Well, he just turned 21 and put up 21 points in 50 AHL games in his first season in NA. He lists everything (skating, puck skills, hockey sense, and compete) as "NHL average." He doesn't do anything spectacularly, but isn't overly deficient in any area either. He's shown he can carry the puck well and move it enough to be a decent offensive threat. Really not sure why the board didn't have him in the top 20 but 🤷‍♂️



In the article he only lists Foudy and Marchenko as aging out.
It was his 2nd season in NA. If it makes you feel any better Jake Christiansen led Cleveland in points at age 21 and was just voted 19th
 

DarkandStormy

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It was his 2nd season in NA. If it makes you feel any better Jake Christiansen led Cleveland in points at age 21 and was just voted 19th

Not sure 27 WHL qualifies as a season, but sure.

I mean, I think his ceiling within the organization is probably that #7/8 spot, but he's still young enough he could grab a 3rd pair spot in a couple years. Or he's just a guy who does a few seasons over here and heads back to Europe.
 

stevo61

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Not sure 27 WHL qualifies as a season, but sure.

I mean, I think his ceiling within the organization is probably that #7/8 spot, but he's still young enough he could grab a 3rd pair spot in a couple years. Or he's just a guy who does a few seasons over here and heads back to Europe.
It enough time to get acclimated to new surroundings was more my point so hopefully everything was less of a shock to him.

I was never wowed by him but did think he stepped up wearing his countries colors so if he can play like that over a full season Id look much more fondly at his NHL potential. The fact that he has a few prospects ahead of him in the same position probably takes some of the shine off too. I think it would be good for him to stick around for awhile though, even if its not here he can probably get a chance somewhere else
 
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