How Dubas keeps an NHL job is just incredible. Most overrated GM.
Confirmed Trade: [CAR/PIT] Jake Guentzel (25% retained), Ty Smith for Michael Bunting, Ville Koivunen, Vasili Ponomarev, Cruz Lucius, 2024 cond. 1st, 2024 cond. 5th
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Boom Boom Apathy
I am the Professor. Deal with it!
- Sep 6, 2006
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I'm not sure why you picked this deal to make that case. Historically, rentals without an extension get a late 1st and a prospect (and not a grade A prospect).
In this case Dubas got:
1) Bunting - a decent player who will put up 20G, 45-50 points
2) 3 prospects - 2 of them being good prospects close to NHL ready, the 3rd lead his NCAA team in scoring as an 18YO and again as a 19YO.
3) A late 1st or early 2nd round pick
There isn't a GM in the NHL that would have gotten much better than that. Rentals don't return top 15 prospects or early 1st round picks, regardless of how good the player is and no matter what HF fans think.
bleedgreen
Registered User
I’m having trouble with people having trouble with this. I think the anti Canes bias runs so deep no one would ever pay attention to our prospects the way they do anyone else’s. We just got our cupboard raided, two of our top five. Maybe our best two forward prospects. I don’t put any of our other forwards over these two aside from possibly Blake and you can make a pretty easy argument Koivunen is over Blake. Pono gets no love despite being a second rounder that’s been successful and about to make a veteran team that’s very difficult to make.
As you said elsewhere I believe, if we were Toronto people would be freaked out about giving up these two….or receiving them. Also rentals also rarely bring back a player that can go right into your top six. It’s a pretty huge overpay.
Players like Necas and Hoglander, and prospects like Nikishin never go for rentals. There’s zero history of it, and there’s no reason for it to start with Guentzel. We overpaid for Jake, but we had the prospects to do it.
@Boom Boom Apathy @bleedgreen
The problem is that Pens fans set themselves up for disappointment by proclaiming they would get players like Willander, Lekkerimaki, Hoglander, Morrow, Jarvis, Nikishin, Necas, etc.
The problem is that Pens fans set themselves up for disappointment by proclaiming they would get players like Willander, Lekkerimaki, Hoglander, Morrow, Jarvis, Nikishin, Necas, etc.
bleedgreen
Registered User
Well I try to forgive them because it’s been a long time since they sucked enough to be a seller with something to sell. Most other teams fans have been through it and already know their best players arent worth more than everyone else’s rentals.
This would be a decent haul if they were renting Crosby. The provisional second would be a guaranteed first, and the rest of this package would probably be good enough to rent Crosby or Malkin. Maybe another second. The prospects wouldn’t be any better and you wouldn’t get a better player than Bunting I bet.
Boom Boom Apathy
I am the Professor. Deal with it!
- Sep 6, 2006
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Sure, some Pens fans felt that way, but right now, we are talking about the job the GM did.
What Pens fans thought is irrelevant to the actual job the GM did, particularly because it was a Toronto fan that made the remark I responded to.
Excellent post, the visibility/awareness (or lack thereof) has been huge in distorting evaluations of this deal.
The Toronto point is extremely valid. We deemed Minten as untouchable and he's at best a Pono tier prospect.
Le Magnifique 66
Let's Go Pens
Good post, I liked the move and still do, I'm not one of those haters just because he didn't hit that big name like you said. It's very difficult to do for a rental. The last one and every GM probably learned was Erat for Forsberg!
Fans think KD went for quantity over quality but I disagree with it. Only time will tell but I have a good feeling all 3 can play in the NHL and have different roles on the team!
Boom Boom Apathy
I am the Professor. Deal with it!
- Sep 6, 2006
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And Erat wasn't a rental. He had 2 more years left on his deal after the season he was traded.
Svechhammer
THIS is hockey?
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For a rental, I think it was a good deal for Pitt. The guys they got should all be able to contribute at the NHL level in the next few years, though I'm pretty confident that none of them have a ceiling as high as JG. But thats what you get for a rental.
At the same time, I'm not really sure the guys who were traded were going to have much of a contributing role for the Canes going forward. Pono was already blocked by Drury and KK, and with Kuznetsov coming in, its even worse. For his own career, he needed to go somewhere else to get play, so I'm happy he's ending up in a spot where he'll have a chance to make a name for himself during the Pens transition period. And during that transition period, Lucius and Koivunen will get plenty of opportunity to play for a team more content looking toward the future rather than trying to win now, and that will only help them grow. But with the Canes, at best they were probably going to be 4th liners struggling to get consistent playing time, especially with guys like FUS, Nadeau, and maybe Blake possibly making a push in the future.
It was a good trade that makes both teams better going forward. Not sure either side has anything to complain about. Its not like Pitt was going to get a kings ransom for a rental, especially when 'if he resigns' conditional compensations aren't allowed anymore.
At the same time, I'm not really sure the guys who were traded were going to have much of a contributing role for the Canes going forward. Pono was already blocked by Drury and KK, and with Kuznetsov coming in, its even worse. For his own career, he needed to go somewhere else to get play, so I'm happy he's ending up in a spot where he'll have a chance to make a name for himself during the Pens transition period. And during that transition period, Lucius and Koivunen will get plenty of opportunity to play for a team more content looking toward the future rather than trying to win now, and that will only help them grow. But with the Canes, at best they were probably going to be 4th liners struggling to get consistent playing time, especially with guys like FUS, Nadeau, and maybe Blake possibly making a push in the future.
It was a good trade that makes both teams better going forward. Not sure either side has anything to complain about. Its not like Pitt was going to get a kings ransom for a rental, especially when 'if he resigns' conditional compensations aren't allowed anymore.
Le Magnifique 66
Let's Go Pens
My bad, I was under the impression he was a UFA at the time. Was too long ago! haha
I don’t think any reasonable Pens fan thought this would happen. You have to sort out the knowledgeable/reasonable takes from the noise.
CanesUltimate11
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Turin
Erik Karlsson is good
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Sorry, since when is 3 B level prospects and a 2nd bad for a rental? Do you guys know what kind of prospect Guentzel was until he hit the AHL and immediately lit it up? B or C. Bunting is not a cap dump. He's a 28 year old 4 year top six winger signed for less than 5 mill per year.
Nobody in their right mind actually thought Jarvis, Nikishin or Necas was on the table. The other pieces - unlikely. Though I think Hoglander was possible. Morrow - eh I don't know. I think Pens would rather have Ponomarev and Koivunen than Morrow.
hotpaws
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Bunting wasn't playing in the Canes top 6 and they wanted out of his contract , he's overpaid for what he does and that makes him a cap dump .
I'd rather a pkg of picks hoping to hit on a A prospects but hey if a pkg of meh make you happy for your best trade chip then i'm happy for you .
Turin
Erik Karlsson is good
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He's not overpaid. He makes 4.5 million, is under 30 and was good for 50+ points in Toronto. If anything he was underpaid in FA because teams were wary of the officials bias against him.
hotpaws
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people were wary of him because he turned into a clown and they knew his production was due to playing with Mathews/Marner
he's overpaid and the Canes had no use for him that's why they corrected there mistake and dumped him on you
Ryder71
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Would rather have the totality of the package we received from CAR than the HOG, '25 1st I touted.
Two of those prospects are pretty good possibilities, Bunting is a sold mid 6 forward a 1st OR more likely PHI (mid 2hd rounder), and a quality ncaa player as well. If even two of those guys work out that's a great deal for a guy who wouldn't help us in the short term (Jake) or the long run.
Ryder71
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Not even a little bit. At 1st I wasn't happy, but at the time I didn't research those prospects, once I did I felt much better about it. And for the record I'm rarely enamored with college defensemen. Regardless of how their touted much prefer forwards.
Brent Burns
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bleedgreen
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Boom Boom Apathy
I am the Professor. Deal with it!
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And in Carolina he was on pace for 18G, 49P without playing with top players.
He wasn't useless or a cap dump. He was a bad fit for Carolina's system, even Aho mentioned it in the Spittin Chiclets podcast. I get why Carolina signed him as they wanted more bite and he provides some offense, but he never quite meshed with the Canes system.
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