Confirmed Signing with Link: [CAR/MTL] Habs accept Kotkaniemi offer sheet (1 year, $6.1M), 2022 1st, 2022 3rd [Part II]

[japhi]

No, it doesn't make sense. He just signed a show me type contract. What purpose does a handshake deal serve? Handshake deal implies that terms are locked. And you seem to agree with me saying that if he scores 30 the terms might change. Which doesn't make it a handshake deal.

And I don't agree that a one year deal is a clear sign they want to invest in this player. If they wanted to invest in him, they could have offered term. But they didn't, because it would be stupid, because it is not clear what type of player KK will become.

We have Dundon's own words thankfully:

“Well we’ll see, if he plays good then it’ll make a lot of sense,” said Dundon. “If he doesn’t play as well as we’d hoped, then no matter what we do it won’t make sense."

FWIW I'm not arguing they aren't high on them - clearly they are - or that he won't sign long term , which I think is high probability. I'm simply saying the odds they have a pre determined deal in place seems very unlikely. Because it wouldn't make sense for the player or the team.

 

[Chrispy]

The handshake agreement makes no sense to me. Any agreement is going to be based on his play this year. If KK is PPG through 40 games you think he takes 4x4? And if he is .4ppg, same stretch, Canes sign him anyways?

I think this is all about rolling the dice and hoping the player breaks out. And if he does, paying him. I am sure they know the comps and scenarios, but a handshake that goes to paper no matter the outcome of the first half of the season? That doesn't pass the sniff test.

If he’s PPG through 40 I do not expect him to take the same deal he likely wanted from Montreal.

And if he’s PPG through 80, Carolina can sign him or take the QO and continue next year to see if it’s a fluke.

If he performs around his career pace, Carolina can try to sign him to a more reasonable extension, or take him to team enforced arbitration to reduce his salary for 22-23, or walk away and spend the $6M elsewhere next year after a full year rental for a similar price to what Toronto paid for 11 games of Nick Foligno. All the options belong to Carolina first.

I think it’s clear Carolina thinks Kotkaniemi can develop into much more and saw an opportunity to add a young talent they can keep for a few years. But if it flops, it’s a 1 year risk.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Aren't Kotkaniemi and Aho BFFs forever? That'd certainly sway Kotkankemi in signing for at least the next 3-4 years. Unless Teravainen gets jealous of Kaskot, like Eric Staal was jealous of Skinner in the early teens.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

No, it doesn't make sense. He just signed a show me type contract. What purpose does a handshake deal serve? Handshake deal implies that terms are locked. And you seem to agree with me saying that if he scores 30 the terms might change. Which doesn't make it a handshake deal.

And I don't agree that a one year deal is a clear sign they want to invest in this player. If they wanted to invest in him, they could have offered term. But they didn't, because it would be stupid, because it is not clear what type of player KK will become.

We have Dundon's own words thankfully:

“Well we’ll see, if he plays good then it’ll make a lot of sense,” said Dundon. “If he doesn’t play as well as we’d hoped, then no matter what we do it won’t make sense."

FWIW I'm not arguing they aren't high on them - clearly they are - or that he won't sign long term , which I think is high probability. I'm simply saying the odds they have a pre determined deal in place seems very unlikely. Because it wouldn't make sense for the player or the team.

I think they have discussed a number of potential options for extensions. Obviously things can change and based on his production this year and fit it will determine the new term but it sounds like there is a good dialogue on this between the two sides.

It’s foolish to interpret these reports as ‘THERES A 100% WORKED OUT AGREEMENT IN PLACE AND NOTHING THAT HAPPENS THIS YEAR WILL CHANGE THAT’

Obviously that’s not the case at all but likely more a of a frame work based on a few circumstances so that they have an understanding of the options moving forward.

 

[japhi]

I think they have discussed a number of potential options for extensions. Obviously things can change and based on his production this year and fit it will determine the new term but it sounds like there is a good dialogue on this between the two sides.

It’s foolish to interpret these reports as ‘THERES A 100% WORKED OUT AGREEMENT IN PLACE AND NOTHING THAT HAPPENS THIS YEAR WILL CHANGE THAT’

Obviously that’s not the case at all but likely more a of a frame work based on a few circumstances so that they have an understanding of the options moving forward.

sure, don’t disagree that they have had discussions. But handshake deal has an actual
meaning, as in they have agreed upon terms and are only waiting to put wet ink to paper. That the deal is SET. That is why you shake hands, to solidify an actual agreement, not a set of what ifs.

What you describe above is far from that. I think we agree then there is no set deal in place, therefore no handshake deal, which is all I’m saying. So anyone that wants to quote me and argue please understand my position and the meaning of hand shake deal .

 

[japhi]

If he’s PPG through 40 I do not expect him to take the same deal he likely wanted from Montreal.

And if he’s PPG through 80, Carolina can sign him or take the QO and continue next year to see if it’s a fluke.

If he performs around his career pace, Carolina can try to sign him to a more reasonable extension, or take him to team enforced arbitration to reduce his salary for 22-23, or walk away and spend the $6M elsewhere next year after a full year rental for a similar price to what Toronto paid for 11 games of Nick Foligno. All the options belong to Carolina first.

I think it’s clear Carolina thinks Kotkaniemi can develop into much more and saw an opportunity to add a young talent they can keep for a few years. But if it flops, it’s a 1 year risk.

Correct, there are numerous scenarios to be played out, and those scenarios will dictate what deal - or no deal - they end up negotiating.

 

[tarheelhockey]

But that's the thing. I'm not speculating. Those who are imagining "handshake agreements" are speculating. They are inventing things to feel better about what went down.

Agents are there to assist you legally, to get contracts that will protect you and your family. Not to shake hands in fictional deals.

How do these handshake deals work? Like, if Kotkaniemi breaks in arm in 2, do the Hurricanes honor that 4 year handshake deal?

If Kotkaniemi breaks out to 90 points, do they still have that 3-year handshake agreement?

Of course they don't. Because there is no such thing as handshake agreement on NHL contracts. Because contracts are complicated, and people negotiate them at the last minute to get as much information and leverage and certainty as possible.

Reality is not speculation. There are no agreements because there is no contract. Nothing binds these sides until an extension is signed, contractually. If you think otherwise, you're probably not an adult, and have never signed any kind of contract. You will find the hard way that verbal agreements and handshake deals are a sure way to get f***ed. No amount of handshaking is gonna change that.

That is why multimillionaires hire lawyers and agents. To not get f***ed.
And lawyers and agents don't shake hands to get what they want. They make you sign on the dotted line.

Anyone who believes it works any differently is the one speculating.

I agree that the people saying there’s a handshake deal are speculating.

You are also speculating when you say he will hold their feet to the fire for every penny.

As naive as it might be to think verbal contracts will be honored regardless of circumstance, it’s equally naive to think businessmen get into multimillion dollar contracts without some sort of discussion about where it will be in 12 months.

I’ll go back to what I said before — we’re missing what Kotkaniemi thinks, what has been discussed behind closed doors, and what his season will look like. An argument about whether his next contract will be X or Y is absurd. It’s just a bunch of people bickering over things they have no clue about. We’ll just wait and see what happens, as it’s literally the only option on the table for finding out where this ends.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

sure, don’t disagree that they have had discussions. But handshake deal has an actual
meaning, as in they have agreed upon terms and are only waiting to put wet ink to paper. That the deal is SET. That is why you shake hands, to solidify an actual agreement, not a set of what ifs.

What you describe above is far from that. I think we agree then there is no set deal in place, therefore no handshake deal, which is all I’m saying. So anyone that wants to quote me and argue please understand my position and the meaning of hand shake deal .

I think we’re arguing over semantics. Perhaps the term handshake agreement is an overreach here a bit but it seems there’s discussions and of numbers thrown out there as potential landing spots. That’s good enough for the purposes for now.

 

[Ciao]

If he’s PPG through 40 I do not expect him to take the same deal he likely wanted from Montreal.

And if he’s PPG through 80, Carolina can sign him or take the QO and continue next year to see if it’s a fluke.

If he performs around his career pace, Carolina can try to sign him to a more reasonable extension, or take him to team enforced arbitration to reduce his salary for 22-23, or walk away and spend the $6M elsewhere next year after a full year rental for a similar price to what Toronto paid for 11 games of Nick Foligno. All the options belong to Carolina first.

I think it’s clear Carolina thinks Kotkaniemi can develop into much more and saw an opportunity to add a young talent they can keep for a few years. But if it flops, it’s a 1 year risk.

I think they would have to qualify him to have the right to arbitration.

 

[D4ngleSZN]

Lol they gave up Hamilton for...a 3rd/4th line C lel

 

[Scintillating10]

Kk will start out great. Look like a steal in October/ November. By March Canes fans will be down to okay with deal. A year and half from now Canes fans be saying wish we had kept our picks. Lot of talent was available. Could have used his caphit to sign good UFA. Or keep a player here. Kk is very up and down

 

[Hostile Offer]

Aren't Kotkaniemi and Aho BFFs forever? That'd certainly sway Kotkankemi in signing for at least the next 3-4 years. Unless Teravainen gets jealous of Kaskot, like Eric Staal was jealous of Skinner in the early teens.

I'm sure being a fellow Finn helps building a relationship but I think this is the first time Aho and Kotkaniemi have ever played on the same team so I doubt they know each other that well. I could be wrong though.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Lol they gave up Hamilton for...a 3rd/4th line C lel

LOL, you just showed us with one post that you:
1) Can't tell the difference between a 1 year dealing for a 21 year old and a 7 year deal for a 28 year old.
2) Can't tell the difference between $6M and $9M
3) Don't understand cap management.

Great job!

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Kk will start out great. Look like a steal in October/ November. By March Canes fans will be down to okay with deal. A year and half from now Canes fans be saying wish we had kept our picks. Lot of talent was available. Could have used his caphit to sign good UFA. Or keep a player here. Kk is very up and down

At that point in time, no they could not have. A number of posters had stated this, but don't provide any realistic examples. Canes were trying to sign a UFA and there were a lot of sources stating they were going after Saad (see below) and a few others. It was only after those options dried up that they went after Kotkaniemi.

As I posted earlier in the thread:

Here are the UFA signings last year for players that didn't re-sign with their same team:

Coleman: 6 year, $29.4M. Long, expensive and not a legit top 6 player
Hyman: 7 year, $38.5M: No thanks on that contract.
Foligno: 2 years, $7.6M: hasn't been top 6 material in 5 seasons.
Saad: 5 year, $22M: was rumored the Canes were talking to him, but he re-signed with the same team. EDIT: Chose STL
Hoffman: 3 years, $13.5M: Not a Brindy type player. Likely would have gone as well as Dzingel in Carolina
Granlund: Re-signed with same team
Haula: Been there, done that
Palmeri: Re-signed with his same team.
Tatar: 2 years, $9M: were rumors Canes were in on him, and I'd have been ok with that.

I wasn't a fan of the Kotkaniemi acquisition so I'm not making it out to be a good move, only time will tell, but the "they could have signed someone in UFA" comment really is more pie in the sky than reality, particularly because that's what they tried to do first. By the time they signed Kotkaniemi, the market had dried up and the Canes missed out on Saad.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I'm sure being a fellow Finn helps building a relationship but I think this is the first time Aho and Kotkaniemi have ever played on the same team so I doubt they know each other that well. I could be wrong though.

I love the username change!

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Kk will start out great. Look like a steal in October/ November. By March Canes fans will be down to okay with deal. A year and half from now Canes fans be saying wish we had kept our picks. Lot of talent was available. Could have used his caphit to sign good UFA. Or keep a player here. Kk is very up and down

its likely going to be a late 1st and a late 3rd
I dont think theres too much to regret here bud.
your talking about a 21 year old like he is what he is.... he's still developing
but thanks for the biased opinion

 

[Chrispy]

I think they would have to qualify him to have the right to arbitration.

Here is a breakdown of the 2020 RFA deadlines.

Time for a refresher because the first RFA-related deadline comes before Qualifying Offers are due.
…
Club Elected Arbitration (First Window)

Because this period comes before the Qualifying Offer is due, the arbitration election can be in lieu of that QO.

There is also a second window that can only be used after extending a QO, and after the player declines salary arbitration. This is what MIN did with Fiala this year.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

I posted this on the Habs board but I may as well post it here too. Here is a comparison of KK and Evans (our rookie 4th line center) during the regular season.

Last year during the regular season at 5vs5:

KK: 1.37 pts/60 min - Playing with Toffoli, Drouin, Anderson
Evans: 1.31 pts/60 min - On the 4th line

On special teams:

KK: 106 minutes on the PP, 4 points
Evans: 3 minutes on the PP, 0 points

KK: 1 minute on the PK, 0 points
Evans: 85 minutes on the PK, 2 points

Faceoffs taken by zone (OZ/NZ/DZ):

KK: 236/183/130
Evans: 100/136/169

Basically KK even got outplayed by Jake Evans. But I'm sure that's totally the Habs' fault as well he'll earn every cent of his 6 million this year.

well enjoy moving forward with Evans who is 25 years old and basically is what he is. but sure take him over the 21 year old that you drafted 3rd overall.
If Kotka was a Hab still you would be laughing at anyone who was trying to say Evans is better than Kotka
It's amazing that Hab players are the greatest ever then once they leave they were crap the entire time and will just be a 4th liner. but a couple months ago he was projected to be a 1st or 2nd line player.... What happened?

 

[Arthur Morgan]

But that's the thing. I'm not speculating. Those who are imagining "handshake agreements" are speculating. They are inventing things to feel better about what went down.

Couldn't read anymore after seeing that.....
Why what inside information do you have?
Do you have actual evidence or spoken to both parties if you are in fact correct?
No? Didn't think so.
So I guess you are in fact..... Speculating

 

[Habs Halifax]

Couldn't read anymore after seeing that.....
Why what inside information do you have?
Do you have actual evidence or spoken to both parties if you are in fact correct?
No? Didn't think so.
So I guess you are in fact..... Speculating

I'm going to speculate that you are also speculating on someone else's post they they may or may not be speculating....

 

[TopTenPlayz]

well enjoy moving forward with Evans who is 25 years old and basically is what he is. but sure take him over the 21 year old that you drafted 3rd overall.
If Kotka was a Hab still you would be laughing at anyone who was trying to say Evans is better than Kotka
It's amazing that Hab players are the greatest ever then once they leave they were crap the entire time and will just be a 4th liner. but a couple months ago he was projected to be a 1st or 2nd line player.... What happened?

Looking at your posts history, you write a lot of crap on the Habs and their players. Say what you want, the Habs will still kick the Leafs' ass in the playoffs despite having no Matthews, Marner, etc. Call it like it is, the Leafs will always be the Habs' little brother in this lifetime and the next.

 

[D4ngleSZN]

LOL, you just showed us with one post that you:
1) Can't tell the difference between a 1 year dealing for a 21 year old and a 7 year deal for a 28 year old.
2) Can't tell the difference between $6M and $9M
3) Don't understand cap management.

Great job!

Nice cap management spending 6.1 mill on a 3/4c with a 6 mil QO lmfao

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Nice cap management spending 6.1 mill on a 3/4c with a 6 mil QO lmfao

Keep going, you’re proving my point even more.

 

[D4ngleSZN]

Keep going, you’re proving my point even more.

I mean do you disagree he's a 3/4c getting paid 6.1 mil? He's getting 2.4mill less than draisatl lmfao

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

I mean do you disagree he's a 3/4c getting paid 6.1 mil? He's getting 2.4mill less than draisatl lmfao

awww you're trying so hard. bless you heart.