Speculation: Caps Roster General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2022-23 Season Part 3: Drop the puck!

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g00n

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MacLellan is on record as planning on waiting until the last minute...but is it even feasible to pivot to last minute seller?

What were the exact words? My read on something like that is to dispel talk of trades in the near term, to get the current squad to focus, and to keep values high. You can't go out and say "we're ready to drop trou and take whatever we can get right now." Only an idiot would do that.
 

Langway

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“I think we have to play it out here a little bit," MacLellan said on the podcast, adding, "We're an LTI team now; we have to prepare to bring guys back if we choose to do that. We'll make decisions at the last possible moment."
Sounds like a buyer's mindset when it comes to adding vs. maintaining cap space to activate the injured. Everything sort of pivots on whether Carlson will stay on LTIR I guess. Those statements were from a couple weeks ago but they won't know much more on Carlson until the end of the month.

Certainly there's nothing stopping MacLellan from exploring the market for any of their pending UFAs, even if they don't ultimately move them. But you wonder if they're in that frame of mind of fully exploring every option. It seems more likely if they do sell it will be soft selling of an Eller and then probably augmented by adding a depth D. Packing it in altogether doesn't seem like something they'd seriously consider. I'd wager they'd believe that they're failing Ovechkin if they were to do that. When they're sort of already at that point playing NAK with him and generally just mucking along.
 

Empty Goal Net

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Oshie recently made mention of his back injury stemming from his foot injury last year. He also mentioned how there will be weeks where he can't walk and "that's the way she goes." He's also recently had core surgery. It's hard to imagine him turning things around from a health-standpoint. The on-ice results reflect the injuries piling up.

I don't know that there will be a trade partner that will take on 2 more years a $5.75 million without a sweetener attached. Most teams will probably stay away from him. He also has a 10 team no trade list.

But I think the Capitals have to attach a sweetener if that's what it takes. Or see if they can LTIR him. It's hard to envision the trend above reversing given the injuries, and Washington can't keep having that level of performance from a $5.75M guy.
Your summary/analysis raises the question ... if a player's ability to perform is so significantly affected by either a single injury or an accumulation of injuries suffered over his career, is moving that player to LTIR and obtaining the resultant cap relief - and even retirement - consistent with the spirit of the rules/NHLPA agreement? If not, why not move the governing framework in that direction? Players - especially someone like Osh - want to play. But for their long-term health, isn't it worth considering allowing them to step back and avoid the possibility or even likelihood that they will be sacrificing their future health and well-being so that they meet the expectations that have been placed on them since childhood in many cases? Of course, it's all up to the individual player, and due to their acculturation many will not walk away from their playing "obligations," but the framework governing their practice of their trade should make it easier for all - player, team, union, owners and league - to choose a path that benefits their long-term health over a game.
 

g00n

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Sounds like a buyer's mindset when it comes to adding vs. maintaining cap space to activate the injured. Everything sort of pivots on whether Carlson will stay on LTIR I guess. Those statements were from a couple weeks ago but they won't know much more on Carlson until the end of the month.

Certainly there's nothing stopping MacLellan from exploring the market for any of their pending UFAs, even if they don't ultimately move them. But you wonder if they're in that frame of mind of fully exploring every option. It seems more likely if they do sell it will be soft selling of an Eller and then probably augmented by adding a depth D. Packing it in altogether doesn't seem like something they'd seriously consider. I'd wager they'd believe that they're failing Ovechkin if they were to do that. When they're sort of already at that point playing NAK with him and generally just mucking along.

I think that answers your question about the pivot to last minute seller. They have too many variables to consider so they have to allow some things to play out (points pace, new injuries, guys coming back from IR, how each roster spot is being filled, etc).

They might be forced to go from buying to selling.

By Mar 15 they'll have played roughly half of their remaining games and will be coming off a stretch of several divisional opponents, plus a few games vs Buffalo. At the most recent 10 game paces for all teams that would be enough time for all the teams I mentioned above to pass them. And that's not even considering possible 4 point swings in head to head matchups (Isles and Panthers once, Sabres twice).

I assume they're scouting with this in mind, and other teams will surely be looking to pick the carcass and have a wishlist filled out long before we know the plan.

edit: got my dates mixed up, by Mar 15 it will be too late for this season. Per my previous post they have to make the call NOW.
 
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PlushMinus

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What is taking Carlson so long to come back? Could it be a skull fracture / concussion?

If it was "just" the ear needing to be re-attached then I would think he'd have been back already and wearing some kind of ear protection?
 

Ridley Simon

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I mentioned it last offseason but as a team with limited prospects to use as trade chips I would highly consider using Martin Fehervary as a trade chip.

He hasn’t really made any strides this year. He’s safer this year defensively but is among the league’s worst offensive playdrivers as measured by RAPM. It’s hard for me to see much improvement in the coming years given he’s already 23. I think a decent #5 guy is probably his likeliest outcome at this point, and that’s hardly someone who should be untouchable.

But he plays 19+ minutes a night, is a good skater, and is physical. I think that carries value around the league.

He’s due a raise next year coming off his ELC. I suspect it’ll come in the $2 million to $3 million range if they bridge him (and they absolutely should bridge him instead of giving him a long-term deal). I think there will be cheaper options available in free agency this offseason to replace what Fehervary brings as well.
Careful. The wrath of spited Siegenthaler fans may fall upon you. Woe to you!!!
 
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Brian23

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It's also just a silly thing to suggest when our whole defensive corp is in question *and* Defensemen can take some time to adjust to the NHL.

If he has value around the league he has value here, where we essentially have zero defensemen signed for next year.
 

Langway

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They have too many variables to consider so they have to allow some things to play out (points pace, new injuries, guys coming back from IR, how each roster spot is being filled, etc).
Sure, but my question is whether the market allows for such patience. Will teams wait and run the risk of missing out on someone promised to move in a limited market for a player that may or may not move? Can they captivate the market? There are only so many first round picks likely to change hands. I'd wager maybe seven or eight in 2023 but maybe only two or three for a D. To make it worthwhile they'd need to get firsts for Orlov & Jensen and it's hard to say whether they're being put out there. It's not a decision to be taken lightly given their near-term value as D staples. Subtract the two and it may usher in a rebuild in full. Nice to add a couple firsts but not without significant subtractions.

Not sure it can get that bad in three weeks to blow it up to that extent. But mostly I'm not sure selling would garner ownership approval for morale reasons. They legit feel obligated to pull out all stops to do whatever they can to maintain and I'm sure that's likely to dictate the path forward. It seems more likely they'd just do the own-rental of most, hope for the best and maybe execute a shake-up trade. Mantha out (maybe with sweeteners) for a cheaper forward and depth D. Something of that nature that largely treads water but gets a head start on next year's cap. I'd be pretty floored if they reached the conclusion this team doesn't have it and sold Orlov, Jensen, Sheary, Eller, Johansson, TVR and Gus for picks. It would be pretty out of character. As much as they need to get younger in theory, in practice it needs to be highly capable youth and they've really struggled to find it lately. Hard then to expect more beyond the typical stopgap, chugging along approach.
 

twabby

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If he has value around the league he has value here, where we essentially have zero defensemen signed for next year.

Ben Chiarot netted a first round pick, a fourth round pick, and a prospect from Florida last year. There are some wacky valuations of players around the league, especially defensemen. The way teams value players is hardly symmetric.
 

Devil Dancer

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I'd be surprised if the market values Jensen as highly was we do around here.

I know it's not quantitative, but I watch a lot of games with the non-Caps feed and Jensen might as well not exist. Carlson and Orlov get attention, and even Fever gets some talk, but almost never Jensen.
 
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IafrateOvie34

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I'm confident they will have about the same odds for playoffs and in playoffs after selling at deadline

Same here, no reason for them to go in this year. The back to back with Philly destroyed this team's playoff chances imho. If they make it in, they get swept by the Bruins. It's reality and I don't want anymore of our prospects going for rentals. The team will always have my support, but I can't bear the loss of future stars for guys like Erat at the deadline.
 
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Raikkonen

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Jensen is cheap
there could be a prospect of resigning

#1 easily and some more probably because it is valuable for some team out there

contending teams will get in line for him, and more eagerly if retained
 

HTFN

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I mentioned it last offseason but as a team with limited prospects to use as trade chips I would highly consider using Martin Fehervary as a trade chip.

He hasn’t really made any strides this year. He’s safer this year defensively but is among the league’s worst offensive playdrivers as measured by RAPM. It’s hard for me to see much improvement in the coming years given he’s already 23. I think a decent #5 guy is probably his likeliest outcome at this point, and that’s hardly someone who should be untouchable.

But he plays 19+ minutes a night, is a good skater, and is physical. I think that carries value around the league.

He’s due a raise next year coming off his ELC. I suspect it’ll come in the $2 million to $3 million range if they bridge him (and they absolutely should bridge him instead of giving him a long-term deal). I think there will be cheaper options available in free agency this offseason to replace what Fehervary brings as well.
lmfao you suuuuuure did

a safe cheap #4 is still better for the Capitals than not having one, nobody's going to pay more than what he's worth in that respect because they also wouldn't likely see a huge offensive shift at 23.
 

g00n

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Sure, but my question is whether the market allows for such patience. Will teams wait and run the risk of missing out on someone promised to move in a limited market for a player that may or may not move? Can they captivate the market? There are only so many first round picks likely to change hands. I'd wager maybe seven or eight in 2023 but maybe only two or three for a D. To make it worthwhile they'd need to get firsts for Orlov & Jensen and it's hard to say whether they're being put out there. It's not a decision to be taken lightly given their near-term value as D staples. Subtract the two and it may usher in a rebuild in full. Nice to add a couple firsts but not without significant subtractions.

Not sure it can get that bad in three weeks to blow it up to that extent. But mostly I'm not sure selling would garner ownership approval for morale reasons. They legit feel obligated to pull out all stops to do whatever they can to maintain and I'm sure that's likely to dictate the path forward. It seems more likely they'd just do the own-rental of most, hope for the best and maybe execute a shake-up trade. Mantha out (maybe with sweeteners) for a cheaper forward and depth D. Something of that nature that largely treads water but gets a head start on next year's cap. I'd be pretty floored if they reached the conclusion this team doesn't have it and sold Orlov, Jensen, Sheary, Eller, Johansson, TVR and Gus for picks. It would be pretty out of character. As much as they need to get younger in theory, in practice it needs to be highly capable youth and they've really struggled to find it lately. Hard then to expect more beyond the typical stopgap, chugging along approach.

Show me a team that doesn't want to find "highly capable youth".

Your comment was more about timing as I read it, regarding waiting until the last minute.

The market is what it is. A few teams are making moves early but that always seems to happen maybe a month or so out. Then things quiet down, and a few moves trickle in up until a day or so before the TDL when almost all the action happens. Time pressure drives up the urgency for both sides, but if you don't need to make the move you have the advantage. The only moves the Caps may need to make could be regarding LTIR cap space. Timing on that is not up to the FO.

I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

As for the scale of trades...a little shake up vs a firesale... who can say for sure. I did mention in the comment about Oshie that I don't think Ted wants another firesale. And there probably won't be one. They're not going to dump a dozen or so UFAs and call up half of Hershey or trot out some rando rental JAGs who were thrown in to small time trades along with late round picks. Ovie and Backstrom aren't being moved, Wilson probably isn't being moved, Oshie is a maybe. Carlson and Kuzy SHOULD be moved but that's a coin flip imo. Just trading those two wouldn't be considered an "everything must go" firesale, even adding Mantha and Eller to the mix. But it would be a "shake things up" selling move for sure.

People seem to assume the FO staff are clueless and don't see any of this. We know Gmbm likes to dangle term in order to keep cap numbers lower than market, but the Milano and Strome extensions surprised me in their timing. Those signings showed me the FO is again correctly judging player value based on performance, at least within its own roster. Gmbm's comments before the December run add evidence to that assessment. Pro scouting is another question which makes trades feel more dangerous.

So in general, I think they have a plan, or at least a list of priorities, based on their analysis of the roster. They may "keep the powder dry" on many of the >2M UFAs like Mojo or Hathaway etc and play out the season before making a call on such things, out of necessity since those guys are not priority youth/speed/skill pieces that have to be dealt with first. Or they may flip the most valuable chips and let the rest walk.

Whatever it is, half the league is probably looking to buy at the TDL when prices are high so I'm not that worried about running out of time to get things done. Many here seem to be unable to handle the uncertainty and anxiety that comes with NOT making moves and they get pissed off that things aren't happening fast enough to ease that tension.

Chill. Only one team wins the Cup. The odds are ALWAYS against us.

edit: and I got the date confused with something else wrt the TDL, so they don't have the luxury of waiting for some of the LTIR or other trends to play out. Chances are, being in a playoff spot now, they'll default to the least amount of player movement necessary.
 
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Langway

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Biggest bit of news I guess is that Carlson has an additional scheduled check-up in mid-March. So that's about a dozen games thereafter at best if he gets cleared around then. There's only a half dozen games between the trade deadline and that point but if the timeline is that far out can they afford to wait? A lot would be riding on it.

The other bit that continues to align with previous TEB reports is they believe they're "deep" up front. Deeply average I guess, with more attention placed on D should Carlson remain out. So something like LTIR'ing Carlson and trading for Klingberg seems in character. There's a chance they could snag Klingberg relatively cheap after the season he's had but ultimately it probably doesn't change much. You get the sense they don't really know what to do up front beyond not having any glaring weak links 1-12. The Strome/Milano extensions were vaguely related to being younger but that alone isn't the answer. Style of play and ability to drive play regardless of age have to be bigger priorities and they don't seem to be able to identify or manufacture those types of heavy lifters. Bergeron is old. He's also still an elite play driver. So it's not just age at issue.
 
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BiPolar Caps

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Watching the Rangers game on NHL Network last night and there's highlights of Sammy with the clean sheet against Columbus, talking up Copley with the Kings this season, showing Grubauer on the Kraken bench (did he really lose the starting job to Jones?) and got to thinking of Varlamov with the Isles and Vanecek with the Devils. We really were a goalie factory for a while.
 

g00n

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Biggest bit of news I guess is that Carlson has an additional scheduled check-up in mid-March. So that's about a dozen games thereafter at best if he gets cleared around then. There's only a half dozen games between the trade deadline and that point but if the timeline is that far out can they afford to wait? A lot would be riding on it.

The other bit that continues to align with previous TEB reports is they believe they're "deep" up front. Deeply average I guess, with more attention placed on D should Carlson remain out. So something like LTIR'ing Carlson and trading for Klingberg seems in character. There's a chance they could snag Klingberg relatively cheap after the season he's had but ultimately it probably doesn't change much. You get the sense they don't really know what to do up front beyond not having any glaring weak links 1-12. The Strome/Milano extensions were vaguely related to being younger but that alone isn't the answer. Style of play and ability to drive play regardless of age have to be bigger priorities and they don't seem to be able to identify or manufacture those types of heavy lifters. Bergeron is old. He's also still an elite play driver. So it's not just age at issue.

This was the exact comment on Carlson:

1676120889408.png


He has an "important" appointment in February. We don't know what it is. There's still a chance he's cleared then, and the mid-March check up is a follow-up of some kind. We don't know for sure.

You also left out the context of the "deep up front" comment.

TEB: "....assuming Wilson and Dowd return and no other forwards get hurt — dangerous assumption, I know — they feel like they’re deep up front."

If Kuzy and maybe Mantha produce I don't think that statement is false, do you?
 

Peeri

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Doesn't look like Carlson is back this season, even more reasons to be sellers at TDL. For the love of god do not go and commit to Karlson on a long term.
 
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BiPolar Caps

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Biggest bit of news I guess is that Carlson has an additional scheduled check-up in mid-March. So that's about a dozen games thereafter at best if he gets cleared around then. There's only a half dozen games between the trade deadline and that point but if the timeline is that far out can they afford to wait? A lot would be riding on it.

The other bit that continues to align with previous TEB reports is they believe they're "deep" up front. Deeply average I guess, with more attention placed on D should Carlson remain out. So something like LTIR'ing Carlson and trading for Klingberg seems in character. There's a chance they could snag Klingberg relatively cheap after the season he's had but ultimately it probably doesn't change much. You get the sense they don't really know what to do up front beyond not having any glaring weak links 1-12. The Strome/Milano extensions were vaguely related to being younger but that alone isn't the answer. Style of play and ability to drive play regardless of age have to be bigger priorities and they don't seem to be able to identify or manufacture those types of heavy lifters. Bergeron is old. He's also still an elite play driver. So it's not just age at issue.
Why surrender assets (picks/prospects) for the likes of a Klingburg, Shattenkirk or Edmundson? Are any of these difference makers? Caps are currently maxed with 50 contracts and if they want to sign Frank, a contract has to come off the books along with another contract if you are taking on a DMan to fill Carlson's shoes.

Now if you're talking moving Mantha for one of them, then I'm all ears as long as it's not another Richard Panik type transaction where we add a pick.

If it's just about obtaining a dman, they could have just picked up Hajek from the Rangers via waivers, though Hajek is a LD.
 
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Langway

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If Kuzy and maybe Mantha produce I don't think that statement is false, do you?
Pretty massive if and, even then, in terms of pure goal-scorers behind Ovechkin it's paper thin. The combination of both thin goal-scorers and inconsistent (at best) play-driving and creation from the center position makes it a pretty mediocre group. When they're defending with purpose and have the puck more often than not they've got a shot but they have to work awfully hard for what they get. Whereas truly higher-end teams are better able to dictate at will. They're past that stage now and overall don't quite execute systematically to the point where a more widescreen team approach is likely to carry them all that far.

Despite their issues they've still got a shot at the playoffs. But certainly IMO Florida has a higher top-end thanks to their closer-to-peak impact players. Even Buffalo offers a stiffer top-end group at this stage. So it seems mostly on team-wide engagement, defense and effort as the recipe for modest success. But it's a very thin margin. Maybe adding Klingberg for Mantha+ does more for them than adding a comparable valued forward (say Barbashev or maybe JVR). I can buy that. But it's still pretty far from a group I'd have any confidence in being any sharper or more deadly than recent playoff performances.
 
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