Speculation: Caps Roster General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2022-23 Season Part 3: Drop the puck!

[Ridley Simon]

Sad that CMM felt he had to fight to keep a spot in the lineup

LOL. And you know this, how? What a bunch on nonsense

 

[FlyguyOX]

The last guy that worked well with Carlson was not what I would call a strong defensive partner.

He was extremely mobile and just good enough defensively, which is what I think they see in Fever with a lot more upside than a Kempny.

I think TVR would get exposed with Carlson’s workload.


I like a teammate standing up for another…..it’s honorable.

It was a clean hit and hardly even vicious. The fight by a skill player was silly. But the player apparently thought doing it is part of his role on his team when it should be scoring goals. Silly.

 

[Brian23]

LOL. And you know this, how? What a bunch on nonsense

Come on now, you can't be that obtuse.

 

[Ridley Simon]

It was a clean hit and hardly even vicious. The fight by a skill player was silly. But the player apparently thought doing it is part of his role on his team when it should be scoring goals. Silly.

Or maybe he just didn’t like the hit and was mad. I highly highly highly doubt anyone on the team was expecting CMM to mix it up.

But I also would wager it won him a lot of points from his teammates. And that would have been the case on any team. Let’s not make a narrative out of this.

Come on now, you can't be that obtuse.

Please. See above.

 

[Brian23]

But I also would wager it won him a lot of points from his teammates. And that would have been the case on any team. Let’s not make a narrative out of this.

This is literally the point. It's not like Lavi went and told McM to go fight anyone, but he has to do things like that to get any playtime.

Lavi has always had a player in his dog house, at some point I don't think it's entirely about the players.

 

[Ridley Simon]

This is literally the point. It's not like Lavi went and told McM to go fight anyone, but he has to do things like that to get any playtime.

Lavi has always had a player in his dog house, at some point I don't think it's entirely about the players.

It’s not the point though. If you think the Caps are alone in that, then I’m not sure what to tell you. Mindsets like that have been around the NHL since I started watching it in 1978.

Old school, new school, NO school. Teammates like teammates that have their backs.

Not sure what’s so unique about this instance.

 

[BackToTheBasics]

I chose the wrong time to see the Capitals play in person unfortunately but it was clear that penalties dictated the game. The Capitals were effective at not allowing the Senators to play cleanly or get any type of breakout going in the first period and capitalized on their powerplay chances but their lack of discipline took away any momentum they had and they never recovered. I'm surprised no one has mentioned this play:


I like what Gustafsson brings offensively at times but this kind of softness isn't going to cut it. I'd like to see Johansen get a game or two. No use in just keeping the young guys from getting opportunities for a guy who has proven that he can't contribute to winning.

 

[g00n]

Sad that CMM felt he had to fight to keep a spot in the lineup

Is it? Why?

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

It was a clean hit and hardly even vicious. The fight by a skill player was silly. But the player apparently thought doing it is part of his role on his team when it should be scoring goals. Silly.

So you’re not a stick up for your teammate guy…noted. CMM is a big boy. I doubt he’s beating himself up over it today.

I’d wager his teammates respect him a little more today as well.

 

[Hivemind]

Re: McMike

Something I’ve noticed this fanbase do often is pin all of their answers on the lack of ice time for one relatively minor young player. Will McMichael be good? It’s possible, but the fanboyism on Twitter and RMNB would have you believe we’re healthy scratching McDavid. Regardless of where you fall, his ice time is not the difference in us winning it losing.


I think McMichael looks raw as hell, and over his career I do think he’s getting a fair amount of TOI. When he’s playing he largely feels like he’s trying to do too much and gripping his stick too tight. Lots of pucks being lost because he skates straight into defenders, mishandles the puck, or shanks a shot. I don’t know how you can truly go to a team that’s still attempting to compete and say “this guy isn’t actually cashing in on the time he’s seeing on the ice, so we’re going to give him more time”. I look at a guy like Protas and I feel like he’s just more present on the ice. Heck, even Lapierre, whole raw as hell, felt dangerous.


This isn’t me saying McMike is bad or a bust but more so that I just don’t see why he’s become the anointed one. Previously it was Vrana, before him Burakovsky, etc.

I've refuted this perspective multiple times in the past, so I'm not gonna go into much detail here. But McMichael did plenty with the very limited ice time and opportunities he got. I'm not just talking his advanced metrics (which were outstanding), but just even his raw points/60, which were better than Oshie and Backstrom's. For a player with heavily limited minutes, often playing out of position and without skilled linemates, and zero powerplay time - he did excellent.

Further still - Lavi has repeatedly demonstrated that there's no linkage between the level of CMM's play and how much ice time he receives. Look at CMM's best pre-season game this year, where he was scoring and unquestionably the best Capitals forward, and he had the least even-strength ice time of any Capitals forward who finished the game. Look at last year, where in a game in which Carl Hagelin scored against his own team and CMM scored a goal in the correct net, Hagelin still saw more ice time than CMM down the stretch. It doesn't matter how well CMM does or doesn't play, so far Lavi has refused to utilize him beyond the bare minimum level.

Also, if you're gonna pick on "anointed ones" as an example that the fanbase is setting expectations out of line with reality, you picked some pretty poor examples there. Vrana has 22G and 32P in 39GP since joining Detroit. Injuries have limited his total time, but he's more than lived up to the hype while on the ice. Meanwhile, Burakovsky just won his second Stanley Cup and is off to a point/game start in Seattle.

 

[Langway]

I'm not sure Fehervary has more upside than Kempny. I was fine giving MF a pass late last season with COVID and the rookie wall but I'm not sure he has the sense to progress beyond a high effort tweener (at least under the current course). He's fast yet its application doesn't accomplish much. He battles yet without more composure on the puck I don't know what it's worth. It's not like he's the biggest or widest guy to thrive on that alone as a limited stay-at-home D (who btw also isn't great positionally or in one-on-one puck battles). He surely knows competitiveness is what distinguishes him from other younger players in terms of trust but effectively it's not enough and playing to that alone seems absurdly counterproductive to his development. His somewhat one-dimensional game is surely a byproduct of this environment, though, and along with other younger players struggling is a key argument in favor of an eventual coaching change.

There's not enough composure and relying on efforting isn't likely to lead anywhere. Efficiency and discipline must be king and it requires a more methodical, deliberate approach not so adamant about the value of sheer effort. Skilled efficient execution, even if inconsistent, tends to beat consistent low impact, inefficient effort that lacks refinement. It's here where Lavi has tended to lose teams. Where it grows stale and he lacks answers for how to apply more polish and improve execution. It's here where he may lose this team. Unless MacLellan can manage to pull off something pretty fantastic in the trade market it seems like where this season may be headed. With that potential pivot point in play it would be hard to imagine how they could possibly extend Laviolette and have full confidence in their current direction.

 

[Brian23]

It’s not the point though. If you think the Caps are alone in that, then I’m not sure what to tell you. Mindsets like that have been around the NHL since I started watching it in 1978.

Old school, new school, NO school. Teammates like teammates that have their backs.

Not sure what’s so unique about this instance.

If you have a skilled, top 6 potential, forward who has to start fights to get any opportunity from the Coaching staff there's a problem. I don't understand how you can't get that.

As Hivemind said, there's nothing indicative of CMM treatment being based on his play. He can play great and get benched, Lavi just seems to own a dog house that must be filled.

Like, Mojo has started this year alright but there isn't a world where you can tell me playing Mojo makes more sense then playing CMM. There just isn't. He has zero upside,

 

[Ridley Simon]

If you have a skilled, top 6 potential, forward who has to start fights to get any opportunity from the Coaching staff there's a problem. I don't understand how you can't get that.

As Hivemind said, there's nothing indicative of CMM treatment being based on his play. He can play great and get benched, Lavi just seems to own a dog house that must be filled.

Like, Mojo has started this year alright but there isn't a world where you can tell me playing Mojo makes more sense then playing CMM. There just isn't. He has zero upside,

See, that’s where you lose me. The bolded. It’s complete and utter supposition on your part, that CMM “has to start fights” in order to do anything. Do they want him to play a more complete game and raise his compete along the boards (like Protas has)? Sure. But let’s not take that and then create some “oh, he had to fight to get ice time!!!” narrative.

Well, let me put it this way. Obviously you and others can have that narrative if you want. Free country and all. However to call me obtuse because I’m not buying it, is rather shallow. And not appreciated.

I don’t read Hivemind, he doesn’t read me. Thankfully. Dude is a total PITA and drives me (many of us) nuts.

Hope that all makes sense

PS — if I missed a quote from Lavi or another coach that backs up your mindset, then I will stand 100% corrected. I haven’t seen one.

 

[Brian23]

Do they want him to play a more complete game and raise his compete along the boards (like Protas has)? Sure. But let’s not take that and then create some “oh, he had to fight to get ice time!!!” narrative.

But Protas played exactly 33 seconds longer then CMM with 3 extra shifts, so even the guy you say has played a "more complete game" isn't getting time.

Let's ignore the notion that CMM has any potential and go strictly off of facts. You're down 3 of your top 6. Your top line is currently consisting of guys like Sheary and Snively, neither of which anyone would describe as guys you want to consistently play top line minutes. There is literally not a more tailored period to see what you've got in a former first and third round pick then right now.

Like, I got why for years we rarely graduated anyone. The team was chock full of veterans and good players that the rookies/young pups would need to beat out. But those guys are now hurt. You have to play them sometime or what the hell are we doing?

 

[Ridley Simon]

But Protas played exactly 33 seconds longer then CMM with 3 extra shifts, so even the guy you say has played a "more complete game" isn't getting time.

Let's ignore the notion that CMM has any potential and go strictly off of facts. You're down 3 of your top 6. Your top line is currently consisting of guys like Sheary and Snively, neither of which anyone would describe as guys you want to consistently play top line minutes. There is literally not a more tailored period to see what you've got in a former first and third round pick then right now.

Like, I got why for years we rarely graduated anyone. The team was chock full of veterans and good players that the rookies/young pups would need to beat out. But those guys are now hurt. You have to play them sometime or what the hell are we doing?

I think they will get TOI. We will see. And candidly, I didn’t think that’s what was being discussed. I would like to see more even playing time.

But that’s moving the posts on me man. I was simply talking about “fighting = more playing time”

 

[Brian23]

I think they will get TOI. We will see. And candidly, I didn’t think that’s what was being discussed. I would like to see more even playing time.

You're right, it wasn't, but the picture I'm trying to paint is that even the person you've described as doing it the right way is getting shafted. That there is no better opportunity for these guys to get their shot, and they aren't getting it. With that in mind is it that much of a stretch to take that into believing CMC, someone who I think has never fought prior and is definitely not someone anyone would describe as a fighter, then decided to take a fight because he was trying to win fake brownie points with Lavi? Thus he took the fight to keep a spot in the lineup?

If nothing else isn't working, throwing whatever shit you can at the wall is normally the next step.

 

[Ovechkins Wodka]

Connor McMichael should probably work on his penalty killing if he wants more ice time especially in these games were the refs take over

 

[g00n]

You're right, it wasn't, but the picture I'm trying to paint is that even the person you've described as doing it the right way is getting shafted. That there is no better opportunity for these guys to get their shot, and they aren't getting it. With that in mind is it that much of a stretch to take that into believing CMC, someone who I think has never fought prior and is definitely not someone anyone would describe as a fighter, then decided to take a fight because he was trying to win fake brownie points with Lavi? Thus he took the fight to keep a spot in the lineup?

If nothing else isn't working, throwing whatever shit you can at the wall is normally the next step.

Those are the TOI for Protas this season, most recent at the top. The OTT game was a bit of an exception due to all the f***ing penalties, going both ways.

I think we should all hold our bladders unless we believe every game is going to be a parade to the sin bin blowout loss.

Protas is just below Mojo in EV TOI/GP. Is he really getting shafted vs anyone above him on that list?

 

[Brian23]

I think it's a little disingenuous to point to even strength TOI as the decider here. Especially odd when someone like Protas is used as an example, who's been said to be doing all the right things, when they're now missing 2 minutes per game of short handed time with Brown being lost.

In general, I think Protas has been good enough, and has at least given off the impression of having enough potential to warrant being above both Johansson and Sheary in EV TOi, so that's an extra minute game of strictly EV time. Let alone any short handed time or power play time. I think his size alone is worth trying time at the bumper spot on the power play if they don't want to keep/use Oshie or Mantha.

I think McMichael should have already been playing, but I'll ignore that and speak strictly on last nights game. He came into the game, his first of the season, on Joe Snively's first of the season. In that instance, Snively being the one to get the top 6 spot and power play time is just unthinkable asset management too me. Again, I believe in CMC's potential (and Protas) so I do have an implicit bias around him, but that is the literal definition of a game where you need to throw your youngsters out there and just tell them to run.

You're down 3 top 6 forwards on the year, one of the your only 2 truly dynamic players is hurt/suspended, and it's a regular season game. Find out what you've got for Christs sake.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

I'm not sure Fehervary has more upside than Kempny. I was fine giving MF a pass late last season with COVID and the rookie wall but I'm not sure he has the sense to progress beyond a high effort tweener (at least under the current course). He's fast yet its application doesn't accomplish much. He battles yet without more composure on the puck I don't know what it's worth. It's not like he's the biggest or widest guy to thrive on that alone as a limited stay-at-home D (who btw also isn't great positionally or in one-on-one puck battles). He surely knows competitiveness is what distinguishes him from other younger players in terms of trust but effectively it's not enough and playing to that alone seems absurdly counterproductive to his development. His somewhat one-dimensional game is surely a byproduct of this environment, though, and along with other younger players struggling is a key argument in favor of an eventual coaching change.

There's not enough composure and relying on efforting isn't likely to lead anywhere. Efficiency and discipline must be king and it requires a more methodical, deliberate approach not so adamant about the value of sheer effort. Skilled efficient execution, even if inconsistent, tends to beat consistent low impact, inefficient effort that lacks refinement. It's here where Lavi has tended to lose teams. Where it grows stale and he lacks answers for how to apply more polish and improve execution. It's here where he may lose this team. Unless MacLellan can manage to pull off something pretty fantastic in the trade market it seems like where this season may be headed. With that potential pivot point in play it would be hard to imagine how they could possibly extend Laviolette and have full confidence in their current direction.

Fever isn’t a journeyman…Kempny was/is….end of that nonsense.

Dude has a whole 90 games of experience. When did it become fashionable to expect all young D to get it at the NHL level near immediately?

He also has a high dollar partner who has been mentally out to lunch for a few seasons….

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

If you have a skilled, top 6 potential, forward who has to start fights to get any opportunity from the Coaching staff there's a problem. I don't understand how you can't get that.

As Hivemind said, there's nothing indicative of CMM treatment being based on his play. He can play great and get benched, Lavi just seems to own a dog house that must be filled.

Like, Mojo has started this year alright but there isn't a world where you can tell me playing Mojo makes more sense then playing CMM. There just isn't. He has zero upside,

Why assume this was his motive If not to just try and drive home “the coach must go”….idea?

I think that factored exactly NOTHING into CMM‘s decision to get into it at that juncture of the game.

I also think there has been enough in CMM’s NHL resume to support that his treatment is based on the opinion by the staff and management that he has not been full time NHL-ready, not some imaginary doghouse angry fans make up.

MOJO has been better so far….I mean come on….guy outplays another guy, he wins the spot. That’s pro sports.

 

[traparatus]

I'm not sure Fehervary has more upside than Kempny. I was fine giving MF a pass late last season with COVID and the rookie wall but I'm not sure he has the sense to progress beyond a high effort tweener (at least under the current course). He's fast yet its application doesn't accomplish much. He battles yet without more composure on the puck I don't know what it's worth. It's not like he's the biggest or widest guy to thrive on that alone as a limited stay-at-home D (who btw also isn't great positionally or in one-on-one puck battles). He surely knows competitiveness is what distinguishes him from other younger players in terms of trust but effectively it's not enough and playing to that alone seems absurdly counterproductive to his development. His somewhat one-dimensional game is surely a byproduct of this environment, though, and along with other younger players struggling is a key argument in favor of an eventual coaching change.

There's not enough composure and relying on efforting isn't likely to lead anywhere. Efficiency and discipline must be king and it requires a more methodical, deliberate approach not so adamant about the value of sheer effort. Skilled efficient execution, even if inconsistent, tends to beat consistent low impact, inefficient effort that lacks refinement. It's here where Lavi has tended to lose teams. Where it grows stale and he lacks answers for how to apply more polish and improve execution. It's here where he may lose this team. Unless MacLellan can manage to pull off something pretty fantastic in the trade market it seems like where this season may be headed. With that potential pivot point in play it would be hard to imagine how they could possibly extend Laviolette and have full confidence in their current direction.

I'd like to see how Fehervary would do in a purely defensive and shut down role. Eliminate the need for him to make so many decisions. I watched him go up against McDavid in a match up for a game last year and he was great. The game plan was simple - don't let McDavid loose. Fehervary thrived in that scenario.

Feels like Caps are trying to look for something that just isn't there. The guy is not Orlov v2.0. Fehervary can skate very well, is big and can handle big minutes without fading away but he doesn't accomplish a whole lot in those minutes and makes a lot of poor split second decisions.

I'd rather see the coaching stuff make life simple for him. Give him a singular, narrow focus shutdown task. Pair him with TVR because the Carlson is not exactly making life easy on his very inexperienced partner.

 

[g00n]

I think it's a little disingenuous to point to even strength TOI as the decider here. Especially odd when someone like Protas is used as an example, who's been said to be doing all the right things, when they're now missing 2 minutes per game of short handed time with Brown being lost.

In general, I think Protas has been good enough, and has at least given off the impression of having enough potential to warrant being above both Johansson and Sheary in EV TOi, so that's an extra minute game of strictly EV time. Let alone any short handed time or power play time. I think his size alone is worth trying time at the bumper spot on the power play if they don't want to keep/use Oshie or Mantha.

I think McMichael should have already been playing, but I'll ignore that and speak strictly on last nights game. He came into the game, his first of the season, on Joe Snively's first of the season. In that instance, Snively being the one to get the top 6 spot and power play time is just unthinkable asset management too me. Again, I believe in CMC's potential (and Protas) so I do have an implicit bias around him, but that is the literal definition of a game where you need to throw your youngsters out there and just tell them to run.

You're down 3 top 6 forwards on the year, one of the your only 2 truly dynamic players is hurt/suspended, and it's a regular season game. Find out what you've got for Christs sake.

Why is ES TOI "disingenuous"? It's the most even-handed comparison possible when looking at whether Protas was getting "shafted" as you said.

He's not on the PP or PK ....YET....as he only just even earned a f***ing spot out of camp. There are other experienced players in those spots. He's barely over the line for a jersey, as is CMM. So they don't have special teams TOI to compare vs other players.

It's hard to debate these things when everyone on one side is convinced everything about this is unfair and biased.

This entire board has devolved into 24/7 CMM bitching and it's getting really tedious.

Maybe you meant something other than "disingenuous" but that's pretty insulting, hence my less than friendly reply. FWIW.

 

[Langway]

Fever isn’t a journeyman…Kempny was/is….end of that nonsense.

Dude has a whole 90 games of experience. When did it become fashionable to expect all young D to get it at the NHL level near immediately?

He also has a high dollar partner who has been mentally out to lunch for a few seasons….

It doesn't have to happen all at once but you'd like to see the foundations of smarter minute-eating upside and it's not there beyond an eagerness to engage and ability to skate. Take away the energy and focus more on the fundamentals and they're pretty bad. Those fundamentals are increasingly poor and inefficient across the board so he's far from alone. In terms of players stepping up I don't doubt there may be a shortage. WYSIWYG and increasingly it won't get the job done. They've got to tighten up and I'm not sure they're fully capable of it. That danger zone of slipping toward incompetence doesn't seem too far off. It's the natural progression of tempting fate and believing a switch can be flipped at will. Eventually pure oomph won't compensate enough for lagging fundamentals. Oops.

Barring a substantial shake-up trade if that dynamic continues I don't know how they don't entertain the idea of changes behind the bench. They only have so many cards to play and a mental/conceptual refresh may realistically be the only move of consequence they can pull off.

 

[Ridley Simon]

You're right, it wasn't, but the picture I'm trying to paint is that even the person you've described as doing it the right way is getting shafted. That there is no better opportunity for these guys to get their shot, and they aren't getting it. With that in mind is it that much of a stretch to take that into believing CMC, someone who I think has never fought prior and is definitely not someone anyone would describe as a fighter, then decided to take a fight because he was trying to win fake brownie points with Lavi? Thus he took the fight to keep a spot in the lineup?

If nothing else isn't working, throwing whatever shit you can at the wall is normally the next step.

One game for Protas isn’t a shaft, is it? His TOI has been where it needed to be save the last game (AND he was skating w bottom 6 mayes, I think).

You mentioned Marge earlier. I’m certainly not a guy trumpeting that Marge needs minutes. I mean please. BUT, he’s been playing a lot better than CMM from what “I have seen” in watching them. So far. Maybe that is what’s happening in practice too.

They WANT TO WIN GAMES. Right now. Not develop players during the games. Marge is a bad example for you, due to this, I think. Eller is a better example, but he’s also playing ok now.

CMM will prob sit with Kuznetsov coming back, as Snively may be the better W.

Im sure people won’t be happy.