Speculation: Caps Roster General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2022-23 Season Part 1: Free Agent Edition

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Hivemind

We're Touched
Oct 8, 2010
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I have no problem questioning anyone's judgment when there are tangible, definitive reasons to. You're speculating, assuming things not in evidence, drawing conclusions based on limited perspective, then insisting that those that choose to form their opinions based on something a bit more concrete from a much broader perspective are weak-minded folks that don't belong on a hockey discussion board to begin with because we're just blindly trusting the experts.

In other words, you'd just rather we appealed more to your authority than theirs. You are the arbiter of proper hockey discussion, after all. ;)

Meanwhile, the only real difference between us on this topic is that you're more willing to make assumptions than I am.
You're taking that specific quote out of context. He was claiming that they know better than we do, specifically when it comes to salary arbitration estimates. Yet, we have proven examples of the Capitals in the past either improperly estimating salary arbitrations, or minimally using their upper-bound estimations as public justifications for their moves when talking to the media. I suspect (or at least hope) it's more of the latter. But it leads to an erosion of trust in the Capitals statements when it comes to NHL salary arbitrations, and it's sad to see some fans just buy the lines from the organization without applying any critical thought to them. We have other contracts to compare them to, and we have the eventual signed contracts in two of these cases to compare them to.
 
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Langway

In den Wolken
Jul 7, 2006
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I guess I’m curious what people expect out of Carlson next postseason should the Caps make it. It’d be one thing if he had 4 disappointing postseasons in a row, but the truth is he’s been far worse than disappointing. He’s been the worst player on the ice for the past 4 postseasons. I think Washington will be lucky to get a serviceable version of Carlson in the postseason, and that the most likely outcome is what we’ve seen the past 4 postseasons. There’s no urgency or intensity to his game and that hurts when time and space are at a premium.

I keep hearing about the risk in trading Carlson, but I think there is significantly more risk in keeping him. There’s also a big opportunity cost in keeping him.
Well, when it comes to the regular season there's the following fact. NHL D to put up 50+ assists pace every season for the past five seasons: John Carlson. That's the list. So, sure, he's cratered in the playoffs but in terms of regular season production be careful what you wish for sacrificing that in some singular pursuit toward better playoff performance. They have to make it there first.

If there was an ideal alternative I could buy the idea. But those types don't become available and they're unlikely to punt and open up themselves for criticism going with an unknown quantity. It's easy to criticize and his playoff performance certainty could be way better. But for better or worse it's overwhelmingly likely they continue to roll with him.
 

Jags

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You're taking that specific quote out of context. He was claiming that they know better than we do, specifically when it comes to salary arbitration estimates. Yet, we have proven examples of the Capitals in the past either improperly estimating salary arbitrations, or minimally using their upper-bound estimations as public justifications for their moves when talking to the media. I suspect (or at least hope) it's more of the latter. But it leads to an erosion of trust in the Capitals statements when it comes to NHL salary arbitrations, and it's sad to see some fans just buy the lines from the organization without applying any critical thought to them. We have other contracts to compare them to, and we have the eventual signed contracts in two of these cases to compare them to.

Fair enough, but you can't carp about a lack of critical thinking while simultaneously ignoring the very simple reasons a team wouldn't want to trade for a guy they have a good chance of getting off the open market in a couple days.

How much critical thinking does it take to cite the trades of Matt Murray in a discussion about a 25-year-old draft bust who wrecks motorbikes, huffs COVID, and still plays a fundamentally unsound game? Murray has, you know, proven himself a worthwhile NHL starter. Samsonov's biggest accomplishment in the league so far is getting off the bus without falling down.

You keep focusing on their "fear" or arbitration, completely skipping over the fact that Samsonov's camp pretty much had them over a barrel. By the time arbitration is over, the teams most in need of keepers will have made their moves. And in the meantime, no team would or should want him badly enough to trade for him with so many other options on the open market.

During the season, yes, it seemed like maybe there was a chance to trade him, but our GM did what most would have done with a puncher's chance in the playoffs -- keep your goaltender depth in case you need it, even if it's just insurance, and pass up the probably-not-very-good trade offer.

His value in free agency is completely different. And again, any GM -- even those playing checkers instead of chess -- could see that the Caps wouldn't be able to move a guy with a brutal NHL pedigree and would much rather gamble on the better-than-decent chance he'd end up UFA than give up any meaningful assets for a guy that played for a good team and went sub-90% and 3.00+ in his first season carrying a load. You can get a UFA at league minimum to match that performance.

And you keep bringing up Gustavsson, a trade that was clearly, obviously a cap move. That's not a critical thought, either. Maybe he's not as good, but Samsonov could end up costing three times as much. Is Samsonov three times better? No. Twice as good? Nope. You don't find it odd that you're decrying poor asset management while simultaneously suggesting that Minnesota would be smart to manage their assets poorly?

You make some good points about Mac's history with arbitration, no question. But that has very little bearing, if any, on this situation. Assuming that Samsonov has meaningful trade value is not the best foundation for a good hockey discussion. We know he has talent, but all that matters now -- be it in contract negotiations, trade proposals, or free agency -- is that he has sucked out loud in the NHL.
 

trick9

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Jun 2, 2013
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It took Ed Jovanovski 9 months to return after his resurfacing surgery. Kesler never returned.

Assuming Backstrom takes the same amount of time to return as Jovanovski he'd be back sometime around the middle of March 2023. That's one month before the playoffs, so Kucheroving him seems like the best option. Is the NHL really going to step in and say he needs to return to play Game #79? Seems very unlikely given the nature of the surgery and how rare it is for NHL players to get the surgery. This isn't a torn ACL and MCL with a well-established recovery timeline.

What's the real best case scenario for Backstrom's recovery? Is there any shot he returns in January-February? Seems really doubtful. On the other hand it seems like there is a substantial chance he's played his last game in the NHL. Given these outcomes, how can they justify not spending his money now?
Team chemistry.

You have everyone on the roster pulling for Backstrom to come out on the other side and return. I don't think GM is willing to take it away before Backstrom says that he’s either retiring or doesn't expect to be back before the Playoffs.

Players do talk to each other. I don't think GMBM wants a potential scenario where Backstrom and Ovie are talking in february where NB tells him he’s been ready to play for a while but can't because of the cap. Even if it's an extremely unlikely scenario.
 

SherVaughn30

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Jan 12, 2010
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It's really just the Georgiev comparison that makes it so strange. Last three years:

Georgiev: 40-31-6 with a .905 SV% and a 2.93 GAA
Samsonov: 52-22-8 with a .902 SV% and a 2.81 GAA

Both have seen their numbers decline every year since entering the league. Sammy's a year younger, a couple inches taller, and has 1st round draft pedigree while Georgiev was undrafted. So why was Georgiev worth two 3rds, a 5th, and a 3x3.4M contract while Sammy went unqualified? There has to be something we're missing about the situation, whether it's that they're close to an agreement for a contract below his QO number or he's threatened to go to the KHL if he doesn't get a starting job or whatever. Gotta be more to this.
Where Georgiev doesn't have specifically bad issues, Sammy does with his maturity level(the big mistakes both on and off the ice), mechanics, work ethics in practice, etc. Georgiev had the advantage of goalie coach Allaire(whom is one of the best), while Sammy has been taught by Scott "I stole Mitch Korn's Cup Credit" Murray.
 

Ridley Simon

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Fair enough, but you can't carp about a lack of critical thinking while simultaneously ignoring the very simple reasons a team wouldn't want to trade for a guy they have a good chance of getting off the open market in a couple days.

How much critical thinking does it take to cite the trades of Matt Murray in a discussion about a 25-year-old draft bust who wrecks motorbikes, huffs COVID, and still plays a fundamentally unsound game? Murray has, you know, proven himself a worthwhile NHL starter. Samsonov's biggest accomplishment in the league so far is getting off the bus without falling down.

You keep focusing on their "fear" or arbitration, completely skipping over the fact that Samsonov's camp pretty much had them over a barrel. By the time arbitration is over, the teams most in need of keepers will have made their moves. And in the meantime, no team would or should want him badly enough to trade for him with so many other options on the open market.

During the season, yes, it seemed like maybe there was a chance to trade him, but our GM did what most would have done with a puncher's chance in the playoffs -- keep your goaltender depth in case you need it, even if it's just insurance, and pass up the probably-not-very-good trade offer.

His value in free agency is completely different. And again, any GM -- even those playing checkers instead of chess -- could see that the Caps wouldn't be able to move a guy with a brutal NHL pedigree and would much rather gamble on the better-than-decent chance he'd end up UFA than give up any meaningful assets for a guy that played for a good team and went sub-90% and 3.00+ in his first season carrying a load. You can get a UFA at league minimum to match that performance.

And you keep bringing up Gustavsson, a trade that was clearly, obviously a cap move. That's not a critical thought, either. Maybe he's not as good, but Samsonov could end up costing three times as much. Is Samsonov three times better? No. Twice as good? Nope. You don't find it odd that you're decrying poor asset management while simultaneously suggesting that Minnesota would be smart to manage their assets poorly?

You make some good points about Mac's history with arbitration, no question. But that has very little bearing, if any, on this situation. Assuming that Samsonov has meaningful trade value is not the best foundation for a good hockey discussion. We know he has talent, but all that matters now -- be it in contract negotiations, trade proposals, or free agency -- is that he has sucked out loud in the NHL.
I was confused by your last couple of posts— then I realized you must be arguing w Queen Bee. It’s so much easier to do what he does, and just ignore list each other.

Heck, even Tex finally did it.
 
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g00n

Retired Global Mod
Nov 22, 2007
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And I'm saying it wouldn't be the first time a team has gotten an arbitration estimate wrong, it wouldn't even be the first time GMBM's crew has gotten an arbitration estimate wrong.

Yes, we can pull examples back and forth of previous contracts - because previous contracts are exactly what are used as justification in arbitration cases.

"They know more than we do" is just an appeal to authority. Why discuss anything about hockey and roster decisions? Why discuss how much ice time a player should get, the coaching staff knows more than we do. Why discuss any trades, the GMs know more than we do.

No it's not an appeal to authority IT IS AUTHORITY. It's direct knowledge.

Saying "a surgeon knows more about surgery than I do" isn't a logical fallacy. You don't get to tell the doctor where to cut because you think his expertise isn't absolute.

"People have been wrong before" is more of a logical fallacy than anything else here.

There is essentially NO chance Gmbm's team failed to feel out the market and even discuss value with teams around the league and simply got it massively wrong in a case like this.

Banking your franchise (and your job as GM) on the remote possibility of a calculation error is not smart it's foolish.

If Sammy signs somewhere for $3M+, absent any other urgency pressures like a goalie going down with injury, you may have a point. We won't know until then but for now I'm going with "nobody wanted him at the expected price".

Weird that some people trust themselves to set precise values based on internet "research" but then assume professionals with more direct contact with the situation have no idea.

Pure silliness.

The organization specifically cited the "cost certainty" and fears of arbitration settlement as logic behind dealing Vrana. They never once said he's an asshole

My god, does this REALLY need to be explained to an adult?
 

Monsterrain

Registered User
Mar 4, 2013
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I expect Carlson to make me feel assured as he QB’s the PP, retrieves and keeps Ovi’s misses in the zone, and generally makes smart decisions with the puck on said PP.

Otherwise, I expect a lot of slow, labored skating, and lack of timely defense - all accompanied by terrible body language, and a resting bitch face ;)

Prove me wrong Johnny!
Same here. Good on the pp. horrible everywhere else.
 
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twabby

Registered User
Mar 9, 2010
14,175
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Well, when it comes to the regular season there's the following fact. NHL D to put up 50+ assists pace every season for the past five seasons: John Carlson. That's the list. So, sure, he's cratered in the playoffs but in terms of regular season production be careful what you wish for sacrificing that in some singular pursuit toward better playoff performance. They have to make it there first.

If there was an ideal alternative I could buy the idea. But those types don't become available and they're unlikely to punt and open up themselves for criticism going with an unknown quantity. It's easy to criticize and his playoff performance certainty could be way better. But for better or worse it's overwhelmingly likely they continue to roll with him.

I get it, I really do. He's been very good in the regular season.

I'd counter and say that if the difference between Carlson and a slightly worse replacement (say Brent Burns or John Klingberg) is the difference between playoffs and no playoffs, then the team isn't making any noise in the playoffs regardless (as has been the case the past 4 years). And that's ignoring the short- and long-term good a Carlson trade could do with assets returned to either flesh out the other holes in the roster now, or to restock the pipeline for the future.

They can't win anything with Carlson playing like he has for the past 4 postseasons. I think we can agree on that. But I guess where you and I differ is that I don't see him suddenly having a revelation and turning his game around this year. If their ceiling with him is a first or maybe a second round exit, what's the point in keeping him?
 
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Langway

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Jul 7, 2006
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I think we can agree on that. But I guess where you and I differ is that I don't see him suddenly having a revelation and turning his game around this year. If their ceiling with him is a first or maybe a second round exit, what's the point in keeping him?
To qualify. To help Ovechkin reach 895. I think your last question is looking at it sort of backwards. The question is more: what's the value in moving him? I don't think they're actively looking to make that move so it would need to be something forcing them to consider it. At age 32 who's knocking down that door? It's more of a restructuring move at the earliest if and when they think about it.

I don't know that he'll turn his game around in the playoffs. At his age I would guess he probably won't absent more of a vigorous team-wide turnaround that partially insulates him better. If he hasn't had the stamina more recently it may not be there again. It's fair to question whether he's still got #1D capacity in the playoffs. Is he a horse when the pace elevates? Sure doesn't seem like it. But given all that he does still provide otherwise they're still not going to just throw him aside for a potential lateral move or downgrade. It's not like there's no risk involved either.

The solution has to be insulating him more in the regular season from a usage standpoint to some extent and ideally being able to put together three fairly equal D pairs. They need a LD upgrade one way or another to manage it. And also probably managing to improve his endurance levels. Is it just normal wear and tear that explains it? Some years I think that all it's been but not always. It's been an issue for so long that you wonder if they have the ability to have any real handle on it.
 
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Jags

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And also probably managing to improve his endurance levels. Is it just normal wear and tear that explains it?

In the last 4 years he's #7 in the league in minutes played, and none of the 6 guys ahead of him won any Cups either. He also skates fewer shifts than the other top 20 defensemen on that list, so he's on the ice longer per deployment.

It'd be one thing if he was a stay-at-home type that didn't play in some situations, but he's up and down the ice a lot. I'd guess that he puts more miles on an NHL minute than most of those other 6 dudes, too.

To be clear, I'm just as critical of the guy as any reasonable fan should be, but I do think he carries more weight than just about any Cap and then gets lambasted by fans when he looks (perhaps justifiably) gassed later in the year.

I'm willing to trade him, but we gotta be 100% certain that we replace what he brings to the table, because it's a lot.
 

Hivemind

We're Touched
Oct 8, 2010
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For those who want to just dump Carlson. Do you want this trio to pass ours???

First off - that trio is already going to pass ours with Backstrom's career effectively being over.

Secondly - I'm far more concerned with winning playoff games than some bizarre trio power ranking. Would you have been able to tell me that Thornton, Pavelski, and Vlasic are the winningest trio in NHL history before seeing that graphic? Do you think San Jose fans care about having the top two "trios" on the list?
 

Corby78

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First off - that trio is already going to pass ours with Backstrom's career effectively being over.

Secondly - I'm far more concerned with winning playoff games than some bizarre trio power ranking. Would you have been able to tell me that Thornton, Pavelski, and Vlasic are the winningest trio in NHL history before seeing that graphic? Do you think San Jose fans care about having the top two "trios" on the list?
Of course nobody is seriously worried about this stat. And no, I wouldn’t build a team around it. It was a tongue and cheek comment directed at all the anti-carlson talk lately. He is and has been far more important than people here are giving him.
 
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Ovechkins Wodka

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Dec 1, 2007
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Im done with GMBM. I think we miss the playoffs now and hope his ass is out the door. Of course Ted will keep him another 5 seasons.

Lavi and GMBM both out after this season
 

ClevelandCapsfan

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Anyone worried about retaining Orlov after an admittedly much younger Sergachev reupped with Tampa for an8-year term at $8.5M AAV? Short of trading Carlson or Oshie, I think retaining Orlov may be impossible.
 
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Raikkonen

Dumb guy
Aug 19, 2009
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how do you process that? calling Orlov caps best d and then wanting him to play for peanuts is strange, I'd expect his salary to get closer to Carlson but not exceed it

why worry?
 
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