Speculation: Caps General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2021 Off-Season Pt. 2

[895]

Didn't kzuy test positive for covid immediately after missing the team function? Not more than 2 days elapsed.

That's too fast for covid to manifest. It suggests he got it elsewhere.

 

[g00n]

You missed the word how? Now, HOW would we know that? There's that backpaddling you're so willing to throw out on another, eh?

You realize that changes the entire argument and you never mentioned over the course of multiple replies and pages. Sounds like, to me, you are changing the board, because well, you in fact did get slammed dunked on haha, smh.

Oh, did you need all the other words to know the example of what post you were completely out of touch in? No i indeed read it and all it does is further incriminate your hyperbole of kuznsetsov's covid specifics. I mean there you go again, "kept getting covid, and breaking protocol repeatedly" whats that sample size again? 2?

Speaking of sample size, 3 games is small. Especially when you're trying to single out this one player in comparison to others, who had more games, and were just as lackluster on high dollar contracts, in the top 6. Same goes for 1 in 7 post seasons, are you comparing this to the rest of the top 6? and when you do, is that sample size of kuz being comparatively worse getting smaller? Oh, it is? Okay, well what else do you have to justify your irrevocably strong stance?

I see a reasonable argument both ways in regards to kuz, but it leans much easier in the position of keeping him; unless, there is indeed a lockeroom rift, that we arent privy to right now, that he needs to go. He is a highly skilled CENTER, that was the true CONN SMYTHE winner that has game breaking talent that he still shows, that struggled mightily in the playoffs like most of this team. you can dump him for pennies on the dollar, with no true top 6 center replacement when your franchise forwards in Ovi and Backstrom and truly done.

What part of "fine use some common sense" didn't you understand? Or the rest of what I said, for that matter? Apparently all of it.

Yes, I provided Kuzy's 5v5 playoff stats the last 3 years (Twabby's standard, not mine, when he tried to cherrypick stats) and he sucked compared to the rest of the team. Go back and read if you're the curator of older posts. If we're going to crow about his one great year we also have to remember EVERY guy on that team was great that year, too.

This is not about 3 games so it's ridiculous to try and write this off as a 3 game blip on the screen mitigated by some nonsensical cover story about refs breathing heavily JUST on Kuzy and Sammy.

I mean, you're not this dumb, right? You can't possibly be buying these excuses. Nobody can. It's clearly bullshit. Especially when every other player out there had some kind of knock preventing him from playing at 100%. Regardless of how or why he got COVID again.

Nobody disputes Kuzy's talent and nobody ever has. The problem is clearly between his ears and everyone knows it, including the front office who have talked about Kuzy's production being key, and devastating when missing. And sometimes that's enough to get a guy booted from the team, or turn into a locker room problem (see: Jagr, Ribeiro, Semin to a degree).

Addition by subtraction is on the table because added together with cap hit and possible distraction factor the return from Kuzy when he's been needed most has been insufficient.

 

[g00n]

Didn't kzuy test positive for covid immediately after missing the team function? Not more than 2 days elapsed.

That's too fast for covid to manifest. It suggests he got it elsewhere.

No he was put in protocol soon after. We don't know the timing of testing. You can get put in protocol for suspected exposure.

 

[ThePsychicSaw]

What part of "fine use some common sense" didn't you understand? Or the rest of what I said, for that matter? Apparently all of it.

Yes, I provided Kuzy's 5v5 playoff stats the last 3 years (Twabby's standard, not mine, when he tried to cherrypick stats) and he sucked compared to the rest of the team. Go back and read if you're the curator of older posts. If we're going to crow about his one great year we also have to remember EVERY guy on that team was great that year, too.

This is not about 3 games so it's ridiculous to try and write this off as a 3 game blip on the screen mitigated by some nonsensical cover story about refs breathing heavily JUST on Kuzy and Sammy.

I mean, you're not this dumb, right? You can't possibly be buying these excuses. Nobody can. It's clearly bullshit. Especially when every other player out there had some kind of knock preventing him from playing at 100%. Regardless of how or why he got COVID again.

Nobody disputes Kuzy's talent and nobody ever has. The problem is clearly between his ears and everyone knows it, including the front office who have talked about Kuzy's production being key, and devastating when missing. And sometimes that's enough to get a guy booted from the team, or turn into a locker room problem (see: Jagr, Ribeiro, Semin to a degree).

Addition by subtraction is on the table because added together with cap hit and possible distraction factor the return from Kuzy when he's been needed most has been insufficient.

The fact that you so blatantly were guilty of the very things you criticize and how comical the article you posted was in proving your hyperbolic lack of awareness. Such obliviousness, can, indeed be hard to understand, Donny.

As far as the rest of your post, I already addressed your points individually (not just your "3 games" pin) but you keep going down this route of obfuscation, so I'll take my, evidently, better judgement, and move on.

 

[g00n]

The fact that you so blatantly were guilty of the very things you criticize. and how comical the article you posted was in proving your lack of awareness in hyperbole.

As far as the rest of your post, I already addressed your points individually (not just your "3 games" pin) but you keep going down this route of obfuscation, so I'll take my, evidently, better judgement, and move on.

Ok you're not equipped for this. Probably for the best. Adios.

 

[g00n]

So let's ask this...what has Kuznetsov done to earn any benefit of the doubt regarding his off-ice conduct?

He was in the group that was breaking protocol in Pittsburgh, and who later were disciplined by the league. He got COVID once, then again, and there was some clear consternation about it on the part of the organization. It hurt his team in the playoffs without question, same with Sammy. People just making excuses and arguing "how do we know how he got it" are ignoring the fact that those two were scratched for disciplinary reasons:

Evgeny Kuznetsov and Ilya Samsonov will not play tonight due to disciplinary reasons

Before that there was the cocaine video and all the crap that caused, including a suspension.

He was also banned from IIHF for 4 years for banned substance:

Capitals' Kuznetsov suspended 4 years by IIHF after positive test for illegal substance

He's also made comments about hockey not being a priority, iirc, or something to that effect. I'm sure I'm forgetting some other incidents right now.

What leads people to believe he's just an innocent victim of circumstances instead of his own behavior and attitudes?

 

[ThePsychicSaw]

I don't actually project Kuznetsov having a great year next year, on average. I've stated multiple times that I think he's more likely to have a disappointing season next year than a great one, and that I'd prefer that he be traded for a high-upside 1C with more consistency. Unlike others, I would trade the farm and/or some current high perceived-value roster players for this high-upside 1C because I don't care about the post-Ovechkin Capitals and any futures that the Capitals have now likely won't be key contributors during the period where Ovechkin is still active. And at least in the case of John Carlson there is a better option as a UFA available in Dougie Hamilton. Make Carlson available, for instance, and there are perhaps some more intriguing 1C options available than some of the names you mentioned. Make Carlson, McMichael, and a few first round picks available and maybe the list gets even bigger.

Right now the Capitals are a fringe NHL playoff team in my estimation, with question marks throughout key positions on their roster. I think they need a spectacular performance out of their 1C in order to have success in the playoffs, especially with question marks regarding Backstrom's health and most of the core getting worse due to the effects of aging. Even if they acquire a player that is, on average, a better player than Kuznetsov (and I have no doubts that models are correct in saying players like Hyman, Tatar, Danault, and Krejci are better on average than Kuznetsov) is their ceiling high-enough to make the Capitals a contender? That needs to be the consideration IMO, not whether on average they are better players.

We already know that Kuznetsov is capable of being a Conn Smythe winner, even if the odds are low that he repeats such a performance. But I'd rather take that slim chance of greatness re-emerging than basically no chance at all, as I see with players like Danault, Krejci, Johansen, etc.

I think the main difference between myself and others is that I don't see this team as close right now talent-wise. And the past 3 postseasons seem to support this position. I don't think altering the second pair on defense, or getting a little more buy-in from the team, or acquiring a low-upside 2C, or Laviolette and the players having a full offseason to get on the same page does anything to make this team a contender. They need more talent.

It's why I've advocated for drastic moves to alter the complexion of the core and to have a net-infusion of talent, at the expense of the post-Ovechkin era starting out more painfully. Again, I'd prefer Kuznetsov be gone next season because I want a player with a similarly high ceiling but with much better odds of actually achieving said high-ceiling. But I don't want a replacement center like Krejci, Danault, or Johansen who cannot achieve that level of greatness no matter how hard he tries. I'd rather roll the dice with Kuznetsov than acquire any of those names or similar, especially since Kuznetsov did show significant improvement under Laviolette last year on the ice. It probably was just a blip on the radar but maybe it was actually legitimate improvement that can be built upon next year. Perhaps Kuznetsov just didn't work under Todd Reirden.

Basically, if the Capitals need a home run to win the Cup like I think they do, then I'd rather send out a slugger who may strike out a lot but can sock a dinger rather than send out a contact hitter incapable of going yard, even if the contact hitter has a better on-base percentage.

I disagree, I truly think the talent is there, but above all else, talent was less of the issue and I can't help but feel complacency and a new regime change after a win was more to blame. It melted at that mental game that was built up on a great run under a well respected coach in trotz. Its so hard not to dwell on that for me, I feel like so much of it is mental at this stage of professionalism. On top of that, this sport is just so odd, Montreal has the skill of a borderline playoff team, but whatever those intangible factors were they were able to make it work; and there seems to be a team like that often.

My post is becoming ambiguous though, because it doesnt really disagree with you overall. I would also sell the future for ensuring the best possible skilled team for these last couple years of ovi and backstrom. And although I have always been for dangling Carlson and his inflated value, I just don't see a practical change of that magnitude happening, especially in conjunction with kuznetsov.

 

[ThePsychicSaw]

So let's ask this...what has Kuznetsov done to earn any benefit of the doubt regarding his off-ice conduct?

He was in the group that was breaking protocol in Pittsburgh, and who later were disciplined by the league. He got COVID once, then again, and there was some clear consternation about it on the part of the organization. It hurt his team in the playoffs without question, same with Sammy. People just making excuses and arguing "how do we know how he got it" are ignoring the fact that those two were scratched for disciplinary reasons:

Evgeny Kuznetsov and Ilya Samsonov will not play tonight due to disciplinary reasons

Before that there was the cocaine video and all the crap that caused, including a suspension.

He was also banned from IIHF for 4 years for banned substance:

Capitals' Kuznetsov suspended 4 years by IIHF after positive test for illegal substance

He's also made comments about hockey not being a priority, iirc, or something to that effect. I'm sure I'm forgetting some other incidents right now.

What leads people to believe he's just an innocent victim of circumstances instead of his own behavior and attitudes?

I'm back.

Benefit of the doubt that overall his conduct was not acceptable? None. The argument I would easily make, and I believe swabby was adequately laying out, is that from all we know as fact, this conduct doesn't come close to being reasonably enough to part with a top 6 skilled center, with no practical replacement right now, with your other top6 center coming off just as much lackluster play, your other top6 center coming off a noteworthy injury, your other top6 center being more susceptible to drop off from father time, seemingly no obvious replacements in the UFA market that markedly show enough TALENT upside to actual make a difference with a fleeting contending core, and overall a team vision of WIN NOW for twilight years of 2 hall of fame players.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Been getting dozens of emails about this and I don't care. As you say it's digital art and 2nd of all it's not physical. The collector in me wants something physical. I can't hang NFT up in my basement. So what's the point?

imagine when holo-tech gets easy and cheap for home deployments….then displaying NFT’s might be doable, even neat looking if they get into 3D art….

 

[TheLegendOfPatPeake]

This thread man...

 

[g00n]

I'm back.

Benefit of the doubt that overall his conduct was not acceptable? None. The argument I would easily make, and I believe swabby was adequately laying out, is that from all we know as fact, this conduct doesn't come close to being reasonably enough to part with a top 6 skilled center, with no practical replacement right now, with your other top6 center coming off just as much lackluster play, your other top6 center coming off a noteworthy injury, your other top6 center being more susceptible to drop off from father time, seemingly no obvious replacements in the UFA market that markedly show enough TALENT upside to actual make a difference with a fleeting contending core, and overall a team vision of WIN NOW for twilight years of 2 hall of fame players.

Even if that was Twabby's point, or one of them, that was not the full context iirc. I don't read every one of his many, longwinded posts so maybe I missed it. The context I now recall was his discussion with another poster about Kuzy's COVID, and not holding it against him as a factor in the playoffs because we didn't know how he got it and it was only 3 games.

The point I and others were making was twofold:

1) It doesn't even matter how he got it, you can't lean on excuses this year because his playoff performances have typically sucked (including in relation to his peers, with the reminder that everyone was good in 2018)

2) He's done nothing at all to deserve the benefit of the doubt about how he got COVID and was disciplined by both the league (I think fined first time for violation of distancing, put in protocol 2nd time) and the team (scratched by the Caps as linked above). So it's entirely reasonable, given how every insider has reacted, to suspect there was some stupid behavior behind this, which makes his and Sammy's role in the playoff failure even more egregious.

We don't need to know how he got it the 2nd time right now. We can read the room, and the tea leaves, and it isn't good for Kuzy. You acknowledge he's got no rope left.

Whether or not there's a clear replacement shouldn't enter into it. When you're building a culture you have to weed out the negative influences or they'll poison the entire process. Addition by subtraction as I said. This is surely what the Caps are considering right now as he's been described as a "flake" and a problem that's likely to result in a cap dump.

If you've ever run a business you know you can't allow employees like this to hold you hostage. The Caps haven't cut bait on Kuzy at the first sign of trouble. They've stood by him and tried to help him. If they're giving up you know it's bad.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Umm...you said it in a very confident manner like you heard it or read it somewhere. No prefixes that would point towards it being just your opinion rather than fact of the matter, no nothing. Just "they've said"...like how the hell one says things like that with no real proof really? Yall sure like call people out about not having real evidence of what they say, mocking a so called "eye test" and then go and say stuff like this.

ESL issue for you? He clearly says IF in the OP.

Please though, run with it, like when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor….lol…

 

[twabby]

I disagree, I truly think the talent is there, but above all else, talent was less of the issue and I can't help but feel complacency and a new regime change after a win was more to blame. It melted at that mental game that was built up on a great run under a well respected coach in trotz. Its so hard not to dwell on that for me, I feel like so much of it is mental at this stage of professionalism. On top of that, this sport is just so odd, Montreal has the skill of a borderline playoff team, but whatever those intangible factors were they were able to make it work; and there seems to be a team like that often.

My post is becoming ambiguous though, because it doesnt really disagree with you overall. I would also sell the future for ensuring the best possible skilled team for these last couple years of ovi and backstrom. And although I have always been for dangling Carlson and his inflated value, I just don't see a practical change of that magnitude happening, especially in conjunction with kuznetsov.

I buy that they were probably talented enough in 2019 to repeat but it will be 4 years between their Cup win and the next postseason in 2022. IMO there is a world of difference talent-wise between 32 year old Alex Ovechkin and 36 year old Alex Ovechkin, 30 year old Nicklas Backstrom and 34 year old Nicklas Backstrom, 31 year old TJ Oshie and 35 year old TJ Oshie, 28 year old John Carlson and 32 year old John Carlson, etc.

I’m just not sure the core has it in them to win it all now without a significant talent infusion.

 

[Langway]

As far as those aforementioned players being more favorable, I would imagine that is mostly due to contractual term.

Contracts aren't factored in.

Words.

Realistically then they need to rebuild but are in a win-now trap leading to diminishing returns. Even adding a unicorn 1C in exchange for 92+The Farm is probably not enough by itself. There are too many descending arcs in this story to feasibly bank on a storybook repeat. You'd love to see it but there are hardly any ascending players on this roster. Who's improving year-to-year on any meaningful level? Ilya Samsonov? Anyone else? Literally...anyone...else? Tom Wilson to some extent but not altogether enough. Vrana went sideways (as others have). It's a pretty big issue organizationally for a supposed contender. Forget any declines...that dynamic in itself leads to regression and becoming stale. As does no real track record of selling high on players so as to better replenish the pipeline. The status quo is increasingly not going to cut it. You've advocated being open to some pretty drastic changes and to that I'd mostly agree, even if it's pretty unrealistic at this stage. I think that's mainly where people depart. Not so much the wisdom as the likelihood. I also don't think it's all about top-end talent or offense, even if that's what's vexed them most in the playoffs. It's pretty well everything that needs leveling up. I do think a lack of solid developing youth is a very understated reason why they're fundamentally so stale, though. Not to say just sprinkling in Fehervary & McMichael will solve their woes. It takes special players to pick up the torch and help drive the bus organizationally. I'm not sure either meet that mark but they do need to take more ownership organizationally in turning out players that make that jump. It's beyond time to develop more solutions internally. It requires a mentality change away from just competing more toward development and process. As much as their veterans have been there/done that it never hurts to be more cerebral and deliberate. They need to think in those terms a lot more often and I'm not sure Laviolette is the guy for that. Teams that cut corners rarely pull it off. I think they're just sort of stuck in that greed stage of being sort of close but not really being sure how close or what they're missing. It seems inevitable on this course that they're due for more setbacks unless they're a little more honest and forward-thinking about the process. Realistically I don't think there's any sequence of off-season moves that changes their trajectory. I don't think they have the appetite for it.

I get the logic of trotting out pretty much the same group hoping they click in the absence of higher impact upgrades but eventually they're just going to make a change for the sake of it. They're also probably going to bring in more Laviolette type players and Kuznetsov, much like Vrana, doesn't appear to be that. Best-case maybe they ideally identify those fits and a full camp and more normal season sparks them again. It could happen. I don't think they're too concerned with selling high or low, what fans may think about MacLellan or whatever. They execute what they need to get done to be at their best this coming season. That's basically all they're concerned about.

 

[ThePsychicSaw]

Even if that was Twabby's point, or one of them, that was not the full context iirc. I don't read every one of his many, longwinded posts so maybe I missed it. The context I now recall was his discussion with another poster about Kuzy's COVID, and not holding it against him as a factor in the playoffs because we didn't know how he got it and it was only 3 games.

The point I and others were making was twofold:

1) It doesn't even matter how he got it, you can't lean on excuses this year because his playoff performances have typically sucked (including in relation to his peers, with the reminder that everyone was good in 2018)

2) He's done nothing at all to deserve the benefit of the doubt about how he got COVID and was disciplined by both the league (I think fined first time for violation of distancing, put in protocol 2nd time) and the team (scratched by the Caps as linked above). So it's entirely reasonable, given how every insider has reacted, to suspect there was some stupid behavior behind this, which makes his and Sammy's role in the playoff failure even more egregious.

We don't need to know how he got it the 2nd time right now. We can read the room, and the tea leaves, and it isn't good for Kuzy. You acknowledge he's got no rope left.

Whether or not there's a clear replacement shouldn't enter into it. When you're building a culture you have to weed out the negative influences or they'll poison the entire process. Addition by subtraction as I said. This is surely what the Caps are considering right now as he's been described as a "flake" and a problem that's likely to result in a cap dump.

If you've ever run a business you know you can't allow employees like this to hold you hostage. The Caps haven't cut bait on Kuzy at the first sign of trouble. They've stood by him and tried to help him. If they're giving up you know it's bad.

I don't generally disagree with the specifics of this, but your overall sentiment I completely disagree with.

You cannot reasonable use the TEA LEAVES (with regards to COVID specifics of contraction; for all we know the actual action he took to contract, in and of itself was mundane and hell even justifiably to some degree. The proverbial unprecedented times of covid, with arguably ridiculous "rules" in light of unknown consequences) as reason to make such a drastic change, in light of all the aforementioned points.


Now that we should have that put into perspective, the production. Kuz hasn't been any less productive than Backstrom, especially in the playoffs. I don't know why you seem to think that point is so egregiously true. If anything I could argue kuznetsov has been comparably more product in the playoffs, when realizing he is indeed the reason this team has their only cup. Maybe you should look back at stats? I don't know, but it isn't so clear cut as you keep trying to make it seem.

 

[ThePsychicSaw]

I buy that they were probably talented enough in 2019 to repeat but it will be 4 years between their Cup win and the next postseason in 2022. IMO there is a world of difference talent-wise between 32 year old Alex Ovechkin and 36 year old Alex Ovechkin, 30 year old Nicklas Backstrom and 34 year old Nicklas Backstrom, 31 year old TJ Oshie and 35 year old TJ Oshie, 28 year old John Carlson and 32 year old John Carlson, etc.

I’m just not sure the core has it in them to win it all now without a significant talent infusion.

Man, those ages look awful written out. Stop

 

[ThePsychicSaw]

Contracts aren't factored in.

Realistically then they need to rebuild but are in a win-now trap leading to diminishing returns. Even adding a unicorn 1C in exchange for 92+The Farm is probably not enough by itself. There are too many descending arcs in this story to feasibly bank on a storybook repeat. You'd love to see it but there are hardly any ascending players on this roster. Who's improving year-to-year on any meaningful level? Ilya Samsonov? Anyone else? Literally...anyone...else? Tom Wilson to some extent but not altogether enough. Vrana went sideways (as others have). It's a pretty big issue organizationally for a supposed contender. Forget any declines...that dynamic in itself leads to regression and becoming stale. As does no real track record of selling high on players so as to better replenish the pipeline. The status quo is increasingly not going to cut it. You've advocated being open to some pretty drastic changes and to that I'd mostly agree, even if it's pretty unrealistic at this stage. I think that's mainly where people depart. Not so much the wisdom as the likelihood. I also don't think it's all about top-end talent or offense, even if that's what's vexed them most in the playoffs. It's pretty well everything that needs leveling up. I do think a lack of solid developing youth is a very understated reason why they're fundamentally so stale, though. Not to say just sprinkling in Fehervary & McMichael will solve their woes. It takes special players to pick up the torch and help drive the bus organizationally. I'm not sure either meet that mark but they do need to take more ownership organizationally in turning out players that make that jump. It's beyond time to develop more solutions internally. It requires a mentality change away from just competing more toward development and process. As much as their veterans have been there/done that it never hurts to be more cerebral and deliberate. They need to think in those terms a lot more often and I'm not sure Laviolette is the guy for that. Teams that cut corners rarely pull it off. I think they're just sort of stuck in that greed stage of being sort of close but not really being sure how close or what they're missing. It seems inevitable on this course that they're due for more setbacks unless they're a little more honest and forward-thinking about the process. Realistically I don't think there's any sequence of off-season moves that changes their trajectory. I don't think they have the appetite for it.

I get the logic of trotting out pretty much the same group hoping they click in the absence of higher impact upgrades but eventually they're just going to make a change for the sake of it. They're also probably going to bring in more Laviolette type players and Kuznetsov, much like Vrana, doesn't appear to be that. Best-case maybe they ideally identify those fits and a full camp and more normal season sparks them again. It could happen. I don't think they're too concerned with selling high or low, what fans may think about MacLellan or whatever. They execute what they need to get done to be at their best this coming season. That's basically all they're concerned about.

You miss Oates that bad? haha

Great post

 

[895]

McMichael being a star from the get go is the pretty much the only chance this team has of being a contender.

 

[g00n]

I don't generally disagree with the specifics of this, but your overall sentiment I completely disagree with.

You cannot reasonable use the TEA LEAVES (with regards to COVID specifics of contraction; for all we know the actual action he took to contract, in and of itself was mundane and hell even justifiably to some degree. The proverbial unprecedented times of covid, with arguably ridiculous "rules" in light of unknown consequences) as reason to make such a drastic change, in light of all the aforementioned points.


Now that we should have that put into perspective, the production. Kuz hasn't been any less productive than Backstrom, especially in the playoffs. I don't know why you seem to think that point is so egregiously true. If anything I could argue kuznetsov has been comparably more product in the playoffs, when realizing he is indeed the reason this team has their only cup. Maybe you should look back at stats? I don't know, but it isn't so clear cut as you keep trying to make it seem.

Ah it makes sense now. I guess you completely missed this post:

Speculation: - Caps General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2021 Off-Season Pt. 2

Note that Twabby can't even disagree with this, and had to backpedal, revise, move goalposts, etc. in the post following.

And again, EVERYONE was good in the Cup year. We've already shitcanned a lot of key players from that run. Why is Kuzy exempt?

 

[twabby]

Realistically then they need to rebuild but are in a win-now trap leading to diminishing returns. Even adding a unicorn 1C in exchange for 92+The Farm is probably not enough by itself. There are too many descending arcs in this story to feasibly bank on a storybook repeat. You'd love to see it but there are hardly any ascending players on this roster. Who's improving year-to-year on any meaningful level? Ilya Samsonov? Anyone else? Literally...anyone...else? Tom Wilson to some extent but not altogether enough. Vrana went sideways (as others have). It's a pretty big issue organizationally for a supposed contender. Forget any declines...that dynamic in itself leads to regression and becoming stale. As does no real track record of selling high on players so as to better replenish the pipeline. The status quo is increasingly not going to cut it. You've advocated being open to some pretty drastic changes and to that I'd mostly agree, even if it's pretty unrealistic at this stage. I think that's mainly where people depart. Not so much the wisdom as the likelihood. I also don't think it's all about top-end talent or offense, even if that's what's vexed them most in the playoffs. It's pretty well everything that needs leveling up. I do think a lack of solid developing youth is a very understated reason why they're fundamentally so stale, though. Not to say just sprinkling in Fehervary & McMichael will solve their woes. It takes special players to pick up the torch and help drive the bus organizationally. I'm not sure either meet that mark but they do need to take more ownership organizationally in turning out players that make that jump. It's beyond time to develop more solutions internally. It requires a mentality change away from just competing more toward development and process. As much as their veterans have been there/done that it never hurts to be more cerebral and deliberate. They need to think in those terms a lot more often and I'm not sure Laviolette is the guy for that. Teams that cut corners rarely pull it off. I think they're just sort of stuck in that greed stage of being sort of close but not really being sure how close or what they're missing. It seems inevitable on this course that they're due for more setbacks unless they're a little more honest and forward-thinking about the process. Realistically I don't think there's any sequence of off-season moves that changes their trajectory. I don't think they have the appetite for it.

I get the logic of trotting out pretty much the same group hoping they click in the absence of higher impact upgrades but eventually they're just going to make a change for the sake of it. They're also probably going to bring in more Laviolette type players and Kuznetsov, much like Vrana, doesn't appear to be that. Best-case maybe they ideally identify those fits and a full camp and more normal season sparks them again. It could happen. I don't think they're too concerned with selling high or low, what fans may think about MacLellan or whatever. They execute what they need to get done to be at their best this coming season. That's basically all they're concerned about.

If the only consideration is to maximize the number of Stanley Cups over the long-run then yes I agree, they probably should be looking at a rebuild now.

However out of selfishness I want them to maximize their chances of winning another Cup while Ovechkin is active, along with trying to get him to 895 goals as a secondary goal. This would no doubt hurt them greatly in the post-Ovechkin era because they will need to sell the farm in order to do this. Right now I don't particularly care about what happens post-Ovechkin.

You're right, adding a unicorn 1C and selling the farm probably doesn't elevate them to True Contender status. But it's probably the highest impact move they can make. I think it can take them from their also-ran status into a secondary contender tier, even if on paper they likely cannot be on the same tier as Tampa Bay or Colorado for instance. I think they can at least elevate themselves to the Carolina/NYI tier with a shrewd offseason that includes that impact 1C, along with more depth moves such as re-working the second pair.

I'm under no delusions that the likelihood of the type of bold moves I'm advocating for occurring is low, but I'm not interested in prognosticating. Prognosticating is boring. I'm much more interested in proposing what I'd do and discussing with others what they'd do. I'm more interested in analysis than reading the tea-leaves.

 

[ThePsychicSaw]

Ah it makes sense now. I guess you completely missed this post:

Speculation: - Caps General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2021 Off-Season Pt. 2

Note that Twabby can't even disagree with this, and had to backpedal, revise, move goalposts, etc. in the post following.

And again, EVERYONE was good in the Cup year. We've already shitcanned a lot of key players from that run. Why is Kuzy exempt?

But you went back to the very thing you were criticizing him for, one specific cherry picked stat, however you're hanging that on a flimsy hanger of COVID protocol attitude specifics, behind the scenes, that none of us are privy to. While he was hanging it on a laundry list of other justifications that I re outlined for you. There's a vast chasm of discrepancy in your rationale, comparatively.

As far as defending myself, I simply just pulled up playoff stats last 3 years for Kuz and Backstrom (about even as I expected) and recalled how they've been playing from my eye test. Meh to passable overall, with both coming off of an abysmal Kuz or invisible backy 1st round exit this year.

 

[twabby]

Ah it makes sense now. I guess you completely missed this post:

Speculation: - Caps General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) - 2021 Off-Season Pt. 2

Note that Twabby can't even disagree with this, and had to backpedal, revise, move goalposts, etc. in the post following.

And again, EVERYONE was good in the Cup year. We've already shitcanned a lot of key players from that run. Why is Kuzy exempt?

There's been no backpedaling, or revision, or moving of the goalposts.

His play in the 2021 postseason was poor but can be reasonably be attributed to his recovery from contracting COVID-19 for a second time and having limited practice time between his second stint on the COVID list and his insertion into the lineup in Game 3. This does not invalidate all of his regular season success in 2021. And unless you are privy to the contact-tracing data (which would again be murky at best, given the high-risk activities Kuznetsov performs as a function of being a professional hockey player), it's not reasonable to assume he contracted COVID-19 by attending a masquerade, or going to an underground performance of Shakespeare's As You Like It, or going to a Golden Corral for all-you-can-eat fried chicken on a New York City bender, or whatever else a rich person does in the Big Apple.

Likewise, his success in the regular season of 2021 does not invalidate his regular season and postseason struggles in 2018-19 and 2019-20.

 

[AussieCapsFan]

You were completely out of your element, along with others, in these last 10 pages trying to seemingly, but desperately, catch this poster in a logical mishap. It most definitely was entertaining

A fairly common occurrence around here. I posted last night in support of Twabby but it's "mysteriously" disappeared. What a surprise.

The disrespect that is shown to some people on this board is actually pretty disgusting. It's the same 3 or 4 people who've been holding court here for a long time. When I previously pointed this out I was told to "take a break" and "nobody is forcing you to be here".
Kind of pathetic that a bunch of supposedly intelligent adults would behave this way.

 

[TheLegendOfPatPeake]

A fairly common occurrence around here. I posted last night in support of Twabby but it's "mysteriously" disappeared. What a surprise.

The disrespect that is shown to some people on this board is actually pretty disgusting. It's the same 3 or 4 people who've been holding court here for a long time. When I previously pointed this out I was told to "take a break" and "nobody is forcing you to be here".
Kind of pathetic that a bunch of supposedly intelligent adults would behave this way.

The one thing I wish that would change here is that people could learn to disagree like adults. People love to attack the idea AND the person. Everything becomes oddly personal.

 

[Langway]

Prognosticating is boring.

Many industries would beg to differ!