Cap world - Comparison of Leafs with competitors

[Dekes For Days]

A 'regular season contender' is a team contending for the President's Trophy, as was detailed in the discussion you decided to join.
Some people said regular season determined (playoff) contender status, while others didn't. I picked one side, and you guessed wrong.
There's nothing about how we've performed in the playoffs that would suggest we are a contender for winning the Cup.
And of course you didn't answer my question.

"Regular season contender" is not something that exists, and was not mentioned in the discussion I joined. The objective for every team is the Stanley Cup, not the President's trophy. Contender is a term that describes a high level of team quality, and potential to win the cup. Top 5 teams in the league have demonstrated a high level of team quality, and potential to win the cup. A top 5 team is a contender.

The individual I responded to noted that regular season performance and things that we did throughout the years would be a big determination in contender status, but then simultaneously claimed that the Leafs had "done nothing in 20 years, to ever earn the contender status". I noted the fact that that was contradictory. I never "guessed" what you think about what determines contender status. I was never talking about you in the first place.

An objective evaluation of the team's performance in the regular season and playoffs would classify us as a contender, which is why pretty much everywhere other than a subsection of HFboards considers the Leafs a contender. And of course I did answer your question. You not liking an answer does not make it not an answer.

 

[notDatsyuk]

"Regular season contender" is not something that exists, and was not mentioned in the discussion I joined. The objective for every team is the Stanley Cup, not the President's trophy. Contender is a term that describes a high level of team quality, and potential to win the cup. Top 5 teams in the league have demonstrated a high level of team quality, and potential to win the cup. A top 5 team is a contender.

The individual I responded to noted that regular season performance and things that we did throughout the years would be a big determination in contender status, but then simultaneously claimed that the Leafs had "done nothing in 20 years, to ever earn the contender status". I noted the fact that that was contradictory. I never "guessed" what you think about what determines contender status. I was never talking about you in the first place.

An objective evaluation of the team's performance in the regular season and playoffs would classify us as a contender, which is why pretty much everywhere other than a subsection of HFboards considers the Leafs a contender. And of course I did answer your question. You not liking an answer does not make it not an answer.

The discussion included the difference between regular season (ie, President's Cup) and playoffs (ie, Stanley Cup). Your refusal to acknowledge this doesn't change the fact.

If you specifically respond to my post, then the reasonable assumption is that you are talking about my post. If not, don't quote my post. If you make an incorrect statement about what I said, I have to assume either you guessed incorrectly, or deliberately misread.

Do you really think that an objective evaluation of our playoff performance would classify us as a contender?

And of course you didn't answer my question, but I didn't really except you to.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Dekes is literally saying that we sweep Montreal if Tavares doesn't get hurt.

I'm not a Leafs fan if I disagree with this?

Apparently if you don't agree with absolutely everything Dekes says then you are not a Leafs fan, and deserve to be bludgeoned to death with his illogic.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The discussion included the difference between regular season (ie, President's Cup) and playoffs (ie, Stanley Cup).

The discussion did not include anything about "regular season contenders". That is something that doesn't exist that you attempted to insert into the discussion yourself.

If you specifically respond to my post, then the reasonable assumption is that you are talking about my post. If not, don't quote my post.

You quoted and responded to me while I was having a discussion with another individual. It was clear in everything I said that I was still talking about that discussion. I never indicated that I was discussing your thoughts, and I never even asked for your thoughts. I don't care.

Do you really think that an objective evaluation of our playoff performance would classify us as a contender?

An objective analysis of our team and our performances in both the regular season and playoffs would classify us as a contender. There is more to evaluating a team's potential to win than contextless outcomes of past playoff series. That is why we are consistently classified as contenders by pretty much everybody outside of some people on HFboards.

And of course you didn't answer my question, but I didn't really except you to.

I did answer your question. If you won't accept answers you don't like, then don't ask people questions in the first place.

Apparently if you don't agree with absolutely everything Dekes says then you are not a Leafs fan, and deserve to be bludgeoned to death with his illogic.

My posts have all been logical, and I'm not even the one that made that post in question (which also does not say what the person you responded to claimed), so not sure why you're attempting to misrepresent me.

 

[notDatsyuk]

The discussion did not include anything about "regular season contenders". That is something that doesn't exist that you attempted to insert into the discussion yourself.

You quoted and responded to me while I was having a discussion with another individual. It was clear in everything I said that I was still talking about that discussion. I never indicated that I was discussing your thoughts, and I never even asked for your thoughts. I don't care.

An objective analysis of our team and our performances in both the regular season and playoffs would classify us as a contender. There is more to evaluating a team's potential to win than contextless outcomes of past playoff series. That is why we are consistently classified as contenders by pretty much everybody outside of some people on HFboards.

I did answer your question. If you won't accept answers you don't like, then don't ask people questions in the first place.

My posts have all been logical, and I'm not even the one that made that post in question (which also does not say what the person you responded to claimed), so not sure why you're attempting to misrepresent me.

Wrong on all five! Batting your usual .000.

But there's no point in even trying to reason with you. Bye.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Win and lose with D and G... names Florida as a team with good D... then lists Bruins as a team who has both but also lost.
Colorado just won with AHL level goaltending.

That statement is not true

Colorado had excellent money big game tending in playoffs when it counts (regular season does not matter) and as soon as they lost it last year to UFA they crapped out .. Bruins, Florida and Tampa (when healthy) have superb D cores and tenders

 

[PromisedLand]

Just my opinion, but I believe this will never happen as long as Shanahan is here, and maybe as long as the board is here. Sad if true.

honestly I have no clue what they are even doing. Shanahan seems a bit lost in terms of what he is trying to accomplish. My guess is he bet initially b/c he probably wanted to be known as someone who "changed the face of the game"; of course that bet didn't pan out including the garbage that was the dubas era.

From the board's pov my guess is that as long as they make enough profit they wouldn't care one way or another. I really don't think Rogers/Bell are in it for the championship; they are in it for the money. Given that int rates have sky rocketted, they paid babcock 25 million to sit at home and if profts/salary ratio is going to decline MLSE board may get a bit uncomfortable and start making noise.

I have no idea if revenue/cost ratio for the leafs is any different today than it was in the last 5 years; and what happens when Leafs give ridiculous raises to handful of players; does that translate into higher prices for tickets to compensate those ridiculous contract increases or stupidly priced beer at the games or something else. Since MLSE is not a publicly listed firm it snot easy to read their annual financial reports broken down by Leafs, Raptors, etc...

Given the cost living at the moment, I wonder how many people would find enough money left over to spend on Leafs game/merchandise especially if Shanaplan is nothing but whole lot of stupidity

 

[Dekes For Days]

Colorado had excellent money big game tending in playoffs when it counts (regular season does not matter) and as soon as they lost it last year to UFA they crapped out .. Bruins, Florida and Tampa (when healthy) have superb D cores and tenders

Colorado's goaltending in the playoffs was below league average, and Florida was one of the worst defensive teams in both the regular season and playoffs.

 

[Captain Crunch]

honestly I have no clue what they are even doing. Shanahan seems a bit lost in terms of what he is trying to accomplish. My guess is he bet initially b/c he probably wanted to be known as someone who "changed the face of the game"; of course that bet didn't pan out including the garbage that was the dubas era.

From the board's pov my guess is that as long as they make enough profit they wouldn't care one way or another. I really don't think Rogers/Bell are in it for the championship; they are in it for the money. Given that int rates have sky rocketted, they paid babcock 25 million to sit at home and if profts/salary ratio is going to decline MLSE board may get a bit uncomfortable and start making noise.

I have no idea if revenue/cost ratio for the leafs is any different today than it was in the last 5 years; and what happens when Leafs give ridiculous raises to handful of players; does that translate into higher prices for tickets to compensate those ridiculous contract increases or stupidly priced beer at the games or something else. Since MLSE is not a publicly listed firm it snot easy to read their annual financial reports broken down by Leafs, Raptors, etc...

Given the cost living at the moment, I wonder how many people would find enough money left over to spend on Leafs game/merchandise especially if Shanaplan is nothing but whole lot of stupidity

Great post! I agree 100%!

 

[Captain Crunch]

Colorado's goaltending in the playoffs was below league average, and Florida was one of the worst defensive teams in both the regular season and playoffs.

So what does that say about our Leafs? How much longer will we have to watch this team, led by this vaunted core, not start on time, not show up when it matters the most, never take any responsibility when things don’t go their way (I’ll stop there)?

 

[notbias]

So what does that say about our Leafs? How much longer will we have to watch this team, led by this vaunted core, not start on time, not show up when it matters the most, never take any responsibility when things don’t go their way (I’ll stop there)?

At least one more year. We fired the GM who was willing to change things

 

[Captain Crunch]

"Regular season contender" is not something that exists, and was not mentioned in the discussion I joined. The objective for every team is the Stanley Cup, not the President's trophy. Contender is a term that describes a high level of team quality, and potential to win the cup. Top 5 teams in the league have demonstrated a high level of team quality, and potential to win the cup. A top 5 team is a contender.

The individual I responded to noted that regular season performance and things that we did throughout the years would be a big determination in contender status, but then simultaneously claimed that the Leafs had "done nothing in 20 years, to ever earn the contender status". I noted the fact that that was contradictory. I never "guessed" what you think about what determines contender status. I was never talking about you in the first place.

An objective evaluation of the team's performance in the regular season and playoffs would classify us as a contender, which is why pretty much everywhere other than a subsection of HFboards considers the Leafs a contender. And of course I did answer your question. You not liking an answer does not make it not an answer.

So a contender is any team that makes the playoffs, but continues to wet their pants in the playoffs by continually not getting out of the first round, except this year, only to fail miserably the next round?

 

[notDatsyuk]

So what does that say about our Leafs? How much longer will we have to watch this team, led by this vaunted core, not start on time, not show up when it matters the most, never take any responsibility when things don’t go their way (I’ll stop there)?

Florida held us to a 1.89 GAA. Since they were "one of the worst defensive teams ... in the playoffs", I guess that's more proof that we are a "top 5 contender".

At least according to one poster.

 

[keonsbitterness]

At least one more year. We fired the GM who was willing to change things

Was he really though? In the fall of 2021, Dubas said he investigated the idea of trading a core piece. Whether that meant talking to other GMs or an internal discussion that went nowhere is unknown.

 

[notbias]

Was he really though? In the fall of 2021, Dubas said he investigated the idea of trading a core piece. Whether that meant talking to other GMs or an internal discussion that went nowhere is unknown.

More recently, he discussed how things weren't working and how he would look at changing things.

Fall 2021 is a long time ago.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Was he really though? In the fall of 2021, Dubas said he investigated the idea of trading a core piece. Whether that meant talking to other GMs or an internal discussion that went nowhere is unknown.

Even if he was willing to make changes, do we want him to? The Murray trade was just one of the more recent examples that show he's still really bad at it.

The last thing the team needs is someone who will continue to trade away futures in futile attempts to cover up past mistakes.

 

[keonsbitterness]

More recently, he discussed how things weren't working and how he would look at changing things.

Fall 2021 is a long time ago.

Not really that long. It was also a better time to make such a trade because the three main core pieces had term left and no looming restriction clauses. It's doubtful that a trade last month would have brought as good a return, not to mention that you'd almost certainly need the player's cooperation.

Even if he was willing to make changes, do we want him to?

If you think Dubas is God, yes; Satan, no.

 

[Dekes For Days]

So what does that say about our Leafs? How much longer will we have to watch this team, led by this vaunted core, not start on time, not show up when it matters the most, never take any responsibility when things don’t go their way (I’ll stop there)?

It says that you can win using whatever configuration you want. There is no magic formula to the cup. And that's really not an accurate description of our core.

So a contender is any team that makes the playoffs, but continues to wet their pants in the playoffs by continually not getting out of the first round, except this year, only to fail miserably the next round?

A top 5 team in the league is a contender, even if they don't win the cup.

Florida held us to a 1.89 GAA. Since they were "one of the worst defensive teams ... in the playoffs", I guess that's more proof that we are a "top 5 contender".
At least according to one poster.

Florida's defense didn't hold us to a low GAA. Bobrovsky did on a historic run.
At least according to literally everybody and everything.

 

[Captain Crunch]

It says that you can win using whatever configuration you want. There is no magic formula to the cup. And that's really not an accurate description of our core.

A top 5 team in the league is a contender, even if they don't win the cup.

Florida's defense didn't hold us to a low GAA. Bobrovsky did on a historic run.
At least according to literally everybody and everything.

Except that we can’t with this configuration we have been running for the last oh so many years.

A contender is a team that can win at least a few rounds in the playoffs, something our 3 prima donnas haven’t been able to do (and at times have failed miserably at it)!

Man, that sounds so familiar. This talented trio who seem to more often than not get out-goalied In the playoffs (when they remember to show up, that is). They must deserve a raise on their next contract. smh!

 

[Dekes For Days]

Except that we can’t with this configuration we have been running for the last oh so many years.

Haven't yet =/= can't.

A contender is a team that can win at least a few rounds in the playoffs

A contender is about a lot more than just how many past playoff rounds you happened to win.

This talented trio who seem to more often than not get out-goalied In the playoffs

The talented trio who has run into an objectively hot goalie a few times - all of which have continued on to do the same thing to others.

 

[Captain Crunch]

Haven't yet =/= can't.

A contender is about a lot more than just how many past playoff rounds you happened to win.

The talented trio who has run into an objectively hot goalie a few times - all of which have continued on to do the same thing to others.

You haven’t changed, Dekes. Keep dreaming. As long as this group continues to squeeze every last nickel they can out of this management team, and as long as management gives into them, nothing’s going to change. We’re going to find out if they’re all about winning, or all about padding their bank accounts (again). IF they realize that, in order to be a true Cup contender, they need to leave a little on the table (and that’s a BIG if), then they could do some damage in the playoffs. On the other hand, maybe they are what they are, playoff chokers who can’t deliver when it matters the most.
It’s sure going to be an interesting year!

 

[notDatsyuk]

Not really that long. It was also a better time to make such a trade because the three main core pieces had term left and no looming restriction clauses. It's doubtful that a trade last month would have brought as good a return, not to mention that you'd almost certainly need the player's cooperation.

If you think Dubas is God, yes; Satan, no.

Neither - just not very good.

 

[Racer88]

I totally agree with this.

COVID f'd the Leafs. We got all these star players and they negotiated based on the cap expecting to rise.

But oddly, we are now in the same situation with no COVID on the horizon (that we know of, just like we didn't see that happening in the first place)

All these players signing short deals, or perhaps some holding out because "cap is gonna go up dramatically the next few years"

I don't even have a point btw. It's the middle of summer and we have nothing on Matthews, Marner and Nylander...........other than Nylander wants to get paid big time.

Me? I'd trade Marner.

Interesting that the Leafs were the only team that got screwed so bad with the Covid factor. Just think if Dubas hadn’t picked up JT and paid him so much or had not pains the 3 Amigo’s so much money for so short terms before they even won a single round but ya let’s blame Covid and the flat cap

 

[Racer88]

So if we need to wait until the season is progressing to determine contenders, then that means that you heavily weight what happens throughout the regular season to determine contenders. So by that logic, the Leafs - one of the best teams in the league for the past few years - would have indeed done something to earn contender status.

In a traditional evaluation of what a contender is yes that would be true, but we have the last 7 years of total playoff failure to show us the the regular season is just a mirage. These guys have simply not been able to get anything done in the playoffs .

 

[SmoggyTwinkles]

Interesting that the Leafs were the only team that got screwed so bad with the Covid factor. Just think if Dubas hadn’t picked up JT and paid him so much or had not pains the 3 Amigo’s so much money for so short terms before they even won a single round but ya let’s blame Covid and the flat cap

We had to sign our "star draft picks" right before COVID hit. It was bad luck.

But Dubas NEVER should have let anyone make more than Tavares. That should have been his cut off. Like "I can pay you whatever, as long as it's less than Tavares, veteran captain who signed UFA, you're an RFA"

Marner should have come in under $9 per.

I have no idea what happens next. Do these guys just ask for the moon and walk away? We trade 'em for scraps?

It's a shitty situation. And yeah for real COVID had an impact on the Leafs and these guys. Sure it probably affected other teams too. I never said it didn't.

Now we have the "cap is gonna rise significantly year over year after this one" and these agents will be pushing that.

Someone needs to go and I am just going to keep saying it should be Marner, maybe Nylander too ffs.

Matthews needs to stay at whatever cost IMO.