Cap world - Comparison of Leafs with competitors

[conFABulator]

Personally i like thinking of a group of teams below contender.. not by mich but teams are are expected to be ready to push

I mean contenders i have off the top of my head vegas colorado tampa

Then that next group.. 'prime' .. oilers leafs rangers hurricanes

Something like that.

I can agree with that. I think Tampa might be dropping out of that group. They have lost a lot of pieces and those that remain are starting to show their age.

I think Toronto is one of four or five teams in the east that could make that push, no clear favorite.

 

[andora]

I can agree with that. I think Tampa might be dropping out of that group. They have lost a lot of pieces and those that remain are starting to show their age.

I think Toronto is one of four or five teams in the east that could make that push, no clear favorite.

Yep agreed.. the cups and finals buys them a lot of rope.. and in theory the early exit with injuries buys them rest they havent had in awhile..

But yeah..i think i think of this to keep it a bit more grounded.. i mean i dont realistically think there are 12 contenders but there is a solid pocket of some dangerous teams in my 'prime' category

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I see...so your moving target of an answer is that "teams in need goaltending be to a Tru cup contender" but that Carolina is a contender because "Freddy won't play in the playoffs"? Huh?

You also say that regular season results don't matter and that it is all about playoff success, but when I point out that the Rangers have no more playoff success than the Leafs you say they are much "bigger and faster than the Leafs". It seems sort of arbitrary, no? If size and speed matters so much why has NYR not made playoff noise yet?

I don't think you have done a good job at all of explaining why you consider Carolina and NYR to be contenders and not the Leafs. It seems arbitrary at best. Do you want to take another run at it?

Look I don't really see either Canes or Rangers winning a Cup but i do think they have enough to get to ECF or even Cup final with their SIZE and SPEED .. Canes have best D in league and Rangers have a top 5 tender so they have punchers chances .. we have a weak D and an avg tender

 

[horner]

Editor to the Leafs is sn idiot

 

[conFABulator]

Look I don't really see either Canes or Rangers winning a Cup but i do think they have enough to get to ECF or even Cup final with their SIZE and SPEED .. Canes have best D in league and Rangers have a top 5 tender so they have punchers chances .. we have a weak D and an avg tender

Ok, so you are saying that the teams you identified as cup contenders are not teams you really see winning the cup. Interesting.

Who are the contenders in the east? No teams? I know it's not the Leafs in your mind. Who are they?

 

[Enniskillen]

Leafs stars suck so cap shenanigans don’t matter. The regular season warriors were supposed to deliver and they failed. Simple as that. It took ROR and Knies to get to the second round. Without them, it’s same old game 7 exit.

 

[SmoggyTwinkles]

Did Dubas F us majorly with these huge contracts? Absolutely. Could he forsee Covid happening and the cap not moving for YEARS? Absolutely not. It was bad timing on these deals to start right before the pandemic hit and of we are being honest these contracts not only wouldnt have looked bad but most likely would have been looking very good about 2yrs in had things happened the way they always did. So many deals that people compare our stars contracts to started just before or just after ours were signed. Which, again, was at the worst possible time. Now they are expiring when the cap is expected to rise again, wuddya know? We just got majorly unlucky imo here and feels more like part of our "curse" than anything tbh. Dubas was an occasional dumbass, but I dont blame the pandemic on him. That being said, man is that Tavares contract looking bad. I wish the league had granted teams a buyout option after all this BS. We'd be in much better shape.

I totally agree with this.

COVID f'd the Leafs. We got all these star players and they negotiated based on the cap expecting to rise.

But oddly, we are now in the same situation with no COVID on the horizon (that we know of, just like we didn't see that happening in the first place)

All these players signing short deals, or perhaps some holding out because "cap is gonna go up dramatically the next few years"

I don't even have a point btw. It's the middle of summer and we have nothing on Matthews, Marner and Nylander...........other than Nylander wants to get paid big time.

Me? I'd trade Marner.

 

[BLONG7]

Awesome, apart from your arbitrary opinion can you tell me what defines a "cup contender"?

My definition would be a team that is likely to finish in the top 8 regular season, maybe one that is considered a cup favourite by the betting sites every year, one that was THE cup favourite after the first round this past season.

Maybe you could also tell me what makes the Rangers a cup contender and not the Leafs? Carolina? Is it there recent playoff record? Is it Andersen?

Winning a few rounds in the playoffs, helps define a Cup contender............Leafs have won 1 round in 20 seasons in the playoffs...........1 round...
Currently are not even Cap compliant...no one should use Cup Contender in July anyhow....

 

[PromisedLand]

I totally agree with this.

COVID f'd the Leafs. We got all these star players and they negotiated based on the cap expecting to rise.

But oddly, we are now in the same situation with no COVID on the horizon (that we know of, just like we didn't see that happening in the first place)

All these players signing short deals, or perhaps some holding out because "cap is gonna go up dramatically the next few years"

I don't even have a point btw. It's the middle of summer and we have nothing on Matthews, Marner and Nylander...........other than Nylander wants to get paid big time.

Me? I'd trade Marner.

Why do folks not bring up other contracts that were signed by other teams before the pandemic too? Do they not count?

These were all the contracts that were signed by RFAs from Jan 2019 to Feb 2020 (before the pandemic hit). Matthews and Marner contracts stand out like a sore thumb

And these are the RFA contracts signed just a year prior (Jan 2017 to Dec 2018)
Yes McJesus and Eichel got double digit AAV but they also signed for 8 year term ffs

 

[PromisedLand]

What is magic about 5 guys? Seems like an arbitrary number to make a point. How about 8 or 10?

you can have at max 23 man roster of which 20 dress every night

The so called "core" for the Leafs as identified is 5 guys that are making ridiculous AAV already compared to the competitors and it will get even more ridiculous if Leafs bendover to every player's whim.

I think thats all I have to say. We all know in your eyes Marner can do no wrong so lets agree to disagree to begin with; i really do not have the energy or patience to discuss Marner and his cap hit

 

[SmoggyTwinkles]

Why do folks not bring up other contracts that were signed by other teams before the pandemic too? Do they not count?

These were all the contracts that were signed by RFAs from Jan 2019 to Feb 2020 (before the pandemic hit). Matthews and Marner contracts stand out like a sore thumb

View attachment 729552


And these are the RFA contracts signed just a year prior (Jan 2017 to Dec 2018)
Yes McJesus and Eichel got double digit AAV but they also signed for 8 year term ffs
View attachment 729553

Fair enough.

There's a balance there, as far as ragging on a GM.

Dubas bent over and liked it.

Leafs fans liked having exciting young players, so we were like "whatever, should be fine"

And then it wasn't.

And now we're in the same situation. Cap is supposed to go way up over the next few years, and our star players want to get paid...............

Something has to give, and we're all waiting to see what gives, right?

I personally would like to shed Marner.

 

[Notsince67]

you can have at max 23 man roster of which 20 dress every night

The so called "core" for the Leafs as identified is 5 guys that are making ridiculous AAV already compared to the competitors and it will get even more ridiculous if Leafs bendover to every player's whim.

I think thats all I have to say. We all know in your eyes Marner can do no wrong so lets agree to disagree to begin with; i really do not have the energy or patience to discuss Marner and his cap hit

But 4 is a magic number that you somehow try to make an intellectual argument about. Sounds more like you have some emotional issues that you need to get control of. Sure doesn't sound remotely like a reasoned position except to someone who is desperately to make a weak point.

 

[PromisedLand]

But 4 is a magic number that you somehow try to make an intellectual argument about. Sounds more like you have some emotional issues that you need to get control of. Sure doesn't sound remotely like a reasoned position except to someone who is desperately to make a weak point.

More power to you Dr. Phill

 

[TheGreenTBer]

The only leaf with a ridiculous contract is Marner.

Even in hindsight I sign that same deal for Tavares.

Tavares was offered an extra year at 11 million by the islanders and was offered more money by San Jose.

= He actually took the worse of three offers. And he's for some reason #$%& on, despite respectable seasons.

Matthews....franchise center, elite goal scorer, paced 47 goals and 88 points playing with Kapanen, Johnsson and Marleau. If he makes it to RFA.. He gets offers from any team with cap space and if they don't have it they would make it for him.

= reasonable deal

You can't be serious.

Like, really?

 

[conFABulator]

Winning a few rounds in the playoffs, helps define a Cup contender............Leafs have won 1 round in 20 seasons in the playoffs...........1 round...
Currently are not even Cap compliant...no one should use Cup Contender in July anyhow....

Great, so who are the contenders in the east then? Everyone is good at telling me that the Leafs are not and why not...but who are the contenders in the east?

 

[BLONG7]

Great, so who are the contenders in the east then? Everyone is good at telling me that the Leafs are not and why not...but who are the contenders in the east?

Again, it's July................
So wait until the season starts, and there will be teams who are considered contenders.......then as the season progresses that list gets updated as the standings reflect it....
Contenders and Pretenders, change as the season goes on.

The Leafs have done nothing in 20 years, to ever earn the contender status.
Just my 2 cents...

 

[Notsince67]

Again, it's July................
So wait until the season starts, and there will be teams who are considered contenders.......then as the season progresses that list gets updated as the standings reflect it....
Contenders and Pretenders, change as the season goes on.

The Leafs have done nothing in 20 years, to ever earn the contender status.
Just my 2 cents...

You get what you pay for I guess. Thanks.

 

[GCK]

Not a Leafs fan but from the outside it’s pretty obvious that signing a 2nd line centre with zero playoff pedigree at 7 x 11M was what killed your cap structure. Everything after that has been trying to work around that mistake.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Again, it's July................
So wait until the season starts, and there will be teams who are considered contenders.......then as the season progresses that list gets updated as the standings reflect it....
Contenders and Pretenders, change as the season goes on.
The Leafs have done nothing in 20 years, to ever earn the contender status.

So if we need to wait until the season is progressing to determine contenders, then that means that you heavily weight what happens throughout the regular season to determine contenders. So by that logic, the Leafs - one of the best teams in the league for the past few years - would have indeed done something to earn contender status.

 

[conFABulator]

Again, it's July................
So wait until the season starts, and there will be teams who are considered contenders.......then as the season progresses that list gets updated as the standings reflect it....
Contenders and Pretenders, change as the season goes on.

The Leafs have done nothing in 20 years, to ever earn the contender status.
Just my 2 cents...

I fully agree with the first part. It's too early to declare who the contenders are, that also makes it too early declare a top team is not a contender. That's what my question was...if we are SURE the Leafs are not a contender then we must be SURE who the contenders are... no one has really answered that question. It feels like this is because all teams have flaws, b it some people like to focus on the Leafs as if they are the only one that has flaws that prevent them from being a contender.

Last 20 years? What? That's a long lens...I don't know what anything longer than five years ago has to do with this discussion. If we focus on the past five or seven years I personally think the Leafs are one of five contenders in the East.

Tampa is getting older and their roster is being slowly dismantled by cap pressure.

Boston seemed to go all in last year and it is hard to argue they haven't taken a significant step back.

Carolina is a good team in the regular season and divisional playoff matchups. They haven't beat an Atlantic playoff in years and haven't one a single game in the conference finals in years also. They seem to have playoff demons too.

NYR? What have they shown more than the Leafs?

Florida? Maybe. If Pittsburgh beats Chicago in the last game of the season last year the Panthers don't even make the playoffs.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Ok, so you are saying that the teams you identified as cup contenders are not teams you really see winning the cup. Interesting.

Who are the contenders in the east? No teams? I know it's not the Leafs in your mind. Who are they?

Tampa, Florida and maybe Boston if they resign their C's for another year

 

[conFABulator]

Tampa, Florida and maybe Boston if they resign their C's for another year

Ok, thanks.

I think Tampa, who got knocked out in the first round by the Leafs last year got older (in key areas) and weaker (due to cap constraints). They have the pedigree for sure, so I wouldn't say they are NOT a contender. I struggle to know why they are and the Leafs are NOT given the Leafs best them in the most recent playoff series.

Florida? Yes, they went to the cup. If Bobrovsky repeats his playoff performance from the first three rounds then yes, they could be considered a contender. However, they appear weaker than last year and of Bobrovsky is the same goalie of the part three years they might be in danger of missing the playoffs...just as they were last year. If Pittsburgh beat Chicago on the last day of the season Florida is out.

Boston? That's a pretty big caveat. They had both Bergeron and Krejci last year and couldn't get out of the first round. Those guys MIGHT come back, they will certainly be older and almost assuredly less effective and productive. They also lost a lot of other parts. The Leafs went further than they did last year.

...so, you listed three teams that have question marks. The Leafs have question marks too. This does not make a compelling case that these three are contenders and the Leafs are not. Interesting that you don't consider Carolina to be a contender.

You are however entitled to your opinion of course and thank you for sharing it. I just don't fully agree.


.

 

[notDatsyuk]

So if we need to wait until the season is progressing to determine contenders, then that means that you heavily weight what happens throughout the regular season to determine contenders. So by that logic, the Leafs - one of the best teams in the league for the past few years - would have indeed done something to earn contender status.

It means you have no way of 'knowing' until rosters are reasonably set, and regular season play can adjust opinions.

Considering that the Leafs regular season play has been good but it has not translated into playoff success, indicates contender status has not been earned.

Once we see how the new players affect the team chemistry, in the regular season, we may change our opinions.

 

[Dekes For Days]

It means you have no way of 'knowing' until rosters are reasonably set, and regular season play can adjust opinions.
Considering that the Leafs regular season play has been good but it has not translated into playoff success, indicates contender status has not been earned.

It was being suggested that other teams can earn contender status and have their contender status be heavily impacted by a partial season of play in the regular season, but the Leafs have "done nothing in 20 years, to ever earn the contender status". Quite contradictory.

 

[DuklaNation]

Its even worse when you take the homer glasses off and admit to yourself they were lucky to beat an injured TB in the last playoffs to get their 1st series win in 19 years.

Pathetic.