Confirmed with Link: Canucks sign D Tyler Myers to 5-Year, $30m Deal ($6m AAV)

[Askel]

Overpay for UFA dman and doing nothing is a false dichotomy. Paying Myers Edler money for a lot longer and sit on his hands were not the only two options Benning had available. I shouldn't have to say this.

Exactly, and I still would have preferred to nothing than to overpay a second pairing d-man.

 

[Disappointed EP40]

Admit what?..that LE was a bad signing ..You’re the one writing the BS that I was defending the signing remember..?

If your going to outright lie...and post dishonestly...I’m done answering your posts..see ya.

The lack of reading comprehension is comical. He did none of those things.

 

[Zippgunn]

Wait and see is not a defense.

If he comes out of the gate flying and looks like the second coming of Brian Leech by Christmas I can assure you that his detractors will be chanting "wait and see" non stop...

 

[Bleach Clean]

If he comes out of the gate flying and looks like the second coming of Brian Leech by Christmas I can assure you that his detractors will be chanting "wait and see" non stop...

As they should be because that performance would belie his previous 10+ year performance.

Basically, wait and see is not a defense when you use it to say that Myers might play like he never has before. That’s a hope based analysis. It’s wishful thinking. Not grounded in anything.

On the other hand, a wait and see approach to increase the sample size is the logical course. That’s what you should be doing.

 

[F A N]

Miller is as good as Myers and paid 3,8 million for three years, and is 3 years younger. Yes I would rather pay for him than for Myers, who is a declining asset and not a first pairing d-man.

Like I said, trading for Miller was a popular option here. But like I said, he didn't have a good year last season. I don't fault any team for not trading a 2nd round plus for him.

Buffalo has 8 d-men on NHL deals plus Jokiharju and Pilut, who both are NHL ready. So yes more than they need. Anything else.

So what you're suggesting is to wait for other teams to make all their moves and then try to acquire an expendable Dman from a team like Buffalo? And how do you know they aren't carrying 8 Dmen? The Canucks have been carrying 8 Dmen.

Whats your point about Karlsson and Benn?
My point is don't overpay for players you dont need, getting another no4 rightsize d-man was pointless. Canucks needed a top pairing d-man now Myers and his to expensive contract is in the way of that.

What you said is that you only pay good players and then you bought some other points that contradicted what you said. You brought up paying Karlsson who was never available. What I said was that there is a balance. You don't want to over pay any player but at some point you need players.

 

[MS]

Myers isnt being paid $11.5 M,and he's not even a first pairing defensemen...I wasn't saying that Myers was equal to EK, just stating that a lot of offensive D-men have defensive issues.

You dont like the contract....Which always begs the question..Who would you have signed /traded to improve the Canucks defence this season?

The EK comparison is just absurd. You need to walk away from that one.

The problem starts with your assumption that the Canucks NEEDED to make HUGE IMPROVEMENTS to their blueline THIS SUMMER. Which, of course, was Jim Benning's prerogative when he was desperate to save his job and desperate to make the playoffs. The problem continues with your assumption that Tyler Myers was a HUGE IMPROVEMENT.

I obviously completely disagree. First off, good defenders are hard to find, and you wait for the correct opportunity to move the needle. You don't just shovel $30 million at mediocre players who don't move the needle at all just because 'we had to do something!' and 'who else was there?!?'. You wait for an actual opportunity to improve the team at value that makes sense

Second, what was the problem with the blueline last year?

1) we didn't transition the puck well enough.

2) we played two regulars (Gudbranson and Pouliot) up to the trade deadline who were absolutely horrific defensive liabilities.

The first issue will be substantially addressed with the arrival of Quinn Hughes.

The second issue will be completely addressed with the removal of those two horrible players and create an addition by subtraction situation.

So if I was running this team, I would trust that the biggest issues with the blueline would have resolved themselves internally and have attempted to supplement our depth and retain cap space to allow for a bigger move if/when it presented itself. Benn was a solid signing. There was no reason to dump Hutton. Biega can handle a far bigger role. Schenn was solid for dirt cheap.

And I wouldn't be obsessed with making the playoffs this year, and would be focusing on the bigger picture.

As for moves I would have made - as I said at the time, I would have been all over Nick Jensen at the deadline at both his trade cost and his contract (I would have gone nearly double on the AAV). Even if we didn't make the playoffs. There was a market inequality there and a ridiculous buyer's market and deals like Stone and Jensen were ridiculous steals.

What Benning did is spend $30 million and screw the team over long-term for a guy who is no better than Hutton or Biega.

If Jared McCann is your 2C..you're not going very far.

McCann plays wing now.

The best option available was no signing. That's almost always the best option when it comes UFA signings. Why? Because the contract is often times more important than the player.

The issue with your rationale is that you want an answer that conforms to the context Benning created for himself. This automatically lacks perspective. Think about it this way instead:

1. How many deviations away from a #4 Dman is the money paid to Myers? You say that all UFAs are overpaid, and this is largely true, but this doesn't tell us how much he is overpaid. Once you quantify that he is a top32 paid dman that actually has the performance markers in the top97 to top128 dman range, you will understand just how bad this contract actually is.

2. With perfect distribution, a dman at the 112th rank (split the difference between 96 and 128), should be making 1.74 million~ . That is about 3.5 times less than the 6 million given to the top32 defender. That's the value disparity. Now obviously, perfect distribution is not directly applicable. There is scarcity involved and an altered contract status (UFA). That shouldn't amount to 4m+ AAV though.

3. Next, money is an asset. When you say it costs the team nothing but money, you are actually saying that the money cannot be utilized in a better fashion than it is being utilized here. That's wrong. Money is valuable in the context of cap space. Benning doesn't know this.

4. Many have listed options that would have been preferred. C. Miller, Subban, or even going back and trading for Jensen. There are many things that could have been done. They were not done, and here we are.

5. Benning had to create a playoff team now. Is Myers the difference? I hope you don't think he is? If he's not the difference, then you are looking at a much bigger problem than simply supplementing the defense in 1 offseason.


I would recommend changing the paradigm with which you choose to judge Benning's moves. In isolation, this is a bad contract. That's first. In the context of what Benning has done, it's probably passable with what he has already done -- which is an indictment in of itself.

Yup.

UFA is a fool's game, by and large. There is the odd superstar who is worth paying a premium for, and then there are cheap short-term moneypuck signings. Big contracts to mid-level guys virtually always turn into disasters. It's something good managers don't get caught up in.

Especially for bad teams. As an elite team, you might get guys taking a shave for the opportunity to win, and you may have a single weakness needing fixing. Not so much when you suck. It's always an overpayment, and you can't build teams this way.

It seems like the people who like the Myers signing are looking at it from the perspective of this season alone. No long term view of the looming hell this contract will bring us when the young core is entering their prime

There's no way you can justify a 5/30 million dollar contract for a player of Myers caliber. #1 money to a declining #4 or #5 Dman who is below average defensively and has missed close to 50% of his games over the last 6 seasons. For what? To give us a chance at finishing 7-9 for a year or two before his contract becomes another Eriksson?

It's a move that screams desperation, it comes from the same place that gave us an albatross contract in Eriksson and a terrible deal that landed us Gudbranson.

If you care about this team being better for this season and that's it then this move is great. If you care about this team winning the Stanley Cup then it's indefensible.

Considering Benning supporters consistently show the lack of long term vision, what it takes to win the Stanley Cup, or the want to win the cup over being "entertained" in the short term, it's not surprising they like this move.

MAKING THE PLAYOFFZ! is their Stanley Cup. The future past that is irrelevant. Everything is 100% about making the playoffs this year to justify the 6 years they've spent defending this ignoramus of a GM.

And like you say, the inability to recognize the same failed process at play from Eriksson or Gudbranson in play here with Myers is jaw-dropping.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

The EK comparison is just absurd. You need to walk away from that one.

The problem starts with your assumption that the Canucks NEEDED to make HUGE IMPROVEMENTS to their blueline THIS SUMMER. Which, of course, was Jim Benning's prerogative when he was desperate to save his job and desperate to make the playoffs. The problem continues with your assumption that Tyler Myers was a HUGE IMPROVEMENT.

I obviously completely disagree. First off, good defenders are hard to find, and you wait for the correct opportunity to move the needle. You don't just shovel $30 million at mediocre players who don't move the needle at all just because 'we had to do something!' and 'who else was there?!?'. You wait for an actual opportunity to improve the team at value that makes sense

Second, what was the problem with the blueline last year?

1) we didn't transition the puck well enough.

2) we played two regulars (Gudbranson and Pouliot) up to the trade deadline who were absolutely horrific defensive liabilities.

The first issue will be substantially addressed with the arrival of Quinn Hughes.

The second issue will be completely addressed with the removal of those two horrible players and create an addition by subtraction situation.

So if I was running this team, I would trust that the biggest issues with the blueline would have resolved themselves internally and have attempted to supplement our depth and retain cap space to allow for a bigger move if/when it presented itself. Benn was a solid signing. There was no reason to dump Hutton. Biega can handle a far bigger role. Schenn was solid for dirt cheap.

And I wouldn't be obsessed with making the playoffs this year, and would be focusing on the bigger picture.

As for moves I would have made - as I said at the time, I would have been all over Nick Jensen at the deadline at both his trade cost and his contract (I would have gone nearly double on the AAV). Even if we didn't make the playoffs. There was a market inequality there and a ridiculous buyer's market and deals like Stone and Jensen were ridiculous steals.

What Benning did is spend $30 million and screw the team over long-term for a guy who is no better than Hutton or Biega.




g.

Was I comparing EK and Myers as comparable players.?...I dont think so..Where did I say that?...I made some comments about offensive D-men having defensive issues.

Yes, the Canucks needed to make improvements to their blue line....Did I put my vote as this was a great signing?

You hate the signing..not surprised...and its a good thing your not running the team

Hutton or Biega are comparable to Myers..okey dokey.

 

[Zippgunn]

As they should be because that performance would belie his previous 10+ year performance.

Basically, wait and see is not a defense when you use it to say that Myers might play like he never has before. That’s a hope based analysis. It’s wishful thinking. Not grounded in anything.

On the other hand, a wait and see approach to increase the sample size is the logical course. That’s what you should be doing.

Calling this signing a failure before he has even played one game for us ins't logical at all. I'm willing to wait and see how he does before I call this signing a success or a failure. That's what you should be doing.

 

[MS]

Was I comparing EK and Myers as comparable players.?...I dont think so..Where did I say that?...I made some comments about offensive D-men having defensive issues.

It's like comparing the defensive issues of Reid Boucher and Alex Ovechkin. It's lunacy.

Yes, skill defenders may have defensive issues. But comparing the defensive issues of the 2nd best offensive defender ever next to Bobby Orr to ... Tyler Myers? Nope.

Yes, the Canucks needed to make improvements to their blue line....Did I put my vote as this was a great signing?

And they did make improvements by adding Hughes and replacing Gudbranson and Pouliot with literally anyone.

They did not 'need' to spend $30 million on a mediocre #4-5 defender.

Based on the way you've defended this signing, your vote is pretty obvious.

You hate the signing..not surprised...and its a good thing your not running the team

This has nothing to do with Benning.

I had Myers flagged as a STAY AWAY guy from the moment we starting discussing UFAs back in, like, January. My opinion of Myers has been completely consistent from before he signed here and is completely independent of Jim Benning signing him.

Just because you like moves just because Jim Benning made them doesn't mean that everyone is using who made the move to decide if they like it. I like or don't like moves based on evidence, and I don't like Jim Benning because he makes a lot of moves that are bad based on the evidence.

Hutton or Biega are comparable to Myers..okey dokey.

You've literally said you don't have an opinion on Myers because you haven't watched him play. So you can you be so aghast about a claim about comparable players?

We've been through this before, and other than PP skills nobody can give an explanation for how Tyler Myers is better than Alex Biega. He just is, apparently, because 6'8 and Calder Trophy. Same way that it was ludicrous to call Biega better than Gudbranson just because .... until everyone eventually realized that was kinda right.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Calling this signing a failure before he has even played one game for us ins't logical at all. I'm willing to wait and see how he does before I call this signing a success or a failure. That's what you should be doing.

Have you never seen him play?

Do you know there is at least 5+ years of data suggesting he’s a 4/5 dman?

When you give a 4/5 dman #1 money, that’s a bad contract. I don’t need to see him perform like a #4 dman, as he has done for years, to understand this.

To sum, defining what he is based upon years of data and viewership is completely logical.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

It's like comparing the defensive issues of Reid Boucher and Alex Ovechkin. It's lunacy.

Yes, skill defenders may have defensive issues. But comparing the defensive issues of the 2nd best offensive defender ever next to Bobby Orr to ... Tyler Myers? Nope.



And they did make improvements by adding Hughes and replacing Gudbranson and Pouliot with literally anyone.

They did not 'need' to spend $30 million on a mediocre #4-5 defender.

Based on the way you've defended this signing, your vote is pretty obvious.



This has nothing to do with Benning.

I had Myers flagged as a STAY AWAY guy from the moment we starting discussing UFAs back in, like, January. My opinion of Myers has been completely consistent from before he signed here and is completely independent of Jim Benning signing him.

Just because you like moves just because Jim Benning made them doesn't mean that everyone is using who made the move to decide if they like it. I like or don't like moves based on evidence, and I don't like Jim Benning because he makes a lot of moves that are bad based on the evidence.



You've literally said you don't have an opinion on Myers because you haven't watched him play. So you can you be so aghast about a claim about comparable players?

We've been through this before, and other than PP skills nobody can give an explanation for how Tyler Myers is better than Alex Biega. He just is, apparently, because 6'8 and Calder Trophy. Same way that it was ludicrous to call Biega better than Gudbranson just because .... until everyone eventually realized that was kinda right.

I'm well aware that Myers has defensive issues (well documented)...
Pilots Logbook 2018-19: Tyler Myers

I also had Myers flagged as player to stay away from..Not so much the player, but the impending contract (7x7)...When it came to 6m x 5 ..I could live with it..Not great ,not terrible.

Once again,..I am withholding my opinion on the player until I see him paired with our players (not Kulikov)...and how Green deploys him...Yes, I'm going to wait and see..

I see you're already priming him up as your new 'whipping boy'...now that Granlund is gone.

 

[MS]

I'm well aware that Myers has defensive issues (well documented)...
Pilots Logbook 2018-19: Tyler Myers

I also had Myers flagged as player to stay away from..Not so much the player, but the impending contract (7x7)...When it came to 6m x 5 ..I could live with it..Not great ,not terrible.

Once again,..I am withholding my opinion on the player until I see him paired with our players (not Kulikov)...and how Green deploys him...Yes, I'm going to wait and see..

I see you're already priming him up as your new 'whipping boy'...now that Granlund is gone.

You had him flagged as a player to stay away from on a long-term deal at $7 million, but are defending to the death a long-term deal at $6 million? How on earth does that make sense?

You're using 'Well, this is less than some people thought it would be!' to defend him rather than '30 million for a depth defender still absolutely sucks.

I don't have 'whipping boys'. I criticize players who play poorly or bring poor value to the team. If that changes, I change my opinion (see Edler). Unfortunately, it usually doesn't.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

You had him flagged as a player to stay away from on a long-term deal at $7 million, but are defending to the death a long-term deal at $6 million? How on earth does that make sense?

You're using 'Well, this is less than some people thought it would be!' to defend him rather than '30 million for a depth defender still absolutely sucks.

I don't have 'whipping boys'. I criticize players who play poorly or bring poor value to the team. If that changes, I change my opinion (see Edler). Unfortunately, it usually doesn't.

Because he's 29...not 33...and its a 5 year deal..not 7...

The question is...at what point does he start to deteriorate?....last season was his 4th highest career point totals.

 

[MS]

Because he's 29...not 33...and its a 5 year deal..not 7...

The question is...at what point does he start to deteriorate?....last season was his 4th highest career point totals.

His skating and footwork are already deteriorating considerably, which is why he played the fewest (by far) and softest (by far) minutes of his career last year.

 

[HankNDank]

Have you never seen him play?

Do you know there is at least 5+ years of data suggesting he’s a 4/5 dman?

8+ years of seasons where he has averaged over 20 min/game, 7 of which were 21+, 4 were 22+. Are you saying every coach he has ever had in the NHL, whose sole job is to evaluate talent on their roster and play them accordingly, has had him in the wrong position on their depth chart? Or is it possible he is not a 4/5 defenceman?

 

[Zippgunn]

Have you never seen him play?

Do you know there is at least 5+ years of data suggesting he’s a 4/5 dman?

When you give a 4/5 dman #1 money, that’s a bad contract. I don’t need to see him perform like a #4 dman, as he has done for years, to understand this.

To sum, defining what he is based upon years of data and viewership is completely logical.

What would Myers have to do to make you think this was a good signing?

 

[Pavel96]

What would Myers have to do to make you think this was a good signing?

Consistently play like a top 2 dman.

When was the last time he did that?

 

[Leafsrock95]

bad take

Myers has 265 career pts 81 on the PP
Gardiner has 245. 73 on the PP
Same age. Only 84 extra games played by Myers (1 season)....so basically
One plays a more desirable position
Both have inconsistent defensive games.

Maybe the problem is Gardiner wanted more money and term (than Myers) thinking he was a superior asset and just doesn't have the market of teams interested in a guy with health problems making huge money as a second tier defenseman that plays iffy defense on the left side.

Hence he is still unsigned

LMFAO so Myers played a whole season more and is only up 20 pts. While gardiner scores around 50 a year. Minus Myers rookie year which was just fluke obviously it’s gardener not close. Don’t even try and defend Myers here because if you are your hockey knowledge is literally laughable.

 

[Leafsrock95]

I'm not so sure - for all the criticisms one might have of Myers, he was clearly the best RHD on the market. Stralman is the only competition, but Stralman is already in steep decline. Every year, teams look for top 4 options and top 4 RHD are coveted above LHD due to scarcity. At the contract Myers signed, there were always going to be suitors.

Gardiner is probably a better player, but in a less coveted position. He was looking for a more expensive, longer term contract, and obviously didn't find a dance partner.

Myers been declining since a rookie lol

 

[Bleach Clean]

What would Myers have to do to make you think this was a good signing?

Answered by Pavel96.

I will go one step further though: He has to play like a top2 for the majority of his contract. Fair or unfair?

8+ years of seasons where he has averaged over 20 min/game, 7 of which were 21+, 4 were 22+. Are you saying every coach he has ever had in the NHL, whose sole job is to evaluate talent on their roster and play them accordingly, has had him in the wrong position on their depth chart? Or is it possible he is not a 4/5 defenceman?

So 22 min average TOI/GP is a top2 Dman? I just want to be sure that this is what you are saying before I dive in here.

Edit: Follow up: Are these top2 Dmen?

- Ceci
- Pionk
- Scandella
- Nurse
- Zaitsev
- Hainsey

Thanks in advance for your answers.

 

[Hoghandler]

His skating and footwork are already deteriorating considerably, which is why he played the fewest (by far) and softest (by far) minutes of his career last year.

He played the fewest and softest minutes of his career because the Jets had a pair of top pairing right side defensemen on their depth chart ahead of Myers.. They also kept him away from tough match-ups because he was paired up with absolutely terrible partners all season. The Jets left side was utter trash behind Josh Morrisey - and Myers never got to play with Morrisey.

Myers was an absolute horse for the Jets in the '17-18 playoffs, mere months removed from the '18-19 season. His skating didn't deteriorate in those few months and didn't stop him from being a two-way force against stiff competition when it mattered most.

Play Myers with a decent partner like Edler, Benn or Hughes and he should do just fine. The worst defender in the starting lineup that he will play alongside in Vancouver will be better than the best guy he played with last season.

 

[forty47seven]

His skating and footwork are already deteriorating considerably, which is why he played the fewest (by far) and softest (by far) minutes of his career last year.

His EV minutes were about the same as the year before. He played a minute less on the powerplay. That's the only difference. That has more to do with Morrissey's development than anything. Also, he didn't play the softest minutes, that's BS.

 

[Pavel96]

He played the fewest and softest minutes of his career because the Jets had a pair of top pairing right side defensemen on their depth chart ahead of Myers.. They also kept him away from tough match-ups because he was paired up with absolutely terrible partners all season. The Jets left side was utter trash behind Josh Morrisey - and Myers never got to play with Morrisey.

Myers was an absolute horse for the Jets in the '17-18 playoffs, mere months removed from the '18-19 season. His skating didn't deteriorate in those few months and didn't stop him from being a two-way force against stiff competition when it mattered most.

Play Myers with a decent partner like Edler, Benn or Hughes and he should do just fine. The worst defender in the starting lineup that he will play alongside in Vancouver will be better than the best guy he played with last season.

What about when Morrisey and Byfuglien were both injured and Myers got time on the top pair?

Patrick Johnston: The dangers of the Canucks signing Tyler Myers

"At the beginning of 2018-19, he was playing as Winnipeg’s No. 4 defenceman. By the end, he’d spent a good chunk of it as the No. 2.
The first role, he did alright in. The latter, not so much."

"This past season, though, with Myers on the ice the opposition got more shots at the Jets’ net than the Jets got on the opposition’s. And those shots that the Jets’ opponents got off were far too often in prime scoring areas."

"There was one forward line with whom Myers did have success: the Jets’ third line, which generally featured three of Andrew Copp, Mathieu Perreault, Adam Lowry and Brandon Tanev.
That’s a strong trio, one that consistently took the play to the opposition’s weaker defenders. That meant that Myers, quite simply, didn’t have to play defence as much."

 

[HankNDank]

Answered by Pavel96.

I will go one step further though: He has to play like a top2 for the majority of his contract. Fair or unfair?





So 22 min average TOI/GP is a top2 Dman? I just want to be sure that this is what you are saying before I dive in here.

Edit: Follow up: Are these top2 Dmen?

- Ceci
- Pionk
- Scandella
- Nurse
- Zaitsev
- Hainsey

Thanks in advance for your answers.

How many of those have done it for 8+ seasons?

I'll hang up and listen.

 

[Bleach Clean]

How many of those have done it for 8+ seasons?

I'll hang up and listen.

Some dmen that have averaged 20 min or more TOI/GP since 2012-13 (At a glance):

J. Johnson
F. Beauchemin
Z. Bogosion
Bouwmeester
Ristolainen
Girardi
W. Mitchell
D. Hamhuis
A. McDonald
C. Ceci
J. Gardiner
M. Streit
K. Russel
P. Martin
D. Phaneuf
J. Gorges
D. Kulikov
F. Tyutin
B. Hutton
K. Bieksa
T. Daley
M. Carle

All of them top2 dmen?