- May 3, 2021
- 9,207
- 9,198
Canucks & NHL News, Rumours, and & Fantasy GM | Don’t Incur Vector’s Wrath!
- Thread starter Mr. Canucklehead
- Start date
SopelFanThe3rd
Cock of the Walk
Peter Griffin
Registered User
- Feb 13, 2003
- 35,847
- 8,805
You’d get nothing back for any of those players signing rights.
VanCanucks53
Registered User
I’ve got such a soft spot for Boeser. Class guy as per usual.
Ooof. This just makes me more pissed about the cowardice of those remarks.
Brock is undoubtedly a class guy, but I don't think Alvin's comments were out of line. It's business, and most pros get that.
Bleach Clean
Registered User
- Aug 9, 2006
- 28,187
- 8,270
After Norris was traded for Cozens, I knew they were sunk.
Most people disliked what the team did today. It's because fans expect optimal decision making from managers acting on self-preservation. These two aspects are often incongruent, as we saw with Benning.
To Allvin, it was ideal to move laterally. To deal Boeser, Suter and Forbort for futures and then translate those futures into like assets. That wasn't there for them so they stood pat. But if your sense is that you are not going to get those futures (in advance), you have to re-sign these players before the TDL. If you don't, you've lost your bargaining position and you have to chase FAs (good luck).
This is not about pro sports teams not selling given the Canucks' position. It's about being decisive. Either the deals are likely to be there, or you re-sign the players. No middle ground.
This is why people hate what they did today. It's a culmination of a bad path, followed by bad execution. Where before, the only thing they had over Benning was their execution.
I am toxic
. . . even in small doses
in video game world
In the real world, Alvin's comments were idiotic and - worst of all - counterproductive
He’s playing terribly and if he’s tanked his value you’re killing 3 birds with one stone by a) getting that message to the fans so they understand b) hopefully lighting a fire under a complacent player and c) possibly setting the groundwork for the player to take a lower offer on a new contract.
It was a smart way to put pressure on the player while saying nothing really negative about him as a person or player.
krutovsdonut
eeyore
- Sep 25, 2016
- 18,194
- 11,042
boeser post game dodged the question of whether he may extend soon so artfully he should be an ambassador. some people have grace.
I don't know if it's been said already but the sensitivity of the fans and media in this market amplifies the toxicity and makes it one of the most challenging places to play in the league. It's great that a lot of fans and media are so passionate, but at the same time, most are not very sharp.
What Allvin said about Boeser today is such a nothing burger... everyone is way too soft these days. I don't even want to comment on it too much to compound it. Media loves to take things and spin the narrative to generate controversy and clicks. Fans love to mindlessly eat up these out-of-context narratives without actually taking a deeper dive into the situation.
The fact is the offers didn't meet the price. JR and Allvin have probably been the most active executives ever since they were hired - they are not shy to make moves and have made many moves in their tenure with several teams. If they said that the offers were poor for Boeser, how is that supposed to be him undermining Boeser? The offers might have been poor (relative to their standard) for a variety of reasons - it doesn't necessarily mean ANYTHING about the player itself. A lot of contending teams already have their top six forwards set and don't want to mess with their combinations/powerplay units. Third line/depth players are ALWAYS overvalued at the deadline because they can fit in seamlessly and provide depth - they usually provide utility in other areas of the game: see Schenn, Laughton, Gourde etc.
How many LEGIT top six forwards got traded at this deadline for the purposes of a rental/improving a contender? I count 3 (Rantanen, Nelson, Marchand). I don't count Norris for Cozens because that's just a swap. Rantanen is a superstar forward that every contending team desires - no surprise there. Nelson has been a consistent producer for years and plays center. Marchand's a beast and has playoff experience. Boeser is tiers lower than these forwards then any of these guys from a rental perspective.
Most playoff contenders already have a set top six and probably didn't want to meet the asking price of a (likely) first round pick + prospect to have Boeser playing on a third line and PP2 - that would be a terrible usage of assets.
This doesn't mean that Boeser isn't a good player - but he hasn't been good this year and there was legitimately no market for him. Two top six scoring wingers got traded at the deadline - one was a superstar and the other is a star. Both won Cups and had many great performances in the playoffs.
Last deadline, there were two legit top six wingers that got traded: Toffoli and Guentzel - neither got first round picks back.
If management values Boeser internally higher than the market price that teams were willing to pay - this means that management actually rates him higher than what the market sees. This means the team values Boeser's contributions in the last 20 or so games and the opportunity to sign an extension over a 2nd and a 4th or something of that sort. I saw the comment more of a jab at the other GMs in the league not valuing Boeser the way we do. I would be frustrated too to see Anthony Beauvillier get a 2nd round pick, Luke Schenn get a 2nd and a 4th and not have a team put in a serious offer for Boeser. I genuinely believe that they would have shipped him out if the right offer came along. Boeser was an inherited player that doesn't really possess the traits of the playstyle they desire (fast, north-south etc).
TLDR: Fans and media need to stop being babies. Allvin's comment was a total nothing burger - bro was just trying to lighten up and show some personality for once. Total overreaction by the media and fanbase (once again). Some soft babies here.
If Allvin truly thinks Boeser sucks, why would he offer $8M x 5 years - $40M to someone who's on pace for 55 points this year and has been mostly awful all year? Like wtf? Just a super odd thing for you, or anyone, to be making these completely out-of-line, unthoughtful comments. Someone not meeting their valuation on this player does NOT mean he sucks, nor that no one wanted him. Nobody wanted him at OUR price, which, unless you were in the war room, you would NOT know. Sorry to be blunt but your post is so low-effort and dangerous because it spreads these false narratives amongst the fanbase, and also conditions people to not do their analysis. Not constructive conversation IMO.
What Allvin said about Boeser today is such a nothing burger... everyone is way too soft these days. I don't even want to comment on it too much to compound it. Media loves to take things and spin the narrative to generate controversy and clicks. Fans love to mindlessly eat up these out-of-context narratives without actually taking a deeper dive into the situation.
The fact is the offers didn't meet the price. JR and Allvin have probably been the most active executives ever since they were hired - they are not shy to make moves and have made many moves in their tenure with several teams. If they said that the offers were poor for Boeser, how is that supposed to be him undermining Boeser? The offers might have been poor (relative to their standard) for a variety of reasons - it doesn't necessarily mean ANYTHING about the player itself. A lot of contending teams already have their top six forwards set and don't want to mess with their combinations/powerplay units. Third line/depth players are ALWAYS overvalued at the deadline because they can fit in seamlessly and provide depth - they usually provide utility in other areas of the game: see Schenn, Laughton, Gourde etc.
How many LEGIT top six forwards got traded at this deadline for the purposes of a rental/improving a contender? I count 3 (Rantanen, Nelson, Marchand). I don't count Norris for Cozens because that's just a swap. Rantanen is a superstar forward that every contending team desires - no surprise there. Nelson has been a consistent producer for years and plays center. Marchand's a beast and has playoff experience. Boeser is tiers lower than these forwards then any of these guys from a rental perspective.
Most playoff contenders already have a set top six and probably didn't want to meet the asking price of a (likely) first round pick + prospect to have Boeser playing on a third line and PP2 - that would be a terrible usage of assets.
This doesn't mean that Boeser isn't a good player - but he hasn't been good this year and there was legitimately no market for him. Two top six scoring wingers got traded at the deadline - one was a superstar and the other is a star. Both won Cups and had many great performances in the playoffs.
Last deadline, there were two legit top six wingers that got traded: Toffoli and Guentzel - neither got first round picks back.
If management values Boeser internally higher than the market price that teams were willing to pay - this means that management actually rates him higher than what the market sees. This means the team values Boeser's contributions in the last 20 or so games and the opportunity to sign an extension over a 2nd and a 4th or something of that sort. I saw the comment more of a jab at the other GMs in the league not valuing Boeser the way we do. I would be frustrated too to see Anthony Beauvillier get a 2nd round pick, Luke Schenn get a 2nd and a 4th and not have a team put in a serious offer for Boeser. I genuinely believe that they would have shipped him out if the right offer came along. Boeser was an inherited player that doesn't really possess the traits of the playstyle they desire (fast, north-south etc).
TLDR: Fans and media need to stop being babies. Allvin's comment was a total nothing burger - bro was just trying to lighten up and show some personality for once. Total overreaction by the media and fanbase (once again). Some soft babies here.
That's not remotely anything what Allvin said and it's so tiring to have false/assumed narrative just parroted around and "liked" by everyone on the board. See above for actual deep-dive analysis.
If Allvin truly thinks Boeser sucks, why would he offer $8M x 5 years - $40M to someone who's on pace for 55 points this year and has been mostly awful all year? Like wtf? Just a super odd thing for you, or anyone, to be making these completely out-of-line, unthoughtful comments. Someone not meeting their valuation on this player does NOT mean he sucks, nor that no one wanted him. Nobody wanted him at OUR price, which, unless you were in the war room, you would NOT know. Sorry to be blunt but your post is so low-effort and dangerous because it spreads these false narratives amongst the fanbase, and also conditions people to not do their analysis. Not constructive conversation IMO.
Last edited:
Diablo2020
Registered User
When there is a bidding war for Boeser July 1st and it appears half the league is in fact interested in him and he signs for his 8x7 or whatever I hope not a single fan gives Allvin a pass like they are today.
We're not stupid like they seem to think we are.
We're not stupid like they seem to think we are.
The bias in this post is palpable.
If you dislike management, you're going to view all the events that happened exactly like this instead of objectively looking at the situation.
Can we actually use the term "throwing XYZ under the bus" properly? When has this management group ever thrown him under the bus?
Giving the agent permission to look for a trade because the client was looking for a fresh start is somehow a bad thing? What?
When did we lowball Boeser in contract negotiations? Presenting an offer that got rejected suddenly means it's a lowball? It was reported that we offered $8M x 5 years as a starting offer... where is the lowball? Were you part of the negotiations or something? You know something that nobody knows?
Exploring the market for a pending UFA and not liking the offers and trying to continue negotiations for an extension is somehow bad? Isn't that just them doing their job? Isn't hockey a business? The team should be exploring trades for every single person on the roster regardless who they are - that's part of their job no?
You framed all these things in a negative manner, but everything you said was just the management team doing their job. Like they may have fumbled the Miller/Petey and Boudreau situations but let's be objective here. If Boeser truly wants to stay in Vancouver like he says he does, then he also has to play ball with us. Boeser is -20 and has a 55 point pace this year - his contract asks are absolutely not on par with player performance. Who the hell is paying a 25-30 goal, 55-60 point guy $8M+?
I feel like I'm living in a parallel universe here with all these asinine takes. Put some accountability on the player - it's ok to place accountability on the players... you don't need to baby them. They're professional athletes.
Sorry - I'm failing to see where any of this is supposed to be offensive? Talk about misplaced anger. Yes you're supposed to negotiate (that's how contracts work). Lankinen and MP don't even play the same positions as Brock, signing a goalie and defenseman has no relation to Brock as we still have room to sign him. DOC's total contract value is $5M about ten times less than what Boeser wants. Yes, you're supposed to explore trade values for UFAs. Yes, there weren't any good offers for Brock so he stays to fulfill his contract. That's how contracts and trades work. Yes, they are still interested in an extension and have previously offered an extension as long as Brock is willing to negotiate. Pretty laughable how you think this is supposed to be some dig at management. This scope of work is to explore all avenues to make this team better. No one player is more important than the crest, and if there was, it certainly wouldn't be Brock no offense. Try using a non-biased and nuanced perspective instead of a black and white outlook.
Last edited:
July 1 bidding war doesn't mean jack in relation to the deadline. July 1 - you'll have 15-20 teams looking to make a splash with cap space to spend.
At the deadline, there are only like ten teams that want to buy big. Most of these teams already have their top six forwards set.
Only two top six wingers got traded this deadline (Rantanen and Marchand) - both are several tiers higher than Boeser.
If a team like San Jose wants to give Boeser 8M x 7 years on July 1 - how does that have any relationship with what happened at the deadline? It's not like San Jose would have traded picks for Boeser?
It's crazy how fans can't see the difference. Can we just all use our brains for a second?
Great insight.
Fans don't want to think so they just pounce on the narratives they see on twitter. See guys like Taj, Chester spouting bs and brainwashing a lot of folks. It's easier just to jump to conclusions instead of taking time to think and do a deep dive.
Rantanen and Marchand were the only two legit top six wingers to be traded - both are tiers higher than Boeser.
Bjorkstrand has another year left on his contract at a decent number, so it's not a real comparison to a pure rental like Boeser.
As referenced on 650, somebody said Suter was a tap-in... should have at least gotten a 2nd round pick. But GMs are dinosaurs and they love big, physical, speedy guys for the playoffs - which Suter is none of. Suter is a great player but he's really a middle six tweener... GMs don't really value these guys highly. He also barely has playoff experience, something GMs highly value.
There is still a timeline or path where we can re-sign Suter (Jake Evans deal is a comp) and Boeser (Verhaege as a comp) to reasonable deals and we package Hoglander/Joshua and our first to get a top six forward.
The only young cost controlled centers were traded for each other (Norris/Cozens). The other one (Middlestadt was traded for another upgrade at center in Coyle).
There were no young cost controlled centers available to be traded for the assets we had.
Allvin definitely knew this long time ago, so I don't think he overplayed his hand.
I don't think the management team is really enamored with Boeser as a player. Keep in mind they inherited him and tried to trade him before. You really think that if they got a good offer (first + prospect) they would have turned it down? Nobody's really talking about how awful of a season Boeser is having... that's really derailed his trade value. 18 goals, 38 points and -20 in 55 games. Most of his points are on the PP and mostly awful at even-strength. He's playing more like 22/23 Boeser when we couldn't give him away for free.
One of the real good guys in hockey. And this management group has just jerked him around.
They're cowards. Allvin and JR's apparently anaphylactic allergy to taking any kind of accountability is sickening.
Fans have historically been too soft on players here and too hard on management/ownership. Instead of pointing accountability on the player, they blame everyone else.Exactly.
If Boeser was playing well this year, he probably would have signed an extension months ago. An extension that matches the valuation of the player.
Boeser has been awful all year. We needed him to rise to the occasion and he's been terrible, especially after Miller left.
Yet he's demanding for 6/7 years at $8M+. Spare me all the BS about wanting to stay in Vancouver and wanting to stay loyal. The organization has completely babied Boeser his entire career and has not reaped the rewards outside of one really good year. He was supposed to be one of the faces of the franchise and a top line winger but somehow regressed from his rookie/sophmore campaigns. The last four years - he's been playing mostly as a second line/supplementary player, but now he's demanding a $50-$56M deal and talking about loyalty.
What second line winger is making $8M? Like god damn.
Blaming management when the player has been awful all year and with insane contract demands talking about "accountability".
Pretty ironic stuff (and on brand).
