Canucks News, Rumours, and & Fantasy GM | Playoffs Approaching

[pitseleh]

Edit: A big enough upgrade to warrant taking the older player on a max deal? To me, yes, but it seems that this is not a popular concept here.

I don’t love the idea of having two forwards with questionable defensive histories locked up through their mid-thirties eating ~15-20% of the cap. I think the question comes down to strategy. If they’re pushing their chips in for the next three seasons or so then yes. But even then they’d probably be better served seeing if they can move some futures and recreate something like the Reinhart deal first.

If not, then they may as well ride out the last year of Boeser’s deal if nothing presents itself then reassess in a year.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Still, I'll concede Stone had a better prime. No problem. You've got the win.

Stone basically produces at the same rate as Guentzel, despite not playing with one of the greatest all time players, and is also a selke calibre player. How many more goals and assists with Stone have if he played with Crosby through his prime? The two players are not in the same tier. And this ignores the fact that Stone was acquired at age 26 whereas if Guentzel was acquired by the Canucks this summer he’d play his first game at 30 years of age.

You just need to concede you are wrong and move on.

I posted it again above for your benefit. Or, you can keep reacting to it as if it wasn't posted. Your call.

Do you have any answers whatsoever to the elite winger vs 2 mid-tier players comment (rhetorical, I don't expect an answer))? The original premise.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I don’t love the idea of having two forwards with questionable defensive histories locked up through their mid-thirties eating ~15-20% of the cap. I think the question comes down to strategy. If they’re pushing their chips in for the next three seasons or so then yes. But even then they’d probably be better served seeing if they can move some futures and recreate something like the Reinhart deal first.

If not, then they may as well ride out the last year of Boeser’s deal if nothing presents itself then reassess in a year.

Agreed, if the strategy is short-term, go for it. Get the elite scorer. Little else will upgrade the team as much. If it's long-term, more routes become available.

A Reinhart deal would be great, if they can find it. (I doubt they do by his offseason though)

To me, they're thinking short-term with the Miller contract. Age related regression will hit, and so they have to make hay with him still being a factor. Alternative concern is having to re-sign Demko in 2 years, who himself is 28. Once he does, that money siphons from the skater payroll.

For Boeser, I think they monitor his return in the early part of next season. If he's scoring well enough, and nothing has presented itself otherwise, they'll re-sign him. If not, trade. I don't foresee a situation where they just let him walk for free.

 

[F A N]

Still, I'll concede Stone had a better prime. No problem. You've got the win.

Oh wow. And you concede this despite Guentzel's prime being that of a 40+ goal PPG+ scorer? So what kind of player did you think Stone was/is?

 

[Bleach Clean]

Oh wow. And you concede this despite Guentzel's prime being that of a 40+ goal PPG+ scorer? So what kind of player did you think Stone was/is?

At this point, I don't care? (I was only concerned about both being elite at what they do)

The initial argument wasn't explored until Pits sated my curiosity. That's enough.

 

[lawrence]

I'm honestly super content with the team we have going into the playoffs. Not to mention we didn't mortgage our future.

We still have podkolzin, Lek, willander and Elias petterson. Our top 4 prospects.

We gained Elias lindholm. I’m happy.

 

[Diamonddog01]

Do you know how well Lekkerimaki is going to have to play in the AHL next year for management to have confidence in him to be a top line winger 18 months from now? Like anything short of Stankoven level performance probably rules it out.

Lekkerimaki is a likelier replacement for Mikheyev or Garland when their contracts are up in 2026...if that.

If the team moves on from Boeser you'll see them bring at least one winger in. The reality there are cheap top 6 wingers available every summer in UFA.

A reasonable point of view but I also think that the team engages in succession planning and probably has a good feel for whether Lekkermaki can be a top 6 winger in the future.

I don't really think it's that different than posters pencilling Willander in as Hughes long-term partner in a few years which I pushed back on.

 

[MS]

Has Guentzel had elite results in his current position?

I'll also disagree that Stone is a "vastly" better player than Guentzel (without further qualification from you on what that means), but it's not really the point of the argument. I'm not interested in bad faith semantics lessons.

Guentzel produces at about the same rate as Stone, but has generally had better linemates (Crosby).

Defensively, Guentzel is 'mediocre' or 'passable' at best while Stone is literally the best defensive winger in the NHL.

It's like comparing Tyson Barrie to Drew Doughty. Numbers might be similar, but one guy is on a different level.

 

[arttk]

Guentzel produces at about the same rate as Stone, but has generally had better linemates (Crosby).

Defensively, Guentzel is 'mediocre' or 'passable' at best while Stone is literally the best defensive winger in the NHL.

It's like comparing Tyson Barrie to Drew Doughty. Numbers might be similar, but one guy is on a different level.

That’s a terrible comparison. Defensemen’s main job is to defend and Barrie sucks at that.
A winger’s main job is to score and Guentzel is great at that.

A 40point pp offensive D that cannot defend is a liability. A PPG 30-40 goal scoring winger that plays average defense is a big asset.

 

[MS]

That’s a terrible comparison. Defensemen’s main job is to defend and Barrie sucks at that.
A winger’s main job is to score and Guentzel is great at that.

A 40point pp offensive D that cannot defend is a liability. A PPG 30-40 goal scoring winger that plays average defense is a big asset.

Prime Barrie was a 60-point offensive D who could 'get by' in #4 minutes. And he was paid a hell of a lot of money for it.

Obviously 2024 Barrie isn't a good comparison anymore.

 

[arttk]

Prime Barrie was a 60-point offensive D who could 'get by' in #4 minutes. And he was paid a hell of a lot of money for it.

Obviously 2024 Barrie isn't a good comparison anymore.

I think that Barrie existed for like 1 season, and that’s why the comparison is flawed.
When anyone thinks about Barrie, they think about every season other than that one peak season and that he’s a flawed offensive D that can’t defend.

You are comparing Barrie who cannot meet the #1 responsibility as a D consistently with Guentzel who meets the #1 goal of being a winger consistently. That’s a big big big difference.

 

[Vector]

Still waiting on a Jacob Truscott trade. It could still happen.

 

[theguardianII]

The goal is the cup in the next 2-3 years.

They have 2 more before Demko is up. Passing up Guentzel significantly impairs their chances in this regard. To me, the move is automatic, and the only concern is the AAV.

With that much optimism and faith in an aging player's future, why not target a younger player's future, one with more upside, still improving instead?

Why not a player that isn't 33+ yrs old in 3 yrs being paid 7-9+ million a year? One that hasn't got fat playing on a line/team with one of this generation's one or two best players in the league? And all close to the same age.

If duplication of his types of numbers is desired then follow their pattern. Guentzal is years younger than Crosby and Malkin. Hence a player for EP should be younger as well.

I think a minor change in your statement,
Passing up on a "Guentzal type" player.

But as the entire league now knows Cap Space is THE MOST important aspect of building a winner. That and the cojones to use it.

 

[theguardianII]

boeser is slow, not physical, bad defensively and floats way too often especially at 5v5. his numbers this year are all about a shooting percentage heater for not just him but also miller. he was never as bad as posters here claimed he was last year but he's not nearly as good as those same posters claim this year. he's a guy who can put the puck in the net when he has the right support but he's not contributing anything when he's not scoring

he's not gonna resign for the 4-6m he's probably actually worth so the canucks should be fine with walking away from him after next season. if anyone will give up anything for him in the offseason they should look at it hard

I'm on this band wagon.

His shot power and accuracy has diminished severely. He used to snipe goals from the tops of the FO circles.

A total complimentary player that floats between the dots.

I hope the Canucks do good enough that his trade demand can be met without the rumoured 30% retention and addons of last year's noise about his moving.

I'm worried he would sign for less and some marketing genius would think if is a good idea for ticket sales.

I am still about a player WANTING to be here.
Players that want out should be accommodated.
Last year no teams, NO TEAMS wanted Boeser or Garland without sweeteners. It would have cost the team to agree to their demands/requests.
This year they have improved their value and reduced the remaining term left on their contracts.
IMO Garland is another Myers type contract, the guy can be noticed just about every shift but paid way too much for what the team gets out of him. And he requested that trade again this season. He is playing good enough to be traded off the team now.

If Boeser AND Garland were dealt their cap hits would be used to replace or improve the team. Their departure would not just leave a hole that isn't filled in.
The cap space gives Allvin more flexibility to target areas.
Who knows maybe they trade for Crosby? Take the cap space, take on a bad contract with picks and prospects flip them for Crosby. Something Vegas or Tampa might do. Would it not be a lark if somehow Crosby and Ovy ended up on the same team. Sid feeding Ovy to catch Gretz's goal record. Now that would be a story eh?

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I'm on this band wagon.

His shot power and accuracy has diminished severely. He used to snipe goals from the tops of the FO circles.

A total complimentary player that floats between the dots.

I hope the Canucks do good enough that his trade demand can be met without the rumoured 30% retention and addons of last year's noise about his moving.

I'm worried he would sign for less and some marketing genius would think if is a good idea for ticket sales.

I am still about a player WANTING to be here.
Players that want out should be accommodated.
Last year no teams, NO TEAMS wanted Boeser or Garland without sweeteners. It would have cost the team to agree to their demands/requests.
This year they have improved their value and reduced the remaining term left on their contracts.
IMO Garland is another Myers type contract, the guy can be noticed just about every shift but paid way too much for what the team gets out of him. And he requested that trade again this season. He is playing good enough to be traded off the team now.

If Boeser AND Garland were dealt their cap hits would be used to replace or improve the team. Their departure would not just leave a hole that isn't filled in.
The cap space gives Allvin more flexibility to target areas.
Who knows maybe they trade for Crosby? Take the cap space, take on a bad contract with picks and prospects flip them for Crosby. Something Vegas or Tampa might do. Would it not be a lark if somehow Crosby and Ovy ended up on the same team. Sid feeding Ovy to catch Gretz's goal record. Now that would be a story eh?

Boeser and his agent rescinded his trade request at the end of last season (we've already gone over this. but you still cannot distinguish between facts and fantasy).

Patrick Allvin also welcomed the fact that Boeser was playing on the Canucks this season..All due to Rick Tocchet refocusing Boeser's game.

 

[arttk]

So Athletics has a new article talking about cup chances based on analytics of course.

For those who think Guentzel is not a big add, this is the rating they have for Guentzel.

so a net 14 rating, and this is what their model says about our players.

essentially their models thinks Guentzel would be the 2nd best forward if he were to play for us.


edit: Their model does anger me though, it's a crime that Hughes is rated below f***ing Fox and is rated the same as Evan Bouchard?!

 

[credulous]

So Athletics has a new article talking about cup chances based on analytics of course.

For those who think Guentzel is not a big add, this is the rating they have for Guentzel. View attachment 834613

who doesn't think guentzel is good?

the question is whether he'll be worth signing to a megadeal going into his age 30 season not whether he's a good player right now

 

[arttk]

who doesn't think guentzel is good?

the question is whether he'll be worth signing to a megadeal going into his age 30 season not whether he's a good player right now

I think bad is a given since it’s a UFA contract to a 30 year old winger who’s good but not elite.

I would not consider Guentzel an elite player, YMMV.

 

[ChilliBilly]

who doesn't think guentzel is good?

the question is whether he'll be worth signing to a megadeal going into his age 30 season not whether he's a good player right now

He would be great to have, IF

1 - We can trade off the players other teams don't want.
2 - do we even need him? The last 20 games and the playoffs will tell us a lot.
3 - all that said, it really depends on how many of our players are going to want their payday.

Like virtually every team that has a great season, the owners pocketbook is going to get fleeced.

 

[JT Milker]

@arttk It says I think he’s good in the post you quoted nerd.

 

[arttk]

@arttk It says I think he’s good in the post you quoted nerd.

I think bad is a given since it’s a UFA contract to a 30 year old winger who’s good but not elite.

saying someone is a nerd is not that much as a diss as you think it is boomer

 

[Nick Lang]

What are we? A country club? I doubt any players would be mad if we replaced Boeser with a better player and if they are, we have issues.

As for the player debate Stone is miles better as a player, certainly head to head in their primes.

The problem with doing what you said isn't the upgrade at wing, it's the $2-$3 mil extra in salary we have no hope in hell of creating. I mean let me re-phrase it's not impossible but would take some high level stuff from Allvin to incorporate.

I'm all for it if we can somehow do it reasonably but just swapping the players is only about 20% of the problem.

 

[arttk]

As for the player debate Stone is miles better as a player, certainly head to head in their primes.

The problem with doing what you said isn't the upgrade at wing, it's the $2-$3 mil extra in salary we have no hope in hell of creating. I mean let me re-phrase it's not impossible but would take some high level stuff from Allvin to incorporate.

I'm all for it if we can somehow do it reasonably but just swapping the players is only about 20% of the problem.

I think if we don't sign Lindholm we would be able to make it work. If we extend Lindholm, we will need to trade away Mik, Garland which to be honest shouldn't be that big of an issue...

I think Allvin being one of the most active GMs in the league could probably make it work.

 

[JT Milker]

View attachment 834638View attachment 834639

saying someone is a nerd is not that much as a diss as you think it is boomer

Explain what those numbers mean.

Jake Guentzel is not an elite player, e.g., a Mackinnon, Kucherov, Pastrnak, Draisaitl, or Miller/Pettersson in Canucks terms.

You tried to suggest I didn’t think he was good for whatever reason, which is funny because I think he’s very good and said so in the post you quoted. I would not pay him $9M until he’s 37 years old.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

So Athletics has a new article talking about cup chances based on analytics of course.

For those who think Guentzel is not a big add, this is the rating they have for Guentzel. View attachment 834613
so a net 14 rating, and this is what their model says about our players. View attachment 834614
essentially their models thinks Guentzel would be the 2nd best forward if he were to play for us.


edit: Their model does anger me though, it's a crime that Hughes is rated below f***ing Fox and is rated the same as Evan Bouchard?!

The test will be how his numbers look without Crosby.