Canucks Managerial Thread | Part 19 | Maybe we are in on Tallon, maybe not? *Post #61

[geebaan]

But we have up a guy whose "work ethic and drive to achieve his goals is unparalleled,"

"A tremendously intelligent and passionate offensive player," adds Ross MacLean, head scout for International Scouting Services. "He is strong on the puck, has quick reactions and knows how to score goals. He typically is the player on the ice who pushes the pace of play and forces everyone else to play the game at his speed. He has great hands and is extremely tenacious around the puck. I don’t think I’ve come across a player who loves the sport as much as Shinkaruk and his passion to be on the ice, scoring goals and winning games is unbelievable. He has tremendous potential to be an offensive star at the next level and is the type of player I wouldn’t even count out of being on a full-time NHL roster next year.

"His work ethic and drive to achieve his goals is unparalleled," MacLean continues. "He still needs to work on his defensive play and continue to get stronger. Shinkaruk is at his best when something is on the line and he has the ability to put his team on his back and will them to victory. He has very high ability with tremendous intangibles and a relentless desire to improve, which will take him wherever he wants to go."

Nope, I prefer 2012 scouting reports on Granlund, and ignoring the eye test completely thank you very much.

 

[Catamarca Livin]

Wrong. When you add nothing but garbage players and garbage contracts while shipping out better players for nothing in a 2 year window, you're damn right the team becomes a mess because of that.



Wrong. He inherited a team in a very good position to retool with a bunch of good assets, cap space and excellent veteran group. He completely decimated all of those, made the short-term team significantly worse while gaining zero long-term pieces in the process.

Really they were a team obviously going downhill with only one player hitting his prime Tanev while many losing their abilities. Not having basically anyone in their 20's who is an important player and having one prospect Horvat is not a good place to be in. Players like Lack and Kassian were built up to be something when they are mediocre at best. This team could have kept competing for the playoffs by keeping players like Garrison, Matthias Richardsson etc and not having injuries but it would have been a waste as the core would not be good enough anyways. It is a good thing long term to go with youth. I think Demko McCann Sven Brock Jake Tryamkim, this year's first all have chances to be part of the core along with Hutton and Markstrom who surprisingly came out of the last regime. The turnover has been huge. There was no way of turning the Canucks around to contenders quickly no matter who was gm.

 

[The Optimist]

Stealth tank.

Stealth tank is the biggest indicator that Benning is a terrible GM. Fans have to invent false narratives to justify just how awful his moves have been.

 

[Hit the post]

Really they were a team obviously going downhill with only one player hitting his prime Tanev while many losing their abilities. Not having basically anyone in their 20's who is an important player and having one prospect Horvat is not a good place to be in

Jethro's first two big UFA acquisitions were Miller (33 years old) & Vrbata (32 years old)...

 

[Cupless44]

Jethro's first two big UFA acquisitions were Miller (33 years old) & Vrbata (32 years old)...

You still have to supplement the roster. He took over a weak prospect pool, and what was here wasn't ready. Verbata was a 2 year term, solid signing that produced 31 goal season, which led the team btw.

Not crazy about signing Miller but I understand why Benning felt he needed a veteran. Carolina is one of the known teams to be looking for starting goaltending this summer so that tells you that 3 years later eddie Lack is still not looked at as starting material. Carolina is likely moving on for Ward but is looking for his replacement from outside.

 

[Hit the post]

You still have to supplement the roster. He took over a weak prospect pool, and what was here wasn't ready.

I realize Jethro essentially was brought in with one handcuff on - the thing is, his acquisitions basically put the other handcuff on the other hand (which led this team to it's finish this season).

Just found it interesting to hear about Benning inheriting an aging roster; yet his first two important UFA signings were guys as old if not older than the "core".

Frankly I don't see a "plan"...just stumbling around in the dark.

 

[Ryp37]

You still have to supplement the roster. He took over a weak prospect pool, and what was here wasn't ready. Verbata was a 2 year term, solid signing that produced 31 goal season, which led the team btw.

Not crazy about signing Miller but I understand why Benning felt he needed a veteran. Carolina is one of the known teams to be looking for starting goaltending this summer so that tells you that 3 years later eddie Lack is still not looked at as starting material. Carolina is likely moving on for Ward but is looking for his replacement from outside.

Then what happened?

 

[absolute garbage]

Really they were a team obviously going downhill with only one player hitting his prime Tanev while many losing their abilities. Not having basically anyone in their 20's who is an important player and having one prospect Horvat is not a good place to be in.

What part of "in a very good position to retool" didn't you understand? Yes the core was getting old, yes they needed to inject some young blood, that's obvious given they were gunning for the Cup the past half decade.

Doesn't remove the fact that the team still had good players who were able to perform well, as evidenced by the 100 point season.

But as it turns out, when you systematically strip away the quality and depth in all 3 positions and replace it with overpriced garbage and/or 19yos who should be in juniors and AHLers who should be in the AHL, your team is going to suck. Who would've guessed?

There was no way of turning the Canucks around to contenders quickly no matter who was gm.

Sure. And I don't think anyone has ever argued anything close to that. But it takes a special kind of moron to take a good team with a good core and completely **** all over it, transforming it into a bottom 5 disaster without adding any future pieces either (no, keeping your own draft picks doesn't count in this context).

Like 80% of this board has been parroting this for a year now, yet there are still people who don't get it and instead default to "we weren't going to win the Cup in next few years anyway herpaderpaderp". Unbelievable.

 

[Hit the post]

Then what happened?

Sutter - foundation player - was signed; bumping Vrbata off the Sedin line at the beginning of the season. Bonino - the only other guy he had chemistry with was the person dealt to acquire Sutter.

 

[Ryp37]

Sutter - foundation player - was signed; bumping Vrbata off the Sedin line at the beginning of the season. Bonino - the only other guy he had chemistry with was the person dealt to acquire Sutter.

I was talking more about Benning calling him a perimeter player who doesn't like the puck after the playoffs but for some reason still thinking he would get better value at the next years deadline

 

[Zaddy91]

What part of "in a very good position to retool" didn't you understand? Yes the core was getting old, yes they needed to inject some young blood, that's obvious given they were gunning for the Cup the past half decade.

Doesn't remove the fact that the team still had good players who were able to perform well, as evidenced by the 100 point season.

But as it turns out, when you systematically strip away the quality and depth in all 3 positions and replace it with overpriced garbage and/or 19yos who should be in juniors and AHLers who should be in the AHL, your team is going to suck. Who would've guessed?



Sure. And I don't think anyone has ever argued anything close to that. But it takes a special kind of moron to take a good team with a good core and completely **** all over it, transforming it into a bottom 5 disaster without adding any future pieces either (no, keeping your own draft picks doesn't count in this context).

Like 80% of this board has been parroting this for a year now, yet there are still people who don't get it and instead default to "we weren't going to win the Cup in next few years anyway herpaderpaderp". Unbelievable.

Good core? Nope.

 

[Cupless44]

Then what happened?

Not sure but given that it was a 2 year term, he is gone, and the 5 million is off the books.

 

[CherryToke]

What part of "in a very good position to retool" didn't you understand? Yes the core was getting old, yes they needed to inject some young blood, that's obvious given they were gunning for the Cup the past half decade.

Doesn't remove the fact that the team still had good players who were able to perform well, as evidenced by the 100 point season.

But as it turns out, when you systematically strip away the quality and depth in all 3 positions and replace it with overpriced garbage and/or 19yos who should be in juniors and AHLers who should be in the AHL, your team is going to suck. Who would've guessed?



Sure. And I don't think anyone has ever argued anything close to that. But it takes a special kind of moron to take a good team with a good core and completely **** all over it, transforming it into a bottom 5 disaster without adding any future pieces either (no, keeping your own draft picks doesn't count in this context).

Like 80% of this board has been parroting this for a year now, yet there are still people who don't get it and instead default to "we weren't going to win the Cup in next few years anyway herpaderpaderp". Unbelievable.

good team with a good core? 2011 was 5 years ago.

 

[Ryp37]

good team with a good core? 2011 was 5 years ago.

Most GM's don't walk onto a team with 3 top 40 picks, 5 good D-men including a fantastic shutdown pairing, 2 young goalies, two prospects in Horvat and later Hutton ready to step in, 2 all-star 1st liners and a big trade chip in Kesler

So yeah he had it better than a lot of GM's who get hired. He dug his own grave

 

[thepuckmonster]

Most GM's don't walk onto a team with 3 top 40 picks, 5 good D-men including a fantastic shutdown pairing, 2 young goalies, two prospects in Horvat and later Hutton ready to step in, 2 all-star 1st liners and a big trade chip in Kesler

So yeah he had it better than a lot of GM's who get hired. He dug his own grave

You realize that Benning acquired one of those 3 top 40 picks, yes?

 

[CherryToke]

Most GM's don't walk onto a team with 3 top 40 picks, 5 good D-men including a fantastic shutdown pairing, 2 young goalies, two prospects in Horvat and later Hutton ready to step in, 2 all-star 1st liners and a big trade chip in Kesler

So yeah he had it better than a lot of GM's who get hired. He dug his own grave

The team was coming off a 25th place finish, Luongo was traded for scraps by the previous GM and Kesler demanded a trade to ONE team. Looks like an ugly situation to me.

 

[tyhee]

Then what happened?

Benning traded Vrbata's centre from the previous season, Vrbata wasn't happy with the replacement and ended up having a horrible season, partly the result of not having a good center to put with a sniper such as Vrbata and partly, I'm guessing, from Vrbata's giving up on the season because of it, making things much worse.

But Vrbata's falling off a cliff happened for a reason and that wasn't just that he was a year older or just that he had a bad attitude. He got that attitude from somewhere.

Of course, that doesn't actually mean the Sutter trade was a bad one-just that it was pretty much guaranteed to reduce Vrbata's production over the one season remaining on his contract. The may be benefits to having Sutter instead of Bonino that make up for that. (I've been a critic of that trade but don't think it fair to judge one way or the other on one season.)

One countervailing benefit is that all this got us higher place in the draft this summer and with it the chance to draft players who rate to make us better in the long-term than we would have been if drafting from a worse position this summer.

 

[Hit the post]

One countervailing benefit is that all this got us higher place in the draft this summer and with it the chance to draft players who rate to make us better in the long-term than we would have been if drafting from a worse position this summer.

So using Weber in the top four as a deliberate plan was a brilliant move by Benning!

(had the effect of also lowering the trade value of the OTHER pending UFA that had value - Hamhuis)

 

[Fat Tony]

You realize that Benning acquired one of those 3 top 40 picks, yes?

So he was not in such a dire predicament when he came on board?

 

[WhoseLainesItAnyway]

But we have up a guy whose "work ethic and drive to achieve his goals is unparalleled,"

"A tremendously intelligent and passionate offensive player," adds Ross MacLean, head scout for International Scouting Services. "He is strong on the puck, has quick reactions and knows how to score goals. He typically is the player on the ice who pushes the pace of play and forces everyone else to play the game at his speed. He has great hands and is extremely tenacious around the puck. I don’t think I’ve come across a player who loves the sport as much as Shinkaruk and his passion to be on the ice, scoring goals and winning games is unbelievable. He has tremendous potential to be an offensive star at the next level and is the type of player I wouldn’t even count out of being on a full-time NHL roster next year.

"His work ethic and drive to achieve his goals is unparalleled," MacLean continues. "He still needs to work on his defensive play and continue to get stronger. Shinkaruk is at his best when something is on the line and he has the ability to put his team on his back and will them to victory. He has very high ability with tremendous intangibles and a relentless desire to improve, which will take him wherever he wants to go."

 

[Ryp37]

You realize that Benning acquired one of those 3 top 40 picks, yes?

Yes? In the Kesler trade, like any GM could have gotten with a Kesler trade chip

The team was coming off a 25th place finish, Luongo was traded for scraps by the previous GM and Kesler demanded a trade to ONE team. Looks like an ugly situation to me.

And they were in the playoffs for the first half of the season. 1 half season collapse caused by an out of touch coach doesn't make this a dumpster fire of a team with no hope or assets. Gillis even said that it would be a transition year due to the cap going down. Won't go into the Kesler trade talks as it's been talked about ad nauseam

Do you think Benning has done the best job he could given the situation?

 

[Ryp37]

Benning traded Vrbata's centre from the previous season, Vrbata wasn't happy with the replacement and ended up having a horrible season, partly the result of not having a good center to put with a sniper such as Vrbata and partly, I'm guessing, from Vrbata's giving up on the season because of it, making things much worse.

But Vrbata's falling off a cliff happened for a reason and that wasn't just that he was a year older or just that he had a bad attitude. He got that attitude from somewhere.

Of course, that doesn't actually mean the Sutter trade was a bad one-just that it was pretty much guaranteed to reduce Vrbata's production over the one season remaining on his contract. The may be benefits to having Sutter instead of Bonino that make up for that. (I've been a critic of that trade but don't think it fair to judge one way or the other on one season.)

One countervailing benefit is that all this got us higher place in the draft this summer and with it the chance to draft players who rate to make us better in the long-term than we would have been if drafting from a worse position this summer.

Kind of weird how the 1 benefit to Bennings tenure is accidentally picking up top picks

 

[CherryToke]

Yes? In the Kesler trade, like any GM could have gotten with a Kesler trade chip



And they were in the playoffs for the first half of the season. 1 half season collapse caused by an out of touch coach doesn't make this a dumpster fire of a team with no hope or assets. Gillis even said that it would be a transition year due to the cap going down. Won't go into the Kesler trade talks as it's been talked about ad nauseam

Do you think Benning has done the best job he could given the situation?

Who gives a **** what Gillis said, actions speak louder than words. bottom line, he ran the team into the ground, not Benning.

 

[Hit the post]

Who gives a **** what Gillis said, actions speak louder than words. bottom line, he ran the team into the ground not Benning.

Jethro must have dug the team to China this past season.

 

[sting101]

You've bought into nonsense...

Here's what the "succession plan" should be. You keep the best goalie you have available - the best combination of quality, cost, and longer term availability. When another goalie proves to be a better combination of quality, cost, and longer term availability... he now becomes the best option, until a better option eventually unseats him.

To make decisions now, based on the idea that Demko will be on the team at some point in the future, is nonsense. Investing that much money into Miller, at the expense of having the difference in Miller and Lack's salary that could have been used to address the defense, is nonsense. Continuing with Miller next season (to become some future mentor to Demko... who may or may not actually become a NHL player), when Markstrom has now shown himself to be at least comparable to Miller (which is a rather average bar), is nonsense.

You are supporting the actions of a jaded and delusional decision maker. No decisions should be made now, based on prospects who may or may not become NHLers one day... What you especially don't do, is give a time frame for when the prospect will be in the NHL, and make decisions around that in the present tense. If Demko is ready to be the best option one day, we will all know... just like we will all know if he's not. To me, that there are some people arguing to keep Miller (and not using his $ elsewhere) because it's a variable in a logical succession plan is a loss of plot from people who have bought into nonsense and fairytales about the "Prince that was Promised". If Demko is the Prince that was Promised, it will become clear, and Demko will be worth making NHL roster decisions around, at that time.

I agree with what your saying in concept....except......

Lack is a decent backup not starter. He's had 3 in season stretches where he's played good/above his starter.....Luongo...Miller....Ward....by 28 he hasn't shown an ability to carry a load as a starter.?

Analysts (Woodley, Auld, Melanson, Cloutier, Healy Biron Hrudey) have all called him a good backup and not a starter or endorsed an AHL goalie as a better one to keep going forward.......not to mention his camp wanted 4 million dollars as the Canuck starter with term ......keeping Lack would have anointed him starter and worthy of starter cash and it would have flew against everything you just said about projection with Demko except you would be willing to do it at the very highest level. And freed 2 million dollars to get a defenseman?

A little chronology needs to be taken into context as well.

When our new President and GM were hired our owner was some pissed at the previous regime for turning the envy of the league and a good friend in Luongo into a laughing stalk. Do you think when they had meetings there was a burning desire to rectify this problem? Lack played terribly after Lou went to Florida. He played horribly to start 2014. He finished horribly against Calgary in 2015. He again started horribly this season and struggled down the stretch out played by a mediocre veteran starter (sound familiar) with Carolina. At this point Eddie Lack if here is Luca Sbisa.....I'm glad we chose not to have another Luca Sbisa.