Canucks Managerial Thread | Part 19 | Maybe we are in on Tallon, maybe not? *Post #61

[racerjoe]

I can't say I don't know where you're coming from. Most of the guys that Benning has brought in to fill out the roster have been...underwhelming, to be generous.

But to suggest that this team is a mess because players like Vey, Bartowski and Granlund haven't worked out is a little simplistic.

This team went *years* without adding any young talent, especially up front. That takes time to recover from.

Has Benning done enough to improve the team? No. He hasn't. But the job is much bigger than some admit.

This was not a great situation that he inherited, but Benning's job is to fix it. This is a massive year for him.

This team is where it is because it's lost it's depth. It's going from Garrisson to Sbisa, Richardson to Vey, and Kassian to Granlund, all of those are downgrades.

Yes this team is getting older, but getting younger for the sake of getting younger isn't good.

 

[Alan Jackson]

This team is where it is because it's lost it's depth. It's going from Garrisson to Sbisa, Richardson to Vey, and Kassian to Granlund, all of those are downgrades.

Yes this team is getting older, but getting younger for the sake of getting younger isn't good.

Add Garrison, Richardson and Kassian to last year's team, and we still miss the playoffs.

 

[Hit the post]

Add Garrison, Richardson and Kassian to last year's team, and we still miss the playoffs.

But I thought Benning said we finished 28th because we lost Sutter?

 

[WhoseLainesItAnyway]

185 is still 15 lbs. smaller than the league average. And he plays small. To try and claim that this isn't a small player is just ludicrous.

Small, slow, soft bottom-6 centers who can't win faceoffs aren't a thing in the NHL. I'm having trouble even thinking of any.

And I was hardly attached to Shinkaruk. Didn't love him as a prospect, but recognized he had value and that value should have gone into improving the team, not acquiring a completely redundant, replacement-level asset.

Daniel Sedin is 6'1" 187lbs
Markus Granlund is 6'0" 185lbs

Is Daniel Sedin a small player? Can we please stop with this size nonsense? Granlund's physical tools are average.

Unless you were speaking to other GM's we can't know what Shinkaruk's value actually was to them. IMO Trevor Linden and Jim Benning are good men who work hard and understand the game a lot better than most people so I'm willing to wait before declaring the trade a failure.

 

[geebaan]

Daniel Sedin is 6'1" 187lbs
Markus Granlund is 6'0" 185lbs

Is Daniel Sedin a small player? Can we please stop with this size nonsense? Granlund's physical tools are average.

Unless you were speaking to other GM's we can't know what Shinkaruk's value actually was to them. IMO Trevor Linden and Jim Benning are good men who work hard and understand the game a lot better than most people so I'm willing to wait before declaring the trade a failure.

Did you just intentionally ignore all the points he was trying to make? Granlund has non of the skill or smarts that let Daniel do what he does, not to mention his shot had a huge uptic on its effectiveness this year. He was saying Granlund is slow, and plays small, even FOR his size.

 

[absolute garbage]

But to suggest that this team is a mess because players like Vey, Bartowski and Granlund haven't worked out is a little simplistic.

Wrong. When you add nothing but garbage players and garbage contracts while shipping out better players for nothing in a 2 year window, you're damn right the team becomes a mess because of that.

This was not a great situation that he inherited, but Benning's job is to fix it. This is a massive year for him.

Wrong. He inherited a team in a very good position to retool with a bunch of good assets, cap space and excellent veteran group. He completely decimated all of those, made the short-term team significantly worse while gaining zero long-term pieces in the process.

 

[WhoseLainesItAnyway]

Did you just intentionally ignore all the points he was trying to make? Granlund has non of the skill or smarts that let Daniel do what he does, not to mention his shot had a huge uptic on its effectiveness this year. He was saying Granlund is slow, and plays small, even FOR his size.

Granlund is a smart player with an accurate wrist shot and good vision according to nearly every scouting report and my own viewings.

He played no worse than Baertschi did in his first 15 games this season.

He's the same size as Daniel Sedin.

He's not a perfect player.. He has weaknesses to work on but those are things he can very easily improve like his strength and consistency. His speed is fine but if he can improve that he can be a top 6 guy.

 

[arttk]

Add Garrison, Richardson and Kassian to last year's team, and we still miss the playoffs.

Weird statement considering we did make the playoffs with Richardson and Kassian. Are you pretending that last year didn't happen or something?

 

[Peter10]

This was not a great situation that he inherited, but Benning's job is to fix it. This is a massive year for him.

It was Bennings job to fix it when he got here and he has done pretty much nothing about it. He has replaced solid (albeit slightly overpaid) guys with useless dime in a dozen players.

Getting players in this mid 20s year old range is nice if they are able to hold their own. If you just bring in some random 23ish players just because they fit the age range its bad. Obviously age is important but its only a secondary deed.

 

[racerjoe]

Add Garrison, Richardson and Kassian to last year's team, and we still miss the playoffs.

Weird statement considering we did make the playoffs with Richardson and Kassian. Are you pretending that last year didn't happen or something?

Thanks for saying pretty much exactly what I was going to say. We were worse this season because we lost depth. We were never contenders, but we should have been much better if the plan was to try and win.

 

[Peter10]

Granlund is a smart player with an accurate wrist shot and good vision according to nearly every scouting report and my own viewings.

He played no worse than Baertschi did in his first 15 games this season.

He's the same size as Daniel Sedin.

He's not a perfect player.. He has weaknesses to work on but those are things he can very easily improve like his strength and consistency. His speed is fine but if he can improve that he can be a top 6 guy.

Granlund is not a smart player and he doesnt have good vision at the NHL level (yet) he may get there but right now he is far far away from that. I also disagree that he was no worse than Baertschi. With him you could see that the skill is there but he just played on the perimeter and was afraid to go to the tough areas. Granlund has even problems to hold onto his own in the easy areas right now, he handles he puck like a granade and has no vision for the players around him. He cant win faceoffs and at this point he is pretty much useless in the d-zone.

I am not saying that he isnt going to be a useful player in the league but the clock is ticking. He is waiver eligible and at this point I d rather have Vey in the lineup than him. He is just very late in his development curve, so he ll either be a late bloomer or a bust. My money is on the ladder right now.

 

[rune74]

Wrong. When you add nothing but garbage players and garbage contracts while shipping out better players for nothing in a 2 year window, you're damn right the team becomes a mess because of that.



Wrong. He inherited a team in a very good position to retool with a bunch of good assets, cap space and excellent veteran group. He completely decimated all of those, made the short-term team significantly worse while gaining zero long-term pieces in the process.

He did not inherit a good team, this is completely wrong. Is this really what you will argue?

 

[arttk]

Granlund is a smart player with an accurate wrist shot and good vision according to nearly every scouting report and my own viewings.

He played no worse than Baertschi did in his first 15 games this season.

He's the same size as Daniel Sedin.

He's not a perfect player.. He has weaknesses to work on but those are things he can very easily improve like his strength and consistency. His speed is fine but if he can improve that he can be a top 6 guy.

Except that he wasn't able to produce anything with us or with the Flames. That is a fact and he has been poor this season, it's weird that you would just ignore what happened in Calgary and look at his games here and compare it with Baertschi's first 15 games with us. Never mind that Granlund got a hell lot more opportunity compared to Baertschi, gifted 1st PP time, 2nd line minutes and offensive zone starts. He was put in a position to succeed and none of his tools came through.

He has great vision? Well that didn't contribute to anything on the 1st PP. He has accurate shot? Well he sucks at generating shots so what's the point. He put up slightly more than 1shots per game with us despite being on the 1st PP and 2nd line, that's just sad. It's like his shots per game didn't actually increase despite the increase minutes and opportunity. He is weak as hell, he is listed as 6'0 @ 178, so 1 inch shorter and around 10lbs lighter than Daniel, not sure how that is the same size 10lbs worth of muscle is a lot and the twins are some of the best conditioned players in the team/league.

He is not a perfect player is the biggest ****ing understatement can make bout Granlund.

 

[rune74]

Granlund is not a smart player and he doesnt have good vision at the NHL level (yet) he may get there but right now he is far far away from that. I also disagree that he was no worse than Baertschi. With him you could see that the skill is there but he just played on the perimeter and was afraid to go to the tough areas. Granlund has even problems to hold onto his own in the easy areas right now, he handles he puck like a granade and has no vision for the players around him. He cant win faceoffs and at this point he is pretty much useless in the d-zone.

I am not saying that he isnt going to be a useful player in the league but the clock is ticking. He is waiver eligible and at this point I d rather have Vey in the lineup than him. He is just very late in his development curve, so he ll either be a late bloomer or a bust. My money is on the ladder right now.

Weird a scouting report said this about him:
Markus has excellent offensive skills. Mikael is a fantastic playmaker and is better overall, obviously, but Markus has the same confidence to hold onto the puck and create chances. Even though Markus has a pretty decent shot, he stands out for his passes and playmaking. He makes smart passes to keep the puck moving and the game flowing.

Markus also positions himself well to either create a play, offer a teammate a chance to pass or set himself up for a scoring chance. He's got a massive hunger for points but lacks the same attitude in the defensive end.

 

[mossey3535]

I love how you guys are using scouting reports from 2012.

Four years ago, relative to players his age these assessments made sense. After four years of development, these things are no longer projections, they're like a list of things that failed to come to pass.

Lots of guys with skill and potential can never make those things come together at the NHL level.

I want Granlund to improve because otherwise it makes a bad situation even worse. But to act like he's shown a lot of indications that he will improve exponentially is inaccurate.

He gets beat in one-on-ones all the time and although he plays in hard areas, he loses the battles most of the time. Nor does he show extraordinary skill. Even when Baertschi was playing poorly he would sometimes make a play that would leave your mouth open.

I'd love to be wrong but all in all the chance is very low.

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

Wrong. When you add nothing but garbage players and garbage contracts while shipping out better players for nothing in a 2 year window, you're damn right the team becomes a mess because of that.



Wrong. He inherited a team in a very good position to retool with a bunch of good assets, cap space and excellent veteran group. He completely decimated all of those, made the short-term team significantly worse while gaining zero long-term pieces in the process.

Well said. Very well said.

The only young players we have who are worth much of anything are Horvat and Markstrom. Both were already here when Benning arrived. Virtanen or a different 19 year old would have been added by any GM inheriting that draft pick.

He has maybe, maybe found something in baertschi. Otherwise he's done nothing but toss aside a bunch of solid players, punt decent prospects and waste significant money on junk.

It's actually unfathomable that we are sitting here in 2016 with zero new prospects added from other organizations and almost zero extra draft picks considering all the players we've shipped out.

I'm not convinced Benning isn't a double agent from Boston sent to **** us over as best as he can. That is the only context under which you can reasonably conclude he is doing a good job.

 

[mossey3535]

In my opinion the improvements to scouting were happening but were just showing some progress.

So on one hand yes it is hard for Benning. But we still have 2-3 young players ready to jump to the NHL from the previous regime.

On the other hand, no body forced Benning to ship out the guys he did and then fail to replace them with either equivalent players or more bodies. What makes it worse is that the last two off-seasons have been the best in terms of getting veteran free agents due to the Canadian dollar and a turn towards youth from the whole league.

Please stop acting like Bartkowski and Weber were the only available defenders that could have been brought in to help this team. You COULD argue that they were what we could afford but that is also a situation benning has brought on himself by overpaying fringe guys.

 

[Hit the post]

I love how you guys are using scouting reports from 2012.

heh, what was Hodgon's scouting report from 2012?

 

[me2]

Weird a scouting report said this about him:
Markus has excellent offensive skills. Mikael is a fantastic playmaker and is better overall, obviously, but Markus has the same confidence to hold onto the puck and create chances. Even though Markus has a pretty decent shot, he stands out for his passes and playmaking. He makes smart passes to keep the puck moving and the game flowing.

Markus also positions himself well to either create a play, offer a teammate a chance to pass or set himself up for a scoring chance. He's got a massive hunger for points but lacks the same attitude in the defensive end.

But we have up a guy whose "work ethic and drive to achieve his goals is unparalleled,"

"A tremendously intelligent and passionate offensive player," adds Ross MacLean, head scout for International Scouting Services. "He is strong on the puck, has quick reactions and knows how to score goals. He typically is the player on the ice who pushes the pace of play and forces everyone else to play the game at his speed. He has great hands and is extremely tenacious around the puck. I don’t think I’ve come across a player who loves the sport as much as Shinkaruk and his passion to be on the ice, scoring goals and winning games is unbelievable. He has tremendous potential to be an offensive star at the next level and is the type of player I wouldn’t even count out of being on a full-time NHL roster next year.

"His work ethic and drive to achieve his goals is unparalleled," MacLean continues. "He still needs to work on his defensive play and continue to get stronger. Shinkaruk is at his best when something is on the line and he has the ability to put his team on his back and will them to victory. He has very high ability with tremendous intangibles and a relentless desire to improve, which will take him wherever he wants to go."

 

[me2]

I can't say I don't know where you're coming from. Most of the guys that Benning has brought in to fill out the roster have been...underwhelming, to be generous.

But to suggest that this team is a mess because players like Vey, Bartowski and Granlund haven't worked out is a little simplistic.

This team went *years* without adding any young talent, especially up front. That takes time to recover from.

Has Benning done enough to improve the team? No. He hasn't. But the job is much bigger than some admit.

This was not a great situation that he inherited, but Benning's job is to fix it. This is a massive year for him.

Then it went two years under Benning shipping out talent for nothing.

 

[rune74]

Well said. Very well said.

The only young players we have who are worth much of anything are Horvat and Markstrom. Both were already here when Benning arrived. Virtanen or a different 19 year old would have been added by any GM inheriting that draft pick.

He has maybe, maybe found something in baertschi. Otherwise he's done nothing but toss aside a bunch of solid players, punt decent prospects and waste significant money on junk.

It's actually unfathomable that we are sitting here in 2016 with zero new prospects added from other organizations and almost zero extra draft picks considering all the players we've shipped out.

I'm not convinced Benning isn't a double agent from Boston sent to **** us over as best as he can. That is the only context under which you can reasonably conclude he is doing a good job.

I'm honestly shocked that you think he inherited a strong team...the hate is strong to believe that.

 

[Jyrki21]

But I thought Benning said we finished 28th because we lost Sutter?

The irony is there is actually some truth to this because of said pittance of depth.

 

[racerjoe]

He did not inherit a good team, this is completely wrong. Is this really what you will argue?

A cup contender? No. A team that should rebuild? That's fair. A team on the way down? Sure. A bad team? I don't know, it is a team that had what 5 years of finishing over 100 points, out of 6 years, how many division championships? 2 Presidents trophies. Hell the very next year we had 101 points, with the old guard leading the way.

This was a good team.

Feel free to argue the other way.

 

[me2]

I'm honestly shocked that you think he inherited a strong team...the hate is strong to believe that.

He inherited a team capable of bouncing back to 100+points and turned it into the 3rd worst in the league. There was $10-12m in cap space to fill the gaps, $17m with Kesler traded.

The argument that the team was bad has been comprehensively revealed as bunk too many times to keep bothering to correct in detail.

Arguments about needing to rebuild because of age etc have far more value.

 

[Zaddy91]

Stealth tank.