Canucks Managerial Thread II

[Intangibos]

3-0 start to the season--better then someone of you thought

We're more concerned with our record at the end of the season.

 

[NoShowWilly]

3-0 start to the season--better then someone of you thought

yup, thought the Coyotes were going to be the bottom from start to finish. My bad.

 

[Eddy Punch Clock]

3-0 start to the season--better then someone of you thought

3-0-1...... so not quite as good as you thought.

 

[sting101]

Absolutely. If people don't think Benning would be torn to shreds over that trade if he wasted that pick they're kidding themselves. If the 24th overall busted you wouldn't hear a single fan saying 'that trade wasn't so bad, after all, it was a 1st Rd pick! What he did with it is irrelevant in judging that deal!'.

That draft was wide open after the top 5-7 players. Didn't look like much separated 10th overall from 24th overall to me, and in hindsight, it still appears that way IMO. Can't say I would be in a big hurry to deal McCann for Nick Ritchie right now...

And yeah, I look at the Horvat/Schneider trade as an excellent one for Gillis. Not because he got a 9th overall pick, but because of what he did with it. If that pick was wasted, again, you wouldn't hear anyone claiming what a great trade it was. No way, no how. And yeah, I thought it was common knowledge that deal was agreed upon the night before the draft - they just wanted to give the crowd something to cheer about.

Looking at the Kesler return without knowing who would get picked it looked like a respectable return under the circumstances. After seeing what Benning could do with that pick at the draft table, it looks that much better.

Exactly.
It's not like Nonis wasn't ever judged for the Patrick White selection.
What do people around here even think a 24th pick is worth. Let me phrase it this way......If we traded the Boeser pick what would people be happy with as a player in return?

It's all what you turn it into and right now Benning has hit that trade out of the park.

 

[Verviticus]

no, he made a good pick. how is this so hard to understand? drafting and trading are two things. they have two different definitions. this isnt complicated

 

[vanuck]

What does it matter if two of them were in Finland?

Jonsson was tied for 3rd / 4th in scoring when he went back to the SHL, after his NHL career. He was never 4th in scoring as a 19 year-old.

So out of all those players I listed, 2 were 19 and none made the NHL after finishing 4th in overall scoring as a 19 year-old. None made it as older players. It may be a good sign, but the odds are sill very low. Forsling's chances aren't great.

I'm not even sure what this means. Those guys were in playing in the Finnish junior league at the same age.

As for Kenny Jonsson he already had a good NHL career before even returning to the SHL to be 4th in scoring. The point is that he was a good prospect with potential seeing how he was already a full-time regular in Sweden at such a young age. He never had because he was already in the NHL.

Again, age vs. production matters when you're talking about potential. Even if the odds are objectively low, I'd say it compares favourably against the odds of D-men who spent 3 years to get out of the AHL.

 

[Intangibos]

Exactly.
It's not like Nonis wasn't ever judged for the Patrick White selection.
What do people around here even think a 24th pick is worth. Let me phrase it this way......If we traded the Boeser pick what would people be happy with as a player in return?

It's all what you turn it into and right now Benning has hit that trade out of the park.

So I guess you think Benning got absolutely fleeced then since he turned Garrison into Vey? I mean, a second round pick isn't close to fair value anyway, but Vey is really a cut below acceptable.

What about Booth? We not only got Booth (who was on pace for 25 goals until his career changing injury) for Samuelsson and Sturm, which is a trade people dump on all the time, but we also got Cassels. Solid trade by MG, right? What an excellent move by MG to get a 25 goal scorer like Booth and a solid prospect.

What an absolute joke. If I decide to buy someone's lottery ticket from them for $1000, and it happens to win, that's still a terrible deal and I just happened to hit. I could have got the same numbers on my own lottery ticket for $2. Just like Benning could have got more from Kesler and still got McCann, because the trade was for the 24th overall pick, not Jared McCann. Are you honestly telling me that if we traded Kesler for a 200th overall pick straight up, and we happened to draft a superstar with that pick, you would think it was a good trade? I might have some investment opportunities for you.

 

[opendoor]

Exactly.
It's not like Nonis wasn't ever judged for the Patrick White selection.

He was judged for his drafting for that. Just like any sensible person without an axe to grind can say "Dan Cloutier for a 2nd and a 3rd is a great move; drafting Taylor Ellington with that 2nd rounder is a terrible move".

 

[Drop the Sopel]

nothing about what he said suggests the trade was officially completed before the announcement.

What in the actual ****?

Gilman says explicitly the deal was done the night before the draft. Period. Then said New Jersey asked to not have it announced until the next day because they were hosting the draft. Absolutely no mention of the Canucks being allowed to pull out of the deal depending on who was left on the board.

 

[drax0s]

i dunno man, the trade was completed when the pick was available. it doesnt really matter if they agreed on the trade at the start of the season

You are really searching for a reason to keep your mistaken view of events. He specifically states the deal was reached last night but New Jersey asked them not to announce it until the draft. I don't see how much clearer it could be, personally.

 

[Verviticus]

this isnt very hard. they agreed to a trade. they waited until the pick. they made the trade immediately before the pick. if you dont understand, im sorry???

when the trade was announced is when the trade was official and that is what matters. again, it doesnt matter if it was from yesterday, two days prior, five days prior, a week prior etc... (even two weeks!)

 

[F A N]

Bo Horvat ranked 15th by central scouting

Chances he would be available at 9? High.


McCann ranked 10th NA skaters.

Chances he would be available at 24th overall pick? Very, very low.

Central Scouting has very little relevance to how the draft would unfold. For me, the best "mock draft" over the years has consistently been McKenzie's rankings. McCann was ranked 16th.

The point is that McCann was one of Benning's draft targets. There were other targets that Benning would be happy with such as Barbashev (whom McKenzie had at #23) David Pastrnak whom the Bruins picked right after McCann who was in the NHL last season, and even Thatcher Demko (whome McKenzie had at #27). There's not a whole lot separating that group.

 

[Drop the Sopel]

He was judged for his drafting for that. Just like any sensible person without an axe to grind can say "Dan Cloutier for a 2nd and a 3rd is a great move; drafting Taylor Ellington with that 2nd rounder is a terrible move".

And yet Gillis was torn to shreds over the Cory Schneider trade when it was made, only to have fans prop that trade up today as one of his best. Which it was, because he made excellent use of the pick. Had he flopped that pick, it would have gone down as one of the worst in franchise history.

It's the GM's job to assess the quality that will be available when they're deciding to trade or acquire 1st Rd picks. If you make good assessments, you give yourself a good chance to come away with good players. If you misjudge the quality and depth of the 1st Rd, you're much more likely to swing and miss.

Why do you think fans have done a complete 180 on the Horvat trade since last season. Because results matter. They're a thing.

 

[WTG]

no, he made a good pick. how is this so hard to understand? drafting and trading are two things. they have two different definitions. this isnt complicated

This basically sums the whole argument up.


The trade was for the 24th overall pick not McCann. Some people man.

 

[Intangibos]

And yet Gillis was torn to shreds over the Cory Schneider trade when it was made, only to have fans prop that trade up today as one of his best. Which it was, because he made excellent use of the pick. Had he flopped that pick, it would have gone down as one of the worst in franchise history.

It's the GM's job to assess the quality that will be available when they're deciding to trade or acquire 1st Rd picks. If you make good assessments, you give yourself a good chance to come away with good players. If you misjudge the quality and depth of the 1st Rd, you're much more likely to swing and miss.

Why do you think fans have done a complete 180 on the Horvat trade since last season. Because results matter. They're a thing.

Only fools ripped Gillis on the Schneider trade. It was an excellent return day 1. People may, however, have ripped his scouting at the time, and that would be fair. However, he's certainly been vindicated on the Horvat pick in regards to scouting.

Again, trading and drafting are two separate things.

9th overall = great value for Schneider
Bo Horvat at 9th overall = great pick at #9

24th overall = bad value for Kesler (combined with Bonino and Sbisa)
McCann at 24th overall = excellent pick at #24

Why is this complicated?

 

[opendoor]

And yet Gillis was torn to shreds over the Cory Schneider trade when it was made, only to have fans prop that trade up today as one of his best. Which it was, because he made excellent use of the pick. Had he flopped that pick, it would have gone down as one of the worst in franchise history.

It's the GM's job to assess the quality that will be available when they're deciding to trade or acquire 1st Rd picks. If you make good assessments, you give yourself a good chance to come away with good players. If you misjudge the quality and depth of the 1st Rd, you're much more likely to swing and miss.

Why do you think fans have done a complete 180 on the Horvat trade since last season. Because results matter. They're a thing.

Like I said, a "sensible person without an axe to grind". People who tore Gillis to shreds for getting a top 10 pick in a phenomenal draft for a goalie don't really fit that category IMO. Maybe they disagree with moving Schneider which is fair, but in terms of value that was a good trade when you consider the context of that draft and what goalies usually return.

I certainly agree that the strength of the draft should be taken into account, since that's integral into how the pick is valued. But what happens after that and the millions of possible permutations aren't really relevant in judging the value returned in the original trade. If McCann continues to improve and looks like a great player but suffers a career ending injury in a year or two does that all of the sudden make the trade worse? Or if Deven Sideroff turns into a superstar is that also going to make the trade way worse? Not in my opinion.

 

[sting101]

So I guess you think Benning got absolutely fleeced then since he turned Garrison into Vey? I mean, a second round pick isn't close to fair value anyway, but Vey is really a cut below acceptable.

What about Booth? We not only got Booth (who was on pace for 25 goals until his career changing injury) for Samuelsson and Sturm, which is a trade people dump on all the time, but we also got Cassels. Solid trade by MG, right? What an excellent move by MG to get a 25 goal scorer like Booth and a solid prospect.

What an absolute joke. If I decide to buy someone's lottery ticket from them for $1000, and it happens to win, that's still a terrible deal and I just happened to hit. I could have got the same numbers on my own lottery ticket for $2. Just like Benning could have got more from Kesler and still got McCann, because the trade was for the 24th overall pick, not Jared McCann. Are you honestly telling me that if we traded Kesler for a 200th overall pick straight up, and we happened to draft a superstar with that pick, you would think it was a good trade? I might have some investment opportunities for you.

He did get fleeced one for one but he turned the cash into Vrbata or Miller take your pick. Again it's what you make of it.

Nothing wrong with Gillis' trade either.

Your last rant doesn't even make sense (1000$ lottery ticket?)..what is a 24th pick with players like Barbashev, Pastrnak, Demko, McCann available worth? What would you want for that pick in terms of a player?

 

[VanillaCoke]

Verviticus, WTG, and intangibles speak the truth.

I wasn't a fan of the Schneider trade but I was pissed at losing Schneider and after I realized it's a great return for a goalie I got over it.

Kesler trade is just balls tho.

 

[sting101]

He was judged for his drafting for that. Just like any sensible person without an axe to grind can say "Dan Cloutier for a 2nd and a 3rd is a great move; drafting Taylor Ellington with that 2nd rounder is a terrible move".

You can use that 2nd and 3rd at the time of the trade to say that sure. But at the end of the deal if you bust your picks you just gave away a solid keeper for nothing.

I'm not sure why a 1st round pick in a front end loaded draft is looked at as a minor value. Are we forgetting Kesler was a 23rd pick himself.

 

[Verviticus]

after I got over the anger of not getting nich (fueled by smart people posting about horvat, thanks feeb tir and bleach) I was OK with the Schneider trade

 

[Drop the Sopel]

Like I said, a "sensible person without an axe to grind". People who tore Gillis to shreds for getting a top 10 pick in a phenomenal draft for a goalie don't really fit that category IMO. Maybe they disagree with moving Schneider which is fair, but in terms of value that was a good trade when you consider the context of that draft and what goalies usually return.

I certainly agree that the strength of the draft should be taken into account, since that's integral into how the pick is valued.

I wouldn't call it 'an axe to grind' if people were unhappy with trading what looked like a budding superstar goaltender just entering his prime. The odds of getting a Cory Schneider level talent at 9th overall were very very slim, which likely played into fan reaction as well. What Gillis made of that pick has affected how the trade is viewed, which should go without saying.

I deleted the fantasy portion of the last paragraph and kept the important part. If Benning felt there was little drop off from just outside the top 7-8 picks to 24th and thought he could get a high end prospect there, it makes sense that he would value the pick highly. If he thought it was a shallow draft, that's not an offer he probably accepts, instead looking to the Ducks prospect pool. His assessment of the draft is absolutely critical here and plays into the equation. To say otherwise is simply not seeing the whole picture.

Do you honestly think he wouldn't be torn to shreds if he wasted that pick on a nothing player? He absolutely would be. No questions asked. That player would ALWAYS be brought up when talking about the trade - not just the draft.

 

[Eddy Punch Clock]

This basically sums the whole argument up.


The trade was for the 24th overall pick not McCann. Some people man.

Remember that time we traded Grabner and Howden for Ballard?

 

[me2]

This basically sums the whole argument up.


The trade was for the 24th overall pick not McCann. Some people man.

Remember that time we traded Grabner and Howden for Ballard?

Same people complain about the Ballard trade

A cap dump, a guy on waivers and an AHLer. Phhtttt who cares, liabilities and duds for a guy that helped mentor the team to two presidents trophies and a SCF.

 

[VanillaCoke]

Remember that time we traded Grabner and Howden for Ballard?

That trade is a wash at worst

 

[sting101]

And yet Gillis was torn to shreds over the Cory Schneider trade when it was made, only to have fans prop that trade up today as one of his best. Which it was, because he made excellent use of the pick. Had he flopped that pick, it would have gone down as one of the worst in franchise history.

It's the GM's job to assess the quality that will be available when they're deciding to trade or acquire 1st Rd picks. If you make good assessments, you give yourself a good chance to come away with good players. If you misjudge the quality and depth of the 1st Rd, you're much more likely to swing and miss.

Why do you think fans have done a complete 180 on the Horvat trade since last season. Because results matter. They're a thing.

Agree.
It was a huge gamble. Trading a top 10 goalie for 1 pick/player was a move that could have backfired big time and if it did we would have every right to crap on Gillis for it. If the pick was Sam Morin there isn't a fan in this city that wouldn't lament the move and rightly so.

Gillis made a calculated gamble and right now it's looking solid.

Doesn't change the fact he turned the net into an absolute shamble and likely got fired for it. His end result was a fail.