Canucks Managerial Thread II

[Intangibos]

I understand trading some picks for cup contending. I do understand the concept of being a buyer at the deadline.

But by whiffs I am referring to Gillis's drafting. Do you think not adding one single roster player to the Canucks lineup in his first 5 drafts is acceptable?

The one exception is Hodgson who did play some games but that doesnt count because he is a bust and did not add a piece to the core or remain with the team.

First of all, he traded Hodgson for Kassian and both were looking very good. There is a reason Hodgson was given a 4m+ contract. Right now Anton Rodin is dominating in Sweden along with Westerholm and Tommernes. Cannata is looking okay for a late pick, McNally and Hutton have been in college and are both looking excellent, Grenier looks like he's almost ready to make the jump, as does Gaunce. Gillis also had to overhaul the scouting department, because of how terribly inept it was. Every team in the league wants to improve their scouting department, and Gillis had to completely overhaul it. After he finally got his guy, Crawford, in charge and had an excellent draft with him at the help, Benning fired him.

Gillis' scouting record is starting to look less bleak now that some of the guys are developing, and when you combine that with his top notch FA signings (both veteran and amateur like Lack and Tanev) it really isn't that bad. Especially when you consider that he quite clearly did work on trying to improve our scouting and looks like he managed to near the end of his tenure.

Seriously. Literally every GM in the league would love to hire more quality scouts, they aren't easy to come by. Gillis had to clean house in the scouting department, that can't be done overnight. Gillis' drafting record is certainly poor, but he isn't the one making those picks. His scouting department is and he was left with a bottom 5 scouting department in the league if not the worst. Nobody here is saying Gillis was a good drafter at all, but you have to understand he certainly wasn't left the tools to succeed. There is a reason we had our best draft in a decade after he promoted Crawford and finally managed to upgrade scouting.

 

[Verviticus]

NHL, NFL, doesnt matter which, drafting is how you win championships.

also signing free agents, making trades, uh, there's a lot of components. are you sure you understand how an nhl team works?

 

[Intangibos]

also signing free agents, making trades, uh, there's a lot of components. are you sure you understand how an nhl team works?

Apparently drafting players and then trading them away along with other picks for nothing is how you win championships. Making an excellent pick in Forsling, flipping him for trash and then throwing that trash into another downgrade trade is going to lead us to the cup. Are you a GM? No, so you have no right to question it. Market dictated value, every trade ever made is fair value. Teams can't get ripped off because obviously if a player is worth more they would have got more.

 

[Cupless44]

Of course Delorme ****ed the team. Most people accept that. Crawford was doing very nicely though, Gillis would have added just a fat a haul ass Benning in the 14 draft if he had still been here. Danielle for Gillis he wasn't supposed to finish up after that draft, would have taken all the wind out of the haters.

Please.

So when under Gillis's watch, you know the GM who makes the decisions, miss on 5 drafts it is Delormes fault but when Benning drafts Virtanen instead of Nylander who you all wanted it is Benning's fault? Yeah that works.

When you are the GM, the boss, the decision maker, in any business, sorry you don't get to pass the buck and blame it on your employees. This is the drafting record of Mike Gillis. The same man who arrogantly slammed the drafting of the previous regime at his opening press conference and promised better results but delivered worse results than Nonins and Burke who actually gave him the top players that got his team 2 Presidents Trophies.

 

[Cupless44]

To be fair, you're leaving out in one of those two playoff series mentioned where the Kings rolled over *EVERYONE* that year in the post-season.

Ok well the next year the Sharks didnt roll over anyone but dispatched the Canucks in 4 straight games

 

[Aphid Attraction]

also signing free agents, making trades, uh, there's a lot of components. are you sure you understand how an nhl team works?

Apparently drafting players and then trading them away along with other picks for nothing is how you win championships. Making an excellent pick in Forsling, flipping him for trash and then throwing that trash into another downgrade trade is going to lead us to the cup. Are you a GM? No, so you have no right to question it. Market dictated value, every trade ever made is fair value. Teams can't get ripped off because obviously if a player is worth more they would have got more.

Ahh there is the condescending sarcasm... And the dog pile... Very hard to argue with two poster using it at once... But you guys must all be right if you all just point a laugh...

 

[Ainec]

Why would Benning get credit for drafting Forsling? He was just hired prior to the draft and he proceeds to trade him for a trash of a prospect. It was obviously Gradin's hand

My issue with Benning is he clearly does no homework and seems to go after players he was high on 2-3 years ago when he was in charge of the draft for Boston.

 

[Intangibos]

Please.

So when under Gillis's watch, you know the GM who makes the decisions, miss on 5 drafts it is Delormes fault but when Benning drafts Virtanen instead of Nylander who you all wanted it is Benning's fault? Yeah that works.

When you are the GM, the boss, the decision maker, in any business, sorry you don't get to pass the buck and blame it on your employees. This is the drafting record of Mike Gillis. The same man who arrogantly slammed the drafting of the previous regime at his opening press conference and promised better results but delivered worse results than Nonins and Burke who actually gave him the top players that got his team 2 Presidents Trophies.

Gillis overruled the scouting staff to draft Hodgson over Beech. By all accounts our guys wanted Ehlers(Gilman) or Nylander(Gillis), and I'm not sure where the scouts landed, but Benning took Virtanen instead. You are aware there is a difference between a 6th overall pick and a 156th overall pick, right? It's much easier for a GM to have first hand knowledge on a first round player than a 5th round player.

Gillis slammed the scouting, and then worked to overhaul the scouting, then he did overhaul the scouting, then he got fired and his replacement fired his new competent scouting. Montreal already has their quality scouts but they immediately hired Crawford because teams are always looking to upgrade scouting. If Benning could upgrade an entire scouting department in 3 years, from being a bottom 3 in the league to one of the best, he would be one of the greatest GMs of all time

Ahh there is the condescending sarcasm... And the dog pile... Very hard to argue with two poster using it at once... But you guys must all be right if you all just point a laugh...

It's hard not to be condescending when just repeating someone's argument back to them sounds so crazy it offends them. If someone repeating your arguments back to you offends you for being 'sarcastic and condescending', then maybe you should stop making those arguments.

 

[Cupless44]

First of all, he traded Hodgson for Kassian and both were looking very good. There is a reason Hodgson was given a 4m+ contract. Right now Anton Rodin is dominating in Sweden along with Westerholm and Tommernes. Cannata is looking okay for a late pick, McNally and Hutton have been in college and are both looking excellent, Grenier looks like he's almost ready to make the jump, as does Gaunce. Gillis also had to overhaul the scouting department, because of how terribly inept it was. Every team in the league wants to improve their scouting department, and Gillis had to completely overhaul it. After he finally got his guy, Crawford, in charge and had an excellent draft with him at the help, Benning fired him.

Gillis' scouting record is starting to look less bleak now that some of the guys are developing, and when you combine that with his top notch FA signings (both veteran and amateur like Lack and Tanev) it really isn't that bad. Especially when you consider that he quite clearly did work on trying to improve our scouting and looks like he managed to near the end of his tenure.

Seriously. Literally every GM in the league would love to hire more quality scouts, they aren't easy to come by. Gillis had to clean house in the scouting department, that can't be done overnight. Gillis' drafting record is certainly poor, but he isn't the one making those picks. His scouting department is and he was left with a bottom 5 scouting department in the league if not the worst. Nobody here is saying Gillis was a good drafter at all, but you have to understand he certainly wasn't left the tools to succeed. There is a reason we had our best draft in a decade after he promoted Crawford and finally managed to upgrade scouting.

You make some points and I agree some of the picks are finally coming along.

But it doesnt change the bottom line I mentioned. A void in 23-27 year old talent on the roster because not one pick in 5 years became good player for the Canucks. Its fact. Rodin now at 27 or whatever playing well in Sweden means absolutely nothing to the talent or lack there of on the Canuck roster from those 5 drafts. You had a guy like Higgins playing on the 2nd line for so long because no top 6 forward came from those drafts

As for Hodgson, it isnt the plan to use a 10th overall pick on a player you have to trade for a 13th overall bust in his own right.

I dont know why you guys cant be honest and objective about this. Gillis did some good things. No one can say otherwise. But the failure of much his drafting is irrefutable.

 

[Cupless44]

also signing free agents, making trades, uh, there's a lot of components. are you sure you understand how an nhl team works?

Not getting into this with you but I can tell you I am an NFL fanatic. Maybe just save us some time and look where all the franchise QBs came from with the exception of Manning at the end of his career.

You still win through drafting. For every big free agent that helps there are more Haynesworths that bust and cost a pile of money. How is Suh doing in Miami?

Let's stick to hockey.

 

[Cupless44]

Ahh there is the condescending sarcasm... And the dog pile... Very hard to argue with two poster using it at once... But you guys must all be right if you all just point a laugh...

its ok its all they have on this issue. Other than arrtk who takes the other side and posts reasonable points there is alot of grasping going on here right now.

You can love Gillis all you want and the success the team had on his watch. He deserves credit and I give him that. But his poor drafting record up until 2013 is irrefutable. There are no homegrown drafted by Gillis players in their prime on the Canucks roster. The facts don't lie.

This isn't news btw. It has been talked about in the media extensively and was among the major reasons Gillis was fired.

 

[VanillaCoke]

its ok its all they have on this issue. Other than arrtk who takes the other side and posts reasonable points there is alot of grasping going on here right now.

You can love Gillis all you want and the success the team had on his watch. He deserves credit and I give him that. But his poor drafting record up until 2013 is irrefutable. There are no homegrown drafted by Gillis players in their prime on the Canucks roster. The facts don't lie.

This isn't news btw. It has been talked about in the media extensively and was among the major reasons Gillis was fired.

Convenient stipulation you put in there....

 

[Cupless44]

Gillis overruled the scouting staff to draft Hodgson over Beech. By all accounts our guys wanted Ehlers(Gilman) or Nylander(Gillis), and I'm not sure where the scouts landed, but Benning took Virtanen instead. You are aware there is a difference between a 6th overall pick and a 156th overall pick, right? It's much easier for a GM to have first hand knowledge on a first round player than a 5th round player.

Gillis slammed the scouting, and then worked to overhaul the scouting, then he did overhaul the scouting, then he got fired and his replacement fired his new competent scouting. Montreal already has their quality scouts but they immediately hired Crawford because teams are always looking to upgrade scouting. If Benning could upgrade an entire scouting department in 3 years, from being a bottom 3 in the league to one of the best, he would be one of the greatest GMs of all time



It's hard not to be condescending when just repeating someone's argument back to them sounds so crazy it offends them. If someone repeating your arguments back to you offends you for being 'sarcastic and condescending', then maybe you should stop making those arguments.

I dont need to "argue" with you on this. The facts are the facts. In his first 5 years of drafting Gillis did not add one single player that made an impact or is on the team today.

If you think that is good enough well that is your perogative but i don't need to argue the truth.

 

[Ryp37]

Bro, I'm an NFL fanatic trust me

Gillis made efforts to fix the drafting and it was a huge positive

Bennings drafts sucked in Boston, Weisbrods drafts sucked in Calgary and he fired Crawford the guy responsible for the positive change

 

[Ryp37]

Ben Hutton and Horvat are on the team by the way

 

[Verviticus]

Ahh there is the condescending sarcasm... And the dog pile... Very hard to argue with two poster using it at once... But you guys must all be right if you all just point a laugh...

my thing wasnt sarcastic, it was accusatory. its reductive and irritating when people say things like "Championsips Are Won On Defence" or "Teams Are Built Through Drafting". they might as well be stupid titles for the ever growing pile of self-help bonfire fuel these days

 

[Cupless44]

Convenient stipulation you put in there....

Is not convenient at all. Great after 7 years of Gillis drafting we have Horvat 20, and now Hutton a nice surprise at 22. About time.

But the problem is there are no player in their prime 23-27 from any Gillis draft that have come in behind the Sedins to support them and keep this team at the top of the western conference as a contender. It has been a completely obvious problem for a few years now.

Great that we have some young prospects coming along now. Only thing that keeps me watching. But because of what I mentioned above their is now a big gap between the Sedins and the next wave of top end talent. It is why the Canucks are no longer a serious western conference team and need a much more extensive rebuild.

A lot of serious and intelligent hockey fans here. I am a little surprised I have to spell this out. Pretty obvious problem to see for anyone that has been watching this team the past few years.

 

[Verviticus]

Not getting into this with you but I can tell you I am an NFL fanatic. Maybe just save us some time and look where all the franchise QBs came from with the exception of Manning at the end of his career.

You still win through drafting. For every big free agent that helps there are more Haynesworths that bust and cost a pile of money. How is Suh doing in Miami?

Let's stick to hockey.

i dont give a flying **** about the nfl and i only recognize one of those names. hence why i said nhl

 

[Hit the post]

Ok well the next year the Sharks didnt roll over anyone but dispatched the Canucks in 4 straight games

Because AV thought it would be wise to have the defensive pairing of Edler-Bieksa & the Sedins instead of Hamhuis-Garrison/Kesler line in the final moments of the game while holding a one goal lead in a pivotal game in the series.

Still think we would've lost the series (crap officiating aside) - it just made the series far more lopsided than it was.

 

[Ryp37]

Yeah guys why didn't Gillis pick all stars while winning president trophys!!

 

[Hit the post]

Yeah guys why didn't Gillis pick all stars while winning president trophys!!

heh, we only got the Sedins by stinking like ****.

 

[Cupless44]

Let me put it this way...

Do you think we would all be complaining about Higgins being misplaced on the 2nd line all this time if Gillis had nailed a legitimate top 6 forward in his first 5 drafts?

 

[arttk]

Yes and suffering from the void of 23-27 year old good players on the team due to Gillis trading away many picks and whiffing in his first 4-5 years of drafting.

You are right that Benning's fill the gap strategy hasnt been all sucessful. Hopefully for all of us Sven will pan out. But the very reason Benning adopted this strategy I covered in the paragraph above and my previous post.

The age gap is a stupid ass myth for the lazy.
We need young players period.

Let's do a thought experiment. If Horvat, Virtanen, McCann, Shink and Cassels can all contribute next year, does it matter that we don't have any guys between 23-25?

 

[Cupless44]

The age gap is a stupid ass myth for the lazy.
We need young players period.

Let's do a thought experiment. If Horvat, Virtanen, McCann, Shink and Cassels can all contribute next year, does it matter that we don't have any guys between 23-25?

yes it does matter because none of those players are close to being top 6 impact players that can go toe to toe with Gezlaf or Kopitar or standing up in a playoff series. Maybe Horvat by next year but it is too much to ask of most 20 year olds. We dont even know if Shink will ever get out of the AHL.

Both of our top centres were drafted. One is 35. One is 20. If that gap of a successful draft result isnt a little long for you than I am not sure what to say.

 

[Cupless44]

Yeah guys why didn't Gillis pick all stars while winning president trophys!!

The Ducks got Perry at 28 while actually winning cups. More excuses