Canucks Managerial Thread II

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b) Benning kept him on the team through the first season and saw he got into treatment, c) Canucks management were working with him to try and help him.

Won't address the rest because it's mostly garbage but both of these points are factually wrong. We have Benning on the record saying that Kassian's addiction problems were an issue of the previous management team and something he didn't deal with.
 
Won't address the rest because it's mostly garbage but both of these points are factually wrong. We have Benning on the record saying that Kassian's addiction problems were an issue of the previous management team and something he didn't deal with.

I trust Friedman over you proclaiming what I write is "garbage." (Nice contribution, by the way.)

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/30-thoughts-oilers-smartly-downgrade-captaincy/

Canadiens coach Michel Therrien confirmed Tuesday what was widely suspected, that Zack Kassian had already been through Stage One of the NHL/NHLPA Substance Abuse Program.

It had been rumoured that was the case in Vancouver, but the Canucks never confirmed it at the time, nor should they have. Stan Smyl spent a ton of time working with Kassian, but it’s very clear the Canadiens are already out of patience.

So yes, Canucks management had been working with him.

I was wrong about the timing of Kassian entering the substance abuse program -- there was an article like 3 days ago that I had missed, so I apologize on that.
 
my thing wasnt sarcastic, it was accusatory. its reductive and irritating when people say things like "Championsips Are Won On Defence" or "Teams Are Built Through Drafting". they might as well be stupid titles for the ever growing pile of self-help bonfire fuel these days

Thats if you take the cleche 100% literally... And I know you have to be smarter then that... If you draft really good picks you are doing the right thing... Look at teams that do win... They win with really good players they hsve drafted... They add to them sure, but they do not win without the players they are drafting...

And most of the time the team with the best defence does have a very successful season... And head to head in a final the smart money is on the best defencive team...

Bizarrely This all has no correlation to self help books
 
Gillis overruled the scouting staff to draft Hodgson over Beech. By all accounts our guys wanted Ehlers(Gilman) or Nylander(Gillis), and I'm not sure where the scouts landed, but Benning took Virtanen instead. You are aware there is a difference between a 6th overall pick and a 156th overall pick, right? It's much easier for a GM to have first hand knowledge on a first round player than a 5th round player.

Gillis slammed the scouting, and then worked to overhaul the scouting, then he did overhaul the scouting, then he got fired and his replacement fired his new competent scouting. Montreal already has their quality scouts but they immediately hired Crawford because teams are always looking to upgrade scouting. If Benning could upgrade an entire scouting department in 3 years, from being a bottom 3 in the league to one of the best, he would be one of the greatest GMs of all time :laugh:



It's hard not to be condescending when just repeating someone's argument back to them sounds so crazy it offends them. If someone repeating your arguments back to you offends you for being 'sarcastic and condescending', then maybe you should stop making those arguments.

Try that line of reasoning with a significant other as a test to see if you are corrert with it or not...
 
If you know anything about Benning than you should know he is a scout at heart. He scouts more games himself than most GMs. He is more hands on with draft picks than most GMs. Sure he listens and collaborates with his scouts but he has given them clearer directives than Gillis ever did. Not much doubt in my mind that Benning has the final say on all draft picks.

Can you guys find in your selves to give even the slightest credit to Benning for something? if you do it actually gives more weight to the moves you slam him for because it provides at least a hint of objectivity.

there are like 4 things he's done well and 40 he's done incorrectly. ive given him more credit than ive ever seen you criticize

you just cant bring yourself to say it, can you? "benning ****ed up x". theres dozens of things you can fill in x

to date ive said

vrbata was a good signing
baertschi was a decent target
forsling (the day of, no less) and jasek were excellent picks. boeser was fine
benning seems like a hardworker and maybe a networker which would be useful - if he wasnt so easily taken advantage of

to date ive seen you say

sbisa might be not the best signing that doesnt make a ton of sense but maybe benning knows something we dont
"the pro scouting in his regime has been poor"

thats it. and yet you prance around, whining about persecution and 'objectivity'
 
Fair enough thank you.

Agree the pro scouting in his regime has been poor.

But I think the first 2 drafts appear quite promising.

I also don't think credit for drafting of McCann should go to Gillis's scouts. Just like Gillis supporters probably dont want credit for the President Trophies to go to Nonis and Burke because they supplied all of the top players that drove the team.

With how things are shaping up we look like a bubble/bottom playoff team, same as last year. Now in my opinion, add in gillis' top notch pro scoutin & asset management to the vets in place and the kids emerging and we're close to being cup contenders again.
 
Thats if you take the cleche 100% literally... And I know you have to be smarter then that... If you draft really good picks you are doing the right thing... Look at teams that do win... They win with really good players they hsve drafted... They add to them sure, but they do not win without the players they are drafting...

its a worthless statement, which is what i said
 
****ing lol, stan smyl, noted benning hire

Sorry, there's been so many people going on about this garbage with Kassian that I keep forgetting who is saying what. Someone else was saying something like "WE DON'T KNOW IF THE CANUCKS WERE WORKING WITH KASSIAN AND IT'S UNFAIR TO ASSUME."

Did you miss the part right afterwards where I conceded Benning was pretty much washing his hands of it?

I wasn't a fan of the Kassian trade when it happened, but since more information has come out, it's clear what was going on with what. Kassian was a devalued asset and Benning had to take what he could get. I'm glad the Canucks didn't start becoming the Phaneuf/Iginla-era Flames.
 
Try that line of reasoning with a significant other as a test to see if you are corrert with it or not...

What? People said Lack, Kassian, Kesler and whoever else got what they were worth because the market dictated value. That implies that nobody can get ripped off because the market dictated value. I'm sorry if it was super sarcastic, but I wasn't taking your arguments to the absurd extreme, I was literally saying exactly what the argument is. I may have worded it in a way that seemed sarcastic but I didn't say anything other than what arguments were made for Benning's returns in trades.

there are like 4 things he's done well and 40 he's done incorrectly. ive given him more credit than ive ever seen you criticize

you just cant bring yourself to say it, can you? "benning ****ed up x". theres dozens of things you can fill in x

to date ive said

vrbata was a good signing
baertschi was a decent target
forsling (the day of, no less) and jasek were excellent picks. boeser was fine
benning seems like a hardworker and maybe a networker which would be useful - if he wasnt so easily taken advantage of

to date ive seen you say

sbisa might be not the best signing that doesnt make a ton of sense but maybe benning knows something we dont
"the pro scouting in his regime has been poor"

thats it. and yet you prance around, whining about persecution and 'objectivity'

Yeah, I agree, Benning has certainly done things that are good. It's just when you take into account both his good and bad trades, it's still overwhelmingly bad. I like Baertschi, I was skeptical of Pedan at the time but it looks like he could be a good move, and these are both moves I doubt very much Gillis would make himself. Maybe Baertschi but Gillis might not like the implied lack of character. I don't mean that as in Benning doesn't care about character, but Benning may not have agreed on the implied character issue flat out. So it's not a criticism at all, especially since I like the trade. I like Vrbata and McCann, although I think there's a high chance Gillis would have got Vrbata as well, and I think Gillis would have got McCann or one of Scherbak, Pasternak and Goldobin. I like Bartkowski in a vacuum, just don't like Bartkowski + Miller over a better D man + Lack.

I have no problem giving credit where credit is due, but for every Benning move I like, there are like 4 I dislike, and that's not good. Like objectively the overwhelming number of bad moves he's made is crazy, and lots of them are possibly crippling contracts in Sbisa and Miller. Benning is not some chimp throwing feces at a wall of players and trading for the ones it hits, he is someone who has been in hockey for years and surely knows a thing or two. It's just at the moment, he's made some seriously bad moves for the team.

I don't think Gillis was the best GM ever in hockey, but I do think he was very very good at his job. The biggest problem with him was his social skills, he didn't handle other GMs very well, although they did vote him for best GM of the year award. It's not that he was egotistical or snobby as much as he was blunt. I think he thought of himself as intelligent but I don't think he was ever really condescending as much as he was right to the point and says what he thinks. I think that hurt some relationships around the league that hopefully Gillis could repair and maybe have someone else deal with negotiations. That being said, a GM's job is to manage. A GM isn't making the picks, he's hiring a scouting team to make the picks. He gets all the info from the different departments and discusses it and makes the best decision he can. Benning has shown to do the opposite and just fire the people who are seemingly disagreeing with him. That's a bad manager, people who disagree with you are good so you can discuss the player without blinders on. Gillis modernized the team, the players loved him, he made shrewd 'moneypuck' moves to make the team very competitive, he saw the window closing and wanted to get younger and rebuild which was part of the reason he moved Schneider for Horvat. The biggest knock against Gillis that he didn't rebuild the scouting staff quick enough, but even if that's true, that's something he won't need to do again because he did it right the first time. Benning being bad at contract management, asset management and negotiation in general will hurt you every single time he does it.

Benning seems like a nice guy, and while I don't think his amateur scouting record is impressive, it's certainly better than I could do scouting at that level. However, he's simply lost value on the majority of his trades, and the majority of his contracts are overpayments. I would love for that trend to change, I want this team to win, I take no enjoyment in us losing. It just doesn't seem likely it will, and even if it does, his moves up until now have been objectively bad.

I'm sorry Gillis comes into the conversation sometimes, but aside from others bringing him up a lot, I think he should be relevant because Benning's job ultimately is to be better at managing the team than Gillis. Unfortunately, I don't think he has been close to that level, since Gillis was an above average GM and Benning is, I believe, one of the worst in the league. I have no attachment to Gillis, if Benning came in and did a good job I would have been ecstatic. I'm also someone who would be okay with trading long time Canucks, as long as the return was fair and they were handled with class, as sad as I may be to see them go. I have no reason to be biased against Benning at all. Just based on this past year, he is an awful general manager.
 
Reading the boards today it's pretty clear people need to learn a bit about addiction (and from the main boards what domestic violence is). For addiction things like character and professionalism or lack thereof has nothing to do whether a person has an addiction. I'll leave it at.

Pretty much. Many here have been treating it as some sort of character flaw when really addiction is something much more than that and needs the proper attention... and they tossed him to the curb because that sort of behavior didn't belong in their definition of "professionalism". :shakehead
 
Bonino should have also been used to return picks when his time was done here. Easily tradable to a contender with that contract. If Benning can get a 1st or two 2nds for Bonino it eases the blow of initial Kesler trade.

These compound mistakes are very damaging.

I still think getting Bonino was a lateral move at best. Given a choice between acquiring him in the trade and re-signing Santorelli for free, it should have been the latter. Kesler's value as our biggest trade chip was far too important to waste like this, and waste it they did.

The question is -can a GM take a good team, 'bleed value' and make 'atrocious talent evaluations' and still end up with a good team?

More like "why should any GM want to do that in the first place?"

Exactly. Thank you.

All of these most recent comments came from the post that erroneously claimed that Jim Benning inherited "a powerhouse" to work with.

I know you guys hate Benning but please, let's keep it real.

You've been called on this crap already before. Shall I start saying you love Benning conversely?
 
More like "why should any GM want to do that in the first place?"

The obvious answer is… no. You can't take a good team… "bleed value"…. "make atrocious talent evaluations"… and end up with a good team. And if this team does happen to be good (I think it is)… it's not going to get worse anytime soon.
 
Pretty much. Many here have been treating it as some sort of character flaw when really addiction is something much more than that and needs the proper attention... and they tossed him to the curb because that sort of behavior didn't belong in their definition of "professionalism". :shakehead

Proper behavior would be the kind that Lucic would bring.:sarcasm:

The obvious answer is… no. You can't take a good team… "bleed value"…. "make atrocious talent evaluations"… and end up with a good team. And if this team does happen to be good (I think it is)… it's not going to get worse anytime soon.

Health/Injuries will dictate how well this club does this season.

Even with a guy like Torts at the helm - we were in a playoff spot until the injuries piled up (and/or guys ran out of gas).
 
two hypotheses:

1. when kassian mysteriously sat out the rest of the year last spring, that was him entering the program right?

2. man oh man, if you had a young kid like that the last place you'd send him to is montreal right? one of the biggest party cities in north america, probably the one where hockey players are both enabled and adored the most and most scrutinized. and the habs of course are the organization most likely to not help you at all and chuck you to the curb the minute you do anything that "jean beliveau wouldn't do." (see: montreal trading chris chelios in '90, and then giving away heart and soul captain guy carbonneau after his DUI.) seems almost vindictive, like chucking a cinder block at a drowning guy.
 
2. man oh man, if you had a young kid like that the last place you'd send him to is montreal right? one of the biggest party cities in north america, probably the one where hockey players are both enabled and adored the most and most scrutinized. and the habs of course are the organization most likely to not help you at all and chuck you to the curb the minute you do anything that "jean beliveau wouldn't do." (see: montreal trading chris chelios in '90, and then giving away heart and soul captain guy carbonneau after his DUI.) seems almost vindictive, like chucking a cinder block at a drowning guy.

Not even close.

Vindictive would be if a player who had a niece with a terminal desease wanting to be traded to a team closer to her (to be near her in her last days); then have the GM trade him to a team *FURTHER* away. Hello Burkie.

(player in question was Peter Zezel).
 
Health/Injuries will dictate how well this club does this season.

Even with a guy like Torts at the helm - we were in a playoff spot until the injuries piled up (and/or guys ran out of gas).

Yeah… but Benning has been "bleeding assets" and "making atrocious talent evaluations" since then. Team should be much, much worse than those "powerhouses".
 
Not even close.

Vindictive would be if a player who had a niece with a terminal desease wanting to be traded to a team closer to her (to be near her in her last days); then have the GM trade him to a team *FURTHER* away. Hello Burkie.

(player in question was Peter Zezel).

i never have understood this line of argumentation.

A: that pol pot was a bad dude.

B: not even close. a bad dude is adolf hitler, who....
 
Health/Injuries will dictate how well this club does this season.

Even with a guy like Torts at the helm - we were in a playoff spot until the injuries piled up (and/or guys ran out of gas).

We won't find out either way until the "vets" on the team (eg. Sedins) are gone or past their due date.

Where did I say that?

Vets (eg., Sedins) are still good enough to carry this team. But obviously they aren't going to be at this level forever.

There are vets gone. Kesler, Santorelli, Garrison are gone from the team you referred to.
 
two hypotheses:

1. when kassian mysteriously sat out the rest of the year last spring, that was him entering the program right?

2. man oh man, if you had a young kid like that the last place you'd send him to is montreal right? one of the biggest party cities in north america, probably the one where hockey players are both enabled and adored the most and most scrutinized. and the habs of course are the organization most likely to not help you at all and chuck you to the curb the minute you do anything that "jean beliveau wouldn't do." (see: montreal trading chris chelios in '90, and then giving away heart and soul captain guy carbonneau after his DUI.) seems almost vindictive, like chucking a cinder block at a drowning guy.
I think Benning was on the record saying Zack had gone through stage 1 before he got the job in Vancouver. I also think that this management group had no time for him and wanted him out of Vancouver asap. I don't think Benning is the kind of person to deal with serious problems with one of his players, just get rid of them and let someone else deal with it.
 
Mccann is basically proof benning is a superior gm than gillis ever was.

5 drafts at 22-29 and he couldnt get one mccann
 
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