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Canucks Management and Ownership Thread v30.0 (Post #186)

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The only young piece they've brought in (outside of the regular draft picks we get every year) that might make any sort of impact in the future is Stecher. :laugh: Vey was terrible (lost a 2nd), Clendening was a bust (lost Forsling), Baertschi and Granlund are nothing special/easily replaceable (lost Shinkaruk and a 2nd), and Gudbranson is very limited (lost McCann and very early 2nd). They also rushed Virtanen to the NHL and did a good job screwing up some of the most important developmental years in his career.

And of course the prospect pool somehow got a lot worse in the two and half years they've been here. After the top 4 prospects, there's a huge drop in talent.



I know he has to say that, but people really need to stop making excuses for these clueless buffoons by blaming Aquilini. He's a big part of the problem, but the current state of the team is on Lindenning with the terrible moves they've made.
 
This management is damn lucky Hutton, Stecher, Horvat, Markstrom all forced their hands and played well enough to make the team, in which they weren't originally planned on making. Markstrom is probably the only one who they actually penciled in to make the team.

Willie was not a fan of Horvat to start, but Horvat played well enough that he forced their hand and they had to keep him around. Now we are seeing it with Hutton and Stecher.

They rushed Virtanen. They rushed McCann, then later traded him.

I would hardly say this is any sort of big youth movement, by choice. More so, it's a youth movement that gave them no choice.
 
Lost:

Jared McCann (20)
Gustav Forsling (20)
Hunter Shinkaruk (21)
2nd round pick (McKeown - 20 )
2nd round pick (Andersson - 20)
2nd round pick (Asplund - 18)

Gained:

Markus Granlund (23)
Sven Baertschi (24)
Erik Gudbranson (25)

"We tried to get younger."

****ing moron.
 
RJL said:
Lost:

Jared McCann (20)
Gustav Forsling (20)
Hunter Shinkaruk (21)
2nd round pick (McKeown - 20 )
2nd round pick (Andersson - 20)
2nd round pick (Asplund - 18)

Gained:

Markus Granlund (23)
Sven Baertschi (24)
Erik Gudbranson (25)

"We tried to get younger."

****ing moron.
Click to expand...

Lol you included picks
 
RJL said:
Lost:

Jared McCann (20)
Gustav Forsling (20)
Hunter Shinkaruk (21)
2nd round pick (McKeown - 20 )
2nd round pick (Andersson - 20)
2nd round pick (Asplund - 18)

Gained:

Markus Granlund (23)
Sven Baertschi (24)
Erik Gudbranson (25)

"We tried to get younger."

****ing moron.
Click to expand...

I like Granlund for Shinkaruk.

Forsling for Clendenning is beyond putrid.
 
Beansy said:
I like Granlund for Shinkaruk.

Forsling for Clendenning is beyond putrid.
Click to expand...

That one is definitely looking like the best one so far.

But I prefer to look at things in terms of the overall body of work, rather than transaction-by-transaction. They've tossed away 3 decent prospects and a bevy of draft picks in exchange for mostly waiver-wire garbage, and then tried to spin it as "we're trying to get younger." It's nonsense.
 
BloatedGuppy said:
The nice thing about "reality" is that it's always there for easy reference.

1999 - Daniel and Henrik Sedin
2001 - Kevin Bieksa
2003 - Ryan Kesler
2004 - Cory Schneider, Alex Edler and Jannick Hansen

Quick, name the core players from the 2008-2012 years of primacy.

...

That 2005-2012 stretch is pretty dire by any standard. Some of it can be excused...the team was competitive so it picked lower, the team was chasing a cup so they jettisoned some picks for immediate help...but some of it...like the high profile whiff on Hodgson...was extremely damaging to the team's long term prospects, and hamstrung its ability to transition into a new core.
Click to expand...


The premise of this discussion is effectively: bad drafting between 2006-2012 = bad team. I disagree. Drafting is an avenue to creating a better team, but it is not an imperative. It comes down to the definition of a bad-middling-good team.

The true top line players you listed above are from 1999... The Canucks have squeezed out two eras from that one draft... 17 years ago.


We spent 5 years drafting cornerstone players and it allowed a transition from one high quality squad (the WCE years) to another (the Sedin/Luongo years). Naturally both eras were well supplemented by trades, but the 2011 team was predominantly built through the draft. Arguing the team has "never drafted well" is somewhat willfully ignorant of this chapter of history.
Click to expand...


But how did the WCE squad come to be? Who's willfully ignoring that?

Who's ignoring how Luongo got here?

Your statement about "naturally both eras were well supplemented by trades", tells me that you treat these events as a given... No, those trades essentially _created_ eras. Without them, you wouldn't have the WCE era at all. Nor would you have the Sedins-led Canucks reach the heights they had achieved. Remember, they were front-liners when Nonis orchestrated 2 playoff misses in 3 years. How did Gillis get them there without drafting over his tenure? If you say "development", then I would say: The Sedins were already 1st liners, are we really localizing that development to Kesler?


So...your house is on fire. Years of insufficient picks and poor drafts have left the house on fire. Enter the fireman. Enter Jim Benning.

Benning looks around, assesses that the house is on fire, and immediately starts trading draft picks and young players for "age gap" assets...at least some of whom are poorly conceived, and gives up value in every trade...either because he wants to maintain cordial relationships with other managers or because he's the eponymous sucker born every minute. He natters about rebuilding on the fly and making the playoffs every team, signs some high profile free agents who perform dubiously, and really does everything except the obviously required path of tear down/rebuild through draft volume.

So to continue our analogy, Benning the fireman shows up and immediately starts throwing buckets of gasoline on the house fire. Age Gap. Overpaying for Culture Carriers. Bad Pro Scouting. Low draft pick volume. Etc, etc.

So, did Benning start the fire? Y/N?

In acknowledging that Benning didn't start the fire, is this analogy supportive of Benning in any way, or "letting him off the hook", or "deflecting blame"? Am I suggesting Jim Benning is a good fireman and will eventually get that fire out? Most people are now just praying he burns the house down as fast as possible so we're FORCED to rebuild the bloody thing.

If there's anything "detached from reality" it's pretending the only problem this franchise has ever faced is the madman known as Jim Benning. The problems go back further than that, and the questionable motivations/behaviors go a lot further (and more worryingly) up the food chain than Benning. None of that makes Benning "a good GM" or should be perceived as a passionate defense of his decision making. It's just calling a spade a spade.
Click to expand...


How is anyone pretending that the only problem this franchise has ever faced is Jim Benning? How does that even become an accusation when it has been acknowledged that the team has drafted poorly for... forever? When I have said on numerous occasions that Gillis has to own his drafting record? This makes no sense whatsoever.

The discussion here is "bad drafting from 2006-2012 = bad team now". No. That is incorrect. You could have ended up with a middling team without Benning touching a thing! You could have cycled vets for picks, picked up undervalued talent, traded better, negotiated signings better, developed your prospects better and created an influx of talent via drafting for volume within 3 years etc... etc.. That assertion by CL should be contested. It's an attribution error. This team could have very easily been "middling" (A Wild Card team), draft picks from 2006 to 2012 turning up or not.
 
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RJL said:
Lost:

Jared McCann (20)
Gustav Forsling (20)
Hunter Shinkaruk (21)
2nd round pick (McKeown - 20 )
2nd round pick (Andersson - 20)
2nd round pick (Asplund - 18)

Gained:

Markus Granlund (23)
Sven Baertschi (24)
Erik Gudbranson (25)

"We tried to get younger."

****ing moron.
Click to expand...
Granlund and Baertschi are a dime a dozen bottom 6ers. Gudbranson ... well... ya.
 
Well said Bleach.

Mind numbing how any of Bennings failures always somehow come full circle to blaming Gillis. Like he forced his hand to trade away draft picks and young players for band aids and used toilet paper.

Any stuff of Benning having an eye for talent should be thrown out the window
 
Beansy said:
I like Granlund for Shinkaruk.

Forsling for Clendenning is beyond putrid.
Click to expand...

I don't think I'll ever be a fan of the Granlund for Shinkaruk trade, but it's at least debatable. But, when you make so many trades like this, one of them is bound to work out okay. For a manager who's trademark in the league is supposed to be an eye for talent, the all these misses piling up is very alarming. I'm talking about his "age gap" players acquired through trade: Vey, Pedan, Clendening, Baerstchi, Etem, Granlund.

...He may actually be rolling with lower odds than what you get from the actual draft picks traded.
 
RandV said:
I don't think I'll ever be a fan of the Granlund for Shinkaruk trade, but it's at least debatable. But, when you make so many trades like this, one of them is bound to work out okay. For a manager who's trademark in the league is supposed to be an eye for talent, the all these misses piling up is very alarming. I'm talking about his "age gap" players acquired through trade: Vey, Pedan, Clendening, Baerstchi, Etem, Granlund.

...He may actually be rolling with lower odds than what you get from the actual draft picks traded.
Click to expand...

If they had league average pro scouting instead of league worst, they also might hit on a lot more trades. As it is, they rob their supposed strength in amatuer scouting to place bets on horrific pro scouting and then compound that with comical negotiating skills.
 
Why are Benning and Linden refusing to pick people of waivers?

Etem, Griffith & Puempel would be better than Chaput, Megna & Labate. Plus theh comets would look a hell of a lot better.

Its so weird do they know that they are aloud to pick players of waivers?

And no none of Etem, Griffith or Puempel are great players but they are better tahn the crap we are playing right now. Hopefully Labate proves me wrong.
 
The Etem one is especially strange since, like him or not, management liked him enough to trade for him ten months ago, and then sign him to a one-way deal five months ago. Now they don't think he's good enough to help their train wreck of a team as a free acquisition on that same contract they were happy to sign in June.
 
iFan said:
How can you be close to getting him, yet walking away cause the price was way too high? That doesn't sounds close to me.
Click to expand...

To clarify what I meant:

In the article it's mentioned Weisbrod was on the scouting list and Friedman/others were watching the situation carefully. They looked at Kane/add-ons and then balked at the price when approaching Murray.

So they were close enough to get everyone talking about it and have Weisbrod present only to walk off instead of doing it. Close enough to have me worried :laugh:
 
D Sedin H Sedin L Eriksson
T Konecny B Horvat W Nylander/ N Ehlers
A Burrows N Bonino R Vrbata
M Tkachuk J McCann J Hansen

C Tanev
A Edler
B Hutton
D Hamhuis
G Forsling
B Montour
N Tryamkin
L Sbisa
A Biega

J Markstrom
E Lack

vs

D Sedin H Sedin B Sutter
S Baertschi B Horvat J Hansen
A Burrows M Granlund L Eriksson
J Megna/M Chaput B Gaunce D Dorsett/ J Skille

C Tanev
A Edler
B Hutton
E Gudbranson
N Tryamkin
L Sbisa
A Biega

R Miller
J Markstrom
 
Cancuks said:
D Sedin H Sedin L Eriksson
T Konecny B Horvat W Nylander/ N Ehlers
A Burrows N Bonino R Vrbata
M Tkachuk J McCann J Hansen

C Tanev
A Edler
B Hutton
D Hamhuis
G Forsling
B Montour
N Tryamkin
L Sbisa
A Biega

J Markstrom
E Lack

vs

D Sedin H Sedin B Sutter
S Baertschi B Horvat J Hansen
A Burrows M Granlund L Eriksson
J Megna/M Chaput B Gaunce D Dorsett/ J Skille

C Tanev
A Edler
B Hutton
E Gudbranson
N Tryamkin
L Sbisa
A Biega

R Miller
J Markstrom
Click to expand...

That second line of Konecny-Horvat-Nylander/Ehlers would be fun to watch

Haven't done the math but team 1 would probably cost a lot less too right? :cry:
 
BloatedGuppy said:
It's just calling a spade a spade.
Click to expand...

hey guys the house is on fire

ok. should we stop the guy from pouring gasoline on it?

FIRST: please acknowledge that the house has been on fire for a while now. next, while im not defending the guy spreading the fire, its important to understand that he arrived at this house not five and not one, but two years ago. furthermore,
 
nothing to say, of course, about the flawless analogy of "burning down a house". definitely not straining to complicate a simple issue
 
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