Post-Game Talk: Canucks lose 2-0; Best player? Empty net

[bsjezz]

it's amazing that we are suddenly 'bottom 5 in the league,' even though we've just gone through our lowest point in terms of injuries - having traded for defensive depth but not recieving it until tomorrow - and coaching, with the head coach suspended for half of the calender year thus far... yet we're still within three points of los angeles, third in the division, with a game in hand.

i wonder where that puts the sixteen teams who've got even less points than us?

 

[Johnny Canucker]

Serious question,

is it possible Torts gets fired before next year?

 

[Drop the Sopel]

How do all the top players fade at once? I have yet to see a sufficient reason why this has occurred.

A 1 month slide isn't enough for me to from re-tool to rebuild.

There are a lot of reasons - they're getting older, some of them are banged up, Burrows was going to struggle coming off injury, Kesler is an incocnsistent 5 on 5 producer, the backend isn't very skilled, the competition has gotten tougher, confidence is down etc...

I don't think you throw in the towel because of a 1 month slide. I think you accept it's over for this group because they haven't been able to keep their head above water over a 100+ game sample size.

I would be scared to see the team's goal differential had they received a .910SV% over the last 2 seasons.

 

[Bleach Clean]

They haven't been fading all at once. Kesler and Henrik are still going. Daniel hasn't been the same since the Keith elbow.

Kesler on pace for 53 points. Henrik for 59.

Everyone is lower than perhaps where they should be. Daniel's goalscoring has went south, but has maintained a points pace with Henrik.

 

[Drop the Sopel]

A full rebuild would mean the Sedins, Kesler, Burrows and Hamhuis are leaving. Does this team go from being 3rd in the west last year, to full rebuild, in a matter of 50 games? I say no. Not before a re-tool is first tried.

No re-build see's every core player traded. You still need to reach the cap floor and ice a team.

3rd in the West is deceiving. The Canucks had the 14th best goal differential in the NHL last season - with an elite goalie in Cory Schneider. IMO 14th better illustrates where they were last season in relation to their peers, then their 7th place finish playing in the brutal NW division.

The Canucks were an average club last season and are struggling to stay at that position right now. Their 18th ranking in terms of goal differential being an obvious indicator of that.

 

[bsjezz]

Serious question,

is it possible Torts gets fired before next year?

very unlikely, but a man can dream!

 

[vanarchy]

Serious question,

is it possible Torts gets fired before next year?

I don't think so. Torts needs to be given more time.

I in no way look down on the AV/Torts swap. Nucks needed this. The team is in shambles but he's not problem.

 

[Bleach Clean]

There are a lot of reasons - they're getting older, some of them are banged up, Burrows was going to struggle coming off injury, Kesler is an incocnsistent 5 on 5 producer, the backend isn't very skilled, the competition has gotten tougher, confidence is down etc...

I don't think you throw in the towel because of a 1 month slide. I think you accept it's over for this group because they haven't been able to keep their head above water over a 100+ game sample size.

I would be scared to see the team's goal differential had they received a .910SV% over the last 2 seasons.

Who in the core group hasn't been able to keep their head above water for 100+ games? Daniel had 40 in 47 last year, Henrik 45 in 48. Burrows was still 24/47 last year...

So about the bolded reasons above, these things all conspired to have the core behave as they have this year. What you are saying is that these reasons will persist, and the core will continue to perform commensurate to those factors. The resulting performance will continue. But what if those players aren't banged up, not coming off injury, are on the high end of their inconsistency? What about when they are supplemented by talent? Confidence is up? Etc... Still a rebuild?

If multiple factors have to come together for people to give up on this group, which it seems you have, then I would say that turning some of those factors will induce a different take. Like what does this team look like with a bit of confidence, Burrows completely over his injury and a young player brought in by a Dman trade?

 

[Bleach Clean]

No re-build see's every core player traded. You still need to reach the cap floor and ice a team.

3rd in the West is deceiving. The Canucks had the 14th best goal differential in the NHL last season - with an elite goalie in Cory Schneider. IMO 14th better illustrates where they were last season in relation to their peers, then their 7th place finish playing in the brutal NW division.

The Canucks were an average club last season and are struggling to stay at that position right now. Their 18th ranking in terms of goal differential being an obvious indicator of that.

They had a better GF than SJ last year...

Also, the NW crutch has been debated endlessly. I don't buy it, as other teams were more successful against the NW than the Canucks have been.

To me, the 14th best goal differential has more to do with the net gains of playing defensive hockey, vs. opening things up and trading chances. There's only so much room to go in the direction of preventing goals - while there's risk+reward in trying to open the game up, giving up more chances, while getting more the other way. More room to go.

Anyway, I'm against the rebuild. Difference of opinion here.

 

[me2]

No re-build see's every core player traded. You still need to reach the cap floor and ice a team.

3rd in the West is deceiving. The Canucks had the 14th best goal differential in the NHL last season - with an elite goalie in Cory Schneider. IMO 14th better illustrates where they were last season in relation to their peers, then their 7th place finish playing in the brutal NW division.

The Canucks were an average club last season and are struggling to stay at that position right now. Their 18th ranking in terms of goal differential being an obvious indicator of that.

12-13 includes games they tanked while resting up before the playoffs especially the 7-2 joke game against the Oilers where Henrik played 22 seconds total time just to keep the streak alive and the 1/2 assed 3-1 against the Ducks before it. -5 different from the Oilers game right there, a game they would normally win by 2 or 3. When you are talking the difference between top 10 and 14th being beating Edmonton if they were playing seriously it's hardly a big deal.

They would have been 5-7th in defense for the year if they played that game normally. Goals for is a much bigger issue.

 

[me2]

Kesler on pace for 53 points. Henrik for 59.

Everyone is lower than perhaps where they should be. Daniel's goalscoring has went south, but has maintained a points pace with Henrik.

PP is killing their production, they'd be in the 70s if it was working.

 

[LickTheEnvelope]

They had a better GF than SJ last year...

Also, the NW crutch has been debated endlessly. I don't buy it, as other teams were more successful against the NW than the Canucks have been.

To me, the 14th best goal differential has more to do with the net gains of playing defensive hockey, vs. opening things up and trading chances. There's only so much room to go in the direction of preventing goals - while there's risk+reward in trying to open the game up, giving up more chances, while getting more the other way. More room to go.

Anyway, I'm against the rebuild. Difference of opinion here.

I'm against a rebuild until next season. If the core is playing like this next season then you start to get into the 'too old' territory the year after to get any value back.

 

[Virtanen18]

True, But Kesler doesn't look bad, whereas Daniel looks like he forgot what the word "hockey" even means.

True. Still think Kes needs to play less though. Ferraro said it just the other day: for the physical, high intensity game he usually plays, it is just too much to ask of the body for 23 minutes on ice.

 

[Orca Smash]

12-13 includes games they tanked while resting up before the playoffs especially the 7-2 joke game against the Oilers where Henrik played 22 seconds total time just to keep the streak alive and the 1/2 assed 3-1 against the Ducks before it. -5 different from the Oilers game right there, a game they would normally win by 2 or 3. When you are talking the difference between top 10 and 14th being beating Edmonton if they were playing seriously it's hardly a big deal.

They would have been 5-7th in defense for the year if they played that game normally. Goals for is a much bigger issue.

The oilers lit us up last season I believe in march with a fully healthy line up 4-0 with cory getting yanked. The ducks also didnt play getzlaf that game either...

You never know when it comes to games, you cant go back and say well this game should not count and we would have won it. Its entirely possible even if henrik did play and the team was trying they still may have overlooked the oilers before playoffs, or had an off night. The defense in front of lou was especially awful and to blame in that last game of the season and he was working hard and trying since he had not seen the net much.

As far as it not being a big deal you may be right but we cant assume what may have been either.

 

[Hodgy]

Who in the core group hasn't been able to keep their head above water for 100+ games? Daniel had 40 in 47 last year, Henrik 45 in 48. Burrows was still 24/47 last year...

So about the bolded reasons above, these things all conspired to have the core behave as they have this year. What you are saying is that these reasons will persist, and the core will continue to perform commensurate to those factors. The resulting performance will continue. But what if those players aren't banged up, not coming off injury, are on the high end of their inconsistency? What about when they are supplemented by talent? Confidence is up? Etc... Still a rebuild?

If multiple factors have to come together for people to give up on this group, which it seems you have, then I would say that turning some of those factors will induce a different take. Like what does this team look like with a bit of confidence, Burrows completely over his injury and a young player brought in by a Dman trade?

Do you now accept that this team isn't a top 10 team? That this team wasn't a top ten team earlier in the year and that the advanced statistics that you relied on were not accurate/predictive.

*I say this respectfully, and I don't want to get into a debate about advanced statistics. I think we can both appreciate their value and the fact that they are not always indicative of a team's ability.

 

[Vankiller Whale]

PP is killing their production, they'd be in the 70s if it was working.

The Sedins are on pace for 36 and 40 ES points this year. Being generous, if you take their PP point pace from 2011-2012, when we had a top-5 PP in the league, that still only puts them in the mid-60s.

 

[yoss]

 

[Zanon]

How does a team go from winning back-to-back President's Trophies with a Game 7 SCF appearance in between to such a mediocre team in only 2 years.

 

[EpochLink]

Our PP is awful and we've been asking for scoring help since the Finals...our PP has been one of our strengths for a long stretch of time and now look at it..utter disgrace..

Gillis can't use the lockout last year as an excuse, this year he has no excuses..

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

How do all the top players fade at once? I have yet to see a sufficient reason why this has occurred. Other than perhaps playing them exhaustion.

A 1 month slide isn't enough for me to from re-tool to rebuild. Just like when everyone stayed cautious after a great DEC. Changes will be made first. Changes and a period of evaluation. Things will be tried before a full rebuild is even considered IMO.

I completely agree. I don't think a mass sell off right now is a wise decision seeing as most of our assets are in the midst of an awful stretch. I'd bank on them regaining form (at least somewhat) and recovering more value next season. Trading players at their lowest value in years for tweeners, underwhelming prospects and middling picks isn't going to improve the team now or in the future, imo.

I think you sell off an asset at the deadline if the value is right. If not- do what everyone was comfortable with a few months ago and roll into the playoffs (if we get in) with what we have. Make a deal at the draft to improve the team, where Gillis seems to be able to get work done.

 

[vanuck]

Tell you what guys... I'll keep saying that goaltending is the problem and eventually when the goalies let in softies I'll re appear and tell everyone how I was wise.

 

[ionicbluebird]

Who in the core group hasn't been able to keep their head above water for 100+ games? Daniel had 40 in 47 last year, Henrik 45 in 48. Burrows was still 24/47 last year...

So about the bolded reasons above, these things all conspired to have the core behave as they have this year. What you are saying is that these reasons will persist, and the core will continue to perform commensurate to those factors. The resulting performance will continue. But what if those players aren't banged up, not coming off injury, are on the high end of their inconsistency? What about when they are supplemented by talent? Confidence is up? Etc... Still a rebuild?

If multiple factors have to come together for people to give up on this group, which it seems you have, then I would say that turning some of those factors will induce a different take. Like what does this team look like with a bit of confidence, Burrows completely over his injury and a young player brought in by a Dman trade?

The difference is coaching. The Sedins were getting more offensive zone starts under AV. Which I still think Torts should implement.

Oh and the PP was better.

 

[Intangibos]

I feel like the twins can't cycle like they used to, or just aren't. They used to cycle forever until they found a scoring opportunity, even if that meant cycling for 2 minutes. Now they pass it a few times along the boards and take a weak shot that either goes wide, hits the logo or gets blocked. Not sure if I'm imagining it, or it's because they want to shoot more or something else.

 

[604]

I feel like the twins can't cycle like they used to, or just aren't. They used to cycle forever until they found a scoring opportunity, even if that meant cycling for 2 minutes. Now they pass it a few times along the boards and take a weak shot that either goes wide, hits the logo or gets blocked. Not sure if I'm imagining it, or it's because they want to shoot more or something else.

I just don't think they have the strength to win board battles any more.

They never used to lose a puck in the corner, they get pushed off the puck all the time now.

 

[Intangibos]

I just don't think they have the strength to win board battles any more.

They never used to lose a puck in the corner, they get pushed off the puck all the time now.

They may lose more frequently, but they're still better along the boards than many players. That may be a factor but I don't think they are awful at winning puck battles now.