Value of: Canucks-Flyers: Sean Couturier to Vancouver
- Thread starter Horse McHindu
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FatTugboatFlahr
Registered User
I don't see a deal here. Couturier is turning into the perfect 2nd line center for Philly, who can win his matchups while giving Giroux easier minutes, and let the PP do it's thing. The team is build to start contending as their young defensemen improve, so they don't need picks or prospects while leaving a hole at 2C. That would mean they'd either need Sedin, which makes no sense for many reasons, or Horvat, which is mostly a lateral move for both clubs. Couturier is better now, and it's arguable if Horvat will ever be better. Tanev might make some sense if Philly had someone who could move to 2C, but again, they're filled with promising young defensemen as well.
Ace of Hades
#Demko4Vezina
@ Bold, terrible joke. Right now I peg them to be on the same tier, with Horvat moving ahead of him after the end of this year if the pace continues.
(Horvat already eclipssed Couturier point wise last year, I peg them even right now mainly because Couturier is better defensively, but if the pace does continue, Horvat moves ahead of him)
I think it's important to mention that Horvat scored 40 points in 82 games compared to Couturier's 39 in 63. Couturier paced for 51 points last year, and even if he didn't maintain that pace, it would be extremely unlikely for him to go completely scoreless had he remained healthy in those 19 games.
Breakers
Make Mirrored Visors Legal Again
He had 1 more point in 19 more games last year. Horvat has shown flashes of scoring at a low-end first liner/high-end second liner, but hasn't been able to maintain it. Even this year, he's only at a 49 point pace through 27 games, which is less than Couturier's 51 point pace last year. Their P/60 at even strength are both 1.58 over the last three years including this one. Couturier plays on a better team, but both have had weak linemates for the majority of the time, and Couturier has played some of the hardest minutes in the league. Both are a little underrated offensively based on their point totals, but they're probably roughly equal offensively. The difference is Couturier plays Selke level defense, and Horvat is 3 years younger, so might have higher upside offensively. Couts certainly doesn't make Horvat look like an AHL player, but he's better right now.
Ace of Hades
#Demko4Vezina
Who were Couturier's regular linemates last year?
Right now it's evident Horvat has been the better player this season.
His most common wingers from Behind the Net:
- MICHAELRAFFL 44.6%
- WAYNESIMMONDS 38.8%
- MATTREAD 33.1%
- JAKUBVORACEK 25.7%
- BRAYDENSCHENN 22.5%
- SAMGAGNER 22.4%
It's pretty much a mixed bag as the Flyers shuffled lines pretty frequently last season. You have some really good ones (Simmonds, last year's Schenn, and Voracek). You also have some bad ones (last year's versions of Gagner and Read).
And while Horvat did have a better start production wise, it doesn't account for Couturier being elite defensively. Like Bergeron, Couturier had some pretty bad puck luck to start the season despite playing well.
Juicy Pop
Tank Commander Fedotov
The three most common were Raffl [380], Simmonds [340] and Read [290], but he also had a revolving door with Schenn, Gagner and Voracek [during that initial 16 game struggle] who all logged ~200 minutes on his wings.
It's not evident if all you care to look at is counting stats, but Couturier's presence is sorely missed. He drives play about as well as anyone on this team outside of Voracek and Konecny's production has suffered in his absence.
Ace of Hades
#Demko4Vezina
Fair enough and thanks for the answers to my question both of you. We can all agree that Couturier definitely does not make Horvat look like an Ahler since that's obviously absurd.
Yeah, that post was the worst kind of hyperbole. Flyers fans would love to have Horvat.
clunk
Registered User
We can just use our first this season or next season and likely draft a center that will turn out better than Couturier rather than overpay for the Flyers' overrated player.
I'm one Flyer fan who doesn't overrate Couturier.
He has stretches where he's the most solid guy on the ice at both ends, or at least certainly the defensive end.
But this year, and at times in prior years, he has looked soft, tentative and ineffective offensively. He's also not so great on the dot.
He can be an excellent 3C on a contending team. I think he's a stretch 2C, relatively decent numbers the past couple years notwithstanding. He does not have 1C upside in my opinion.
If Horvat was on offer, I'd explore it.
He has stretches where he's the most solid guy on the ice at both ends, or at least certainly the defensive end.
But this year, and at times in prior years, he has looked soft, tentative and ineffective offensively. He's also not so great on the dot.
He can be an excellent 3C on a contending team. I think he's a stretch 2C, relatively decent numbers the past couple years notwithstanding. He does not have 1C upside in my opinion.
If Horvat was on offer, I'd explore it.
Juicy Pop
Tank Commander Fedotov
NitHeel
Kimmo Forever
clunk
Registered User
Good luck with all that...we're done here, I suppose.
"We want your best guy but we dont want to offer anything of value"
Yeah, definitely not overrated... I guess Sean Couturier is better than Claude Giroux..
Mathew Barzal
Walk It Like I Tocchet
It's annoyed me over the years how defensive (or aggressive, really) Flyers fans are about Couturier. And I gotta say it's the most knowledgeable ones who love him the most.
He draws tough assignments and is a cerebral player, which nobody should discount. And his even strength numbers are still good.
But what bothers me is the simplest stuff - his skating is average at best and hasn't really improved; he gets beat along the boards a little more than you'd like a Selke candidate to be; his passing in the offensive zone is below average.
It's strange how after a tough game we'll hear about how young he still is and so forth. Guy has played almost 400 games (including playoffs)! And he's had a ton of injuries. Lots of miles on him already.
He draws tough assignments and is a cerebral player, which nobody should discount. And his even strength numbers are still good.
But what bothers me is the simplest stuff - his skating is average at best and hasn't really improved; he gets beat along the boards a little more than you'd like a Selke candidate to be; his passing in the offensive zone is below average.
It's strange how after a tough game we'll hear about how young he still is and so forth. Guy has played almost 400 games (including playoffs)! And he's had a ton of injuries. Lots of miles on him already.
Juicy Pop
Tank Commander Fedotov
Ace of Hades
#Demko4Vezina
Juicy Pop
Tank Commander Fedotov
I love these threads.
"We want your player but you can't have any of our good prospects!"
"What, you think he's worth that much?"
"Well, we didn't want him anyway. He's terrible and we have a similar player that's younger, cheaper and has far more upside, LOL."
"We want your player but you can't have any of our good prospects!"
"What, you think he's worth that much?"
"Well, we didn't want him anyway. He's terrible and we have a similar player that's younger, cheaper and has far more upside, LOL."
