Friedman: Canes to buyout Kotkaniemi?

[LuLover96]

Yet that is still true


as a counterpoint to your uninformed nonsense opinion i watched every game Kotkaniemi played this year. not once in any situation did i think "oh shit Miller is a better center on the ice". his offense disappeared in the second half of the seasons, but the guy is a competent 2-way defender in any situation who can transition the puck.

See how good personal opinions are the best way to support an argument?

That’s like saying Blueger is better than Aho. I don’t care what your reasoning is, it’s wrong.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

That’s like saying Blueger is better than Aho. I don’t care what your reasoning is, it’s wrong.

Which is exactly the point. 1 of us has stats the other has just the eye test. The eye test, is “just wrong” because we can “just say it is.” But thanks for proving the point

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

Which is exactly the point. 1 of us has stats the other has just the eye test. The eye test, is “just wrong” because we can “just say it is.” But thanks for proving the point

So one of you has the magical beans, and the other one actually watches the game ?

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

So one of you has the magical beans, and the other one actually watches the game ?

Watching the game through a homer lense isn’t any actual measure to a player’s play. 2 out of the last 3 years Hronek has been badly rated on defense. If we even use the eye test, hronek looked well overmatched in the playoffs. He couldn’t handle long cycles in his zone or big forwards in front of the net.

 

[LuLover96]

Which is exactly the point. 1 of us has stats the other has just the eye test. The eye test, is “just wrong” because we can “just say it is.” But thanks for proving the point

We shouldn't have to prove Teddy Blueger is a lesser player than Sebastian Aho because it's an incredibly large gap. At that point you're no longer having a productive conversation because you're arguing and complaining for the sake of arguing and complaining. Comparing players is reasonable when they're in the same stratosphere, and JT/KK are not. JT is a star, KK is a middle 6 forward at best. Why waste energy on being this wrong?

Truth be told, I think KK would be a great fit under Tocchet. I don't mean to disparage him as a player because I would love to acquire him in a Necas/Hronek/Mikheyev/KK deal, but to try and create a KK vs Miller debate is disingenuous to who both of those players are.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

We shouldn't have to prove Teddy Blueger is a lesser player than Sebastian Aho because it's an incredibly large gap. At that point you're no longer having a productive conversation because you're arguing and complaining for the sake of arguing and complaining. Comparing players is reasonable when they're in the same stratosphere, and JT/KK are not. JT is a star, KK is a middle 6 forward at best. Why waste energy on being this wrong?

Truth be told, I think KK would be a great fit under Tocchet. I don't mean to disparage him as a player because I would love to acquire him in a Necas/Hronek/Mikheyev/KK deal, but to try and create a KK vs Miller debate is disingenuous to who both of those players are.

Lol, you’re missing the point. But thanks. Im done here.

 

[krutovsdonut]

The trouble is that your opinion is just an eye test that is nearly meaningless. The best thing is you continue to push. Lol. Its the best.

your response indicates confusion about reality and your place in it. you're the guy with opinions here. wonderful glorious hot take opinions like "kotkaniemi is a better centre than jt miller" and "hronek is the antithesis of a shutdown defender". you've been given the chance to back away from them and instead you've tripled down on them.

you've dug your own grave. you've committed to absurd indefensible positions. you own them.

i am just the one laughing at how bad your opinions are and how you think you can wriggle your way out of expressing those terrible opinions instead of being reminded of them every single time i see you try and talk shit about a canuck player for all time. and i don't need to back up my laughter at all. it's on you buddy. he who asserts must prove. so far you've done nothing to back your opinions up. my eye test is to mock your opinion not refute what needs no refuting. and it trumps your bare affirmative statements. if you're too lazy to actually make your own argument, as seems to be the case, maybe start a thread in the main board titled "kotkaniemi is a better centre than jt miller and hronek is the antithesis of a shutdown defenceman ainec" and try to get others to make your case for you. go for it. you could be a legend. one way or another.

Lol, you’re missing the point. But thanks. Im done here.

you're well done. like a steak cooked in a frying pan for 45 minutes.

 

[LuLover96]

your response indicates confusion about reality and your place in it. you're the guy with opinions here. wonderful glorious hot take opinions like "kotkaniemi is a better centre than jt miller" and "hronek is the antithesis of a shutdown defender". you've been given the chance to back away from them and instead you've tripled down on them.

you've dug your own grave. you've committed to absurd indefensible positions. you own them.

i am just the one laughing at how bad your opinions are and how you think you can wriggle your way out of expressing those terrible opinions instead of being reminded of them every single time i see you try and talk shit about a canuck player for all time. and i don't need to back up my laughter at all. it's on you buddy. he who asserts must prove. so far you've done nothing to back your opinions up. my eye test is to mock your opinion not refute what needs no refuting. and it trumps your bare affirmative statements. if you're too lazy to actually make your own argument, as seems to be the case, maybe start a thread in the main board titled "kotkaniemi is a better centre than jt miller and hronek is the antithesis of a shutdown defenceman ainec" and try to get others to make your case for you. go for it. you could be a legend. one way or another.


you're well done. like a steak cooked in a frying pan for 45 minutes.

Well said. If he can't back up his opinions but gets grumpy when people refute them then there's no point having a conversation with the man. Like the middle schooler who still says "ur mom gae lol"

 

[mattihp]

Trade with retention for Kakko

 

[Maurice of Orange]

I can’t see the Canes buying out Jesperi Kotkaniemi’s contract over 12 seasons.

Then again it would only cost just over $10mil to buyout Kotkaniemi‘s contract instead of keeping Jesperi’s just over $30mil over the life of the contract.

A trade would be the most likely option but the Canes would still see some kinda return financially which isn’t up Dondon’s alley.

 

[JohnHodgson]

Some Canucks fans are just as impossible.

Canes fans have said time and time again, that our owner has insisted that he's not signing guys in their late 20s, early 30s to long term, high dollar deals. He avoids it like the plague.

We don't all agree with that approach, but we accept that until he does, most of us don't see it happening and thus won't entertain it in a trade proposal. That was the real issue with any JTM trade that has been proposed some Vancouver fans ignore this reality. We kept saying that any trade before JTM was re-signed meant to us that it was a rental deal, as we didn't have any confidence the Canes management would re-sign him based on how they operate. Once he signed his long term deal, we didn't think the ownership would take on a contract like that for a player his age.

Maybe that will change with Guentzel or Skjei or Pesce this year, or with Slavin next year, but he's been consistent on that front since 2017. Until he changes his MO, a trade for someone like JTM isn't realistic, yet many Vancouver fans disregard that.

Clearly value wise, JTM is a way better player than KK (who I wasn't a fan of acquiring or signing), a late 1st and Morrow, it was more about the contract and cap structure given how our owner operates.

That’s fair and I did see that sentiment. I also saw most fans spout those garbage responses. They are not mutually exclusive.

Canes fans were acting like JTM was trash and KK was some up and coming stud #2 center just last year.

 

[JohnHodgson]

Idiotic signing to begin with. That money could have been much better spent.

Canes have one of the smartest management groups but the KK fiasco has to go down as one of the worst sequence of events in recent history.

Cup contending team blows assets on a struggling young player at a staggering 6M offersheet, when they should have parlayed those assets to compete for a Cup

Then they unnecessarily sign him to a massive 8 year deal at a near 5M cap hit.

Then they decide not to re-sign Trochek (in partial) thinking KK might be able to take the next step to be 2C.

And now Trochek with 8 points in 6 games to eliminate the Canes.

Full circle moment.

 

[SlavinAway]

That’s fair and I did see that sentiment. I also saw most fans spout those garbage responses. They are not mutually exclusive.

Canes fans were acting like JTM was trash and KK was some up and coming stud #2 center just last year.

You're not wrong that some of those opinions were posted but I think most of the pushback from Canes fans was due to Miller's contract. No doubt he is the better player now though KK had a promising 2023 calendar year that had many of us hoping he was turning the corner.

Canes have one of the smartest management groups but the KK fiasco has to go down as one of the worst sequence of events in recent history.

Cup contending team blows assets on a struggling young player at a staggering 6M offersheet, when they should have parlayed those assets to compete for a Cup

Then they unnecessarily sign him to a massive 8 year deal at a near 5M cap hit.

Then they decide not to re-sign Trochek (in partial) thinking KK might be able to take the next step to be 2C.

And now Trochek with 8 points in 6 games to eliminate the Canes.

Full circle moment.

Rumor from multiple sources was that Tro wasn't willing to sign that contract in CAR; IMO he's much more of an impact player for NYR than he was for us too.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

The thought process behind the offer sheet was fine. They didn’t sign him to that on Day 1 of free agency, which gets forgotten about frequently. It was late in the Summer and they had substantial cap space after other plans (Saad) fell through. An expected late 1st and 3rd was a modest risk gamble for a young center with a high draft pedigree. I bet they don’t regret that part of it.

Maybe they don’t do 8 years in hindsight. That was something they prioritized at the time; they tried to get max term from Aho and were successful with Svechnikov. This is the downside risk of chasing potential long-term surplus value.

New York Trocheck ≠ Carolina Trocheck. He had 15 points, with only 9 coming at EV, in 31 playoff games with the Canes. To put that into perspective, Kotkaniemi 2023 and Drury 2024, his respective replacements, combined for 10 EVPs in 26 games over the past 2 playoff runs.

 

[Dr Quincy]

Yet that is still true

When a take is so hot that it melts into your hand so that you can't let it go.

 

[behemolari]

Canes problem is NOT Kotkaniemi, buying him out wont fix anything.

 

[Ciao]

I'm enjoying this.

The whole situation derives from the owner's hubrus and spite.

 

[Nanuuk]

Okie-dokie then. Now for something entirely different.

To CAR
RD Rasmus Andersson, rights to LD Nikita Ohotiuk, 2024 3rd

To CGY
RW Martin Necas, C Jesperi Kothaniemi, 2024 2nd

Reasoning? Sunday morning and I'm bored so I thought I'd stimulate some more discussion.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Okie-dokie then. Now for something entirely different.

To CAR
RD Rasmus Andersson, rights to LD Nikita Ohotiuk, 2024 3rd

To CGY
RW Martin Necas, C Jesperi Kothaniemi, 2024 2nd

Reasoning? Sunday morning and I'm bored so I thought I'd stimulate some more discussion.

Dont love it or hate it. Could we get the rights to Kuznetsov instead? If not, I would live with this. But does Calgary?

 

[Blueline Bomber]

I'm enjoying this.

The whole situation derives from the owner's hubrus and spite.

Maybe partially. The team did try to trade for KK before making the offer sheet, so clearly they wanted the player. And it’s not entirely out of line to hope that a 20-year-old, former 3rd overall pick might find a renewed game after moving to a different organization. Especially in an organization like Carolina, who had a history of finding those diamonds in the rough (Nino Neiderrieter, for example)

So while the offer sheet came with a bit of pettiness and spite (hard to deny with the extra $20 thrown in), the primary factor seemed to be acquiring a player they thought would help their team at a relatively cheap cost. It obviously hasn’t worked out as planned, but that’s hockey.

 

[bleedgreen]

Once more time for the cheap seats. We tried to trade for Kk. Takes the revenge twist kind of out of it.

“Hey….we’re totally going to get revenge on you. Would you like to work out a trade first?”

Second Canes fans will come up with a lot of reasons why Trocheck wasn’t that good. He was a perfect fit. He played a lot like he’s played this playoffs. Wins a lot of boards battles, strong on the puck, great in the face of dots and he’s a righty that we’re still trying to replace so that all definitely hurts. We played him with a young Necas he didn’t click with (no one else would go on to do better), and the NY top six has a lot more talent and chemistry thus better production. He didn’t produce well in the playoff because we as a team don’t score much and teams buckle down on their approach and that year we didn’t score enough as a team. He’s playing for a better team, that’s the difference in points. There’s no difference in what the guy brings every night between now and then. The only real argument is whether or not he would’ve stayed. People are indicating he wouldn’t have, I heard some of both. That he wanted to go home to Pitts but ended up with the Rags but that was after he left. I could’ve sworn he said we didn’t really talk to him much. Doesn’t matter now.

 

[Nanuuk]

Dont love it or hate it. Could we get the rights to Kuznetsov instead? If not, I would live with this. But does Calgary?

I don't know about offering up Kuznetsov instead of Okotiuk. Might up the return from Carolina.

Yes, many Flames fans would want to hang me high for throwing Andersson's name out there. I think that with Calgary's current situation they could backfill at RD or acquire a UFA if need be. We'd be poorer for it. Or not.

Calgary would be taking on risk in both Necas (future contract) and Kotkaniemei (bad contract), but both fall into the age group Conroy wants to go with at forward.

Some would also say a trade like this would block up and comers such as Jacob Pelletier and Matt Coronato. I say there is nothing like competition. Let the best man win.

 

[mattihp]

Calling him KK is stupid, JK should be warranted.

Or if you want just his lastname, go with KN as the two parts of his last name is Kotka - Eagle and Niemi - Cape

 

[Maple Leaf]

Habs should take him

 

[Frank Drebin]

Once more time for the cheap seats. We tried to trade for Kk. Takes the revenge twist kind of out of it.

“Hey….we’re totally going to get revenge on you. Would you like to work out a trade first?”

Second Canes fans will come up with a lot of reasons why Trocheck wasn’t that good. He was a perfect fit. He played a lot like he’s played this playoffs. Wins a lot of boards battles, strong on the puck, great in the face of dots and he’s a righty that we’re still trying to replace so that all definitely hurts. We played him with a young Necas he didn’t click with (no one else would go on to do better), and the NY top six has a lot more talent and chemistry thus better production. He didn’t produce well in the playoff because we as a team don’t score much and teams buckle down on their approach and that year we didn’t score enough as a team. He’s playing for a better team, that’s the difference in points. There’s no difference in what the guy brings every night between now and then. The only real argument is whether or not he would’ve stayed. People are indicating he wouldn’t have, I heard some of both. That he wanted to go home to Pitts but ended up with the Rags but that was after he left. I could’ve sworn he said we didn’t really talk to him much. Doesn’t matter now.

The trade angle was simply posturing after the fact. Carolina may have made an "offer" for KK in a trade but it was likely the variety that gets you laughed off HFboards. With the bad blood between the teams any kind of good faith negotiation would be out the door. There were no attempts from the Hurricanes to "work out a trade". This was pretty much verified by Bergevin at the time.

There were no indications that KK was available that summer via trade. In fact it was pretty clear that he was looked upon to be a key cog in the upcoming season with the departure of Danault in the #2 spot.

The offersheet put a priority on damaging the Canadiens over improving the Hurricanes. There wasn't even a spot for KK when he was acquired.