GDT: cane rwing

[the halleJOKEL]

if gretzky wanted to score 90+ goals a year, he could've made that happen

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Gretzky was a better overall player. More hockey sense, more passing, and skating ability, etc. Ovie is a better raw scorer, but ALOT of his goals come on the PP from being left open just to stand there. There are memes ffs.

The thing is that teams game plan around stopping it, but can't.

Lots of things have changed. Do modern sticks and old goalie gear cancel each other out?

It's more than goalie gear. In 1985, here is the size of top 10 goalies (# wins).

Froese: 5'11" 176
Vanbiesbrouck: 5'8", 176
Barasso: 6'3", 201
Fuhr: 5'10", 210
Lemelin: 5'11", 170
Jensen: 5'10", 180
Liut: 6'2", 195
Moog: 5'8", 175
Malarchuk: 6'0, 185
Beaupre: 5'10, 172
*. Only 2 guys over 6' tall and 5 guys 5'10" and under.

Last years's top NHL goalies:
Vasilevsk: 6'3" 225lbs
Bobrovsky: 6'2", 182lbs
Saros: 5'11", 180
Markstrom: 6'6", 206
Kuemper: 6'5", 215
Shesterkin: 6'2", 181
Jarry: 6'2", 194
Demko: 6'4", 192
Talbot: 6'4", 196
Campbell: 6'2", 197
Ottenger: 6'5", 220
* every goalie but 1 over 6' tall and none 5'10" and under.

If these guys were all like Vlad from the bud light commercial that would be one thing but they are all phenomenal athletes, very quick and agile as well.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Lol I think he’s amazing. I’m not to downplay his accomplishments I just see it differently than you. We’ve both seen the greats through their careers, I have a hard time putting him up quite as high because he just isn’t the same kind of player to me. Yes he’s doing it in a different era, but I think the sticks have helped him. He perfected the art of cranking one timers with a light flex stick that has forgiveness on mishits, and the curve puts ridiculous english on it that fools goalies. Good for him that way. Yes he scored all the acrobatic goals and that was ALL him, but so many of his goals are the one timer on the pp that he switches his sticks for. They’re too whippy for him 5v5. He has accomplished something amazing and for it he deserves the all time recognition. I just have a limit with him and it’s not based in some bias.

I don't disagree with any of that, mainly with the "padding stats" notion. He's scoring today the same way he has throughout his career and helping his team win. That's not "Padding stats" IMO, but you may have a different definition.

 

[MinJaBen]

Ovie has been padding the stats for a long time. He wants the record. The stats he pads run along with winning games and the skill he has is the hardest thing to bring to the table so there’s no reason for him not to pad the stats.

Only thing I disagree with you here is, and this is entirely on the way I am reading it so it could just be me, but the use of the "padding the stats" you've been using seems a bit derogatory or diminishing. I can't see how the one stat in hockey which directly leads to winning (scoring more than the other team) can legitimately be seen as "padding the stats" in a bad way.

I wish we had a few more guys "padding" their goal stats this year.

I don't disagree with any of that, mainly with the "padding stats" notion. He's scoring today the same way he has throughout his career and helping his team win. That's not "Padding stats" IMO, but you may have a different definition.

Lol! Just beat me to it.

 

[tarheelhockey]

The thing is that teams game plan around stopping it, but can't.

It's more than goalie gear. In 1985, here is the size of top 10 goalies (# wins).

Froese: 5'11" 176
Vanbiesbrouck: 5'8", 176
Barasso: 6'3", 201
Fuhr: 5'10", 210
Lemelin: 5'11", 170
Jensen: 5'10", 180
Liut: 6'2", 195
Moog: 5'8", 175
Malarchuk: 6'0, 185
Beaupre: 5'10, 172
*. Only 2 guys over 6' tall and 5 guys 5'10" and under.

Last years's top NHL goalies:
Vasilevsk: 6'3" 225lbs
Bobrovsky: 6'2", 182lbs
Saros: 5'11", 180
Markstrom: 6'6", 206
Kuemper: 6'5", 215
Shesterkin: 6'2", 181
Jarry: 6'2", 194
Demko: 6'4", 192
Talbot: 6'4", 196
Campbell: 6'2", 197
Ottenger: 6'5", 220
* every goalie but 1 over 6' tall and none 5'10" and under.

If these guys were all like Vlad from the bud light commercial that would be one thing but they are all phenomenal athletes, very quick and agile as well.

The increase in goalie height is just another reflection of the gear, though. The reason tall goalies are in vogue is that they can cover the entire bottom of the net with their leg pads. That is possible because modern leg pads are specifically designed for that posture. 1980s pads weren't designed to allow for power slides, etc. It also helps to have masks and other padding which are designed for a goalie to spent half his time sliding around on his knees, taking hard shots right in the face and ribs.

Put Markstrom in Bob Froese's gear and you have a 6'6" guy playing standup in front of a 4'0" goal frame. It doesn't make any sense.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

This Ovechkon guy is pretty good.

I hear that Gratzky guy was also pretty good.

In a hundred years, they'll both be dead!

 

[bleedgreen]

Only thing I disagree with you here is, and this is entirely on the way I am reading it so it could just be me, but the use of the "padding the stats" you've been using seems a bit derogatory or diminishing. I can't see how the one stat in hockey which directly leads to winning (scoring more than the other team) can legitimately be seen as "padding the stats" in a bad way.

I wish we had a few more guys "padding" their goal stats this year.

I don’t disagree at all about what we could use more of. I don‘t mean it as derogatory. He scores goals. That’s what he does. He’ll score them when it doesn’t matter, and he’ll score them when it does. He’s always pumped to score them no matter the score. They are deferring to him intentionally for this purpose, and he embraces and I’m sure he appreciates it. Maybe that sounds derogatory but I actually have respect for it. That’s what I think padding the stats means. Regardless of the score or game situation they put him out there and feed him, presumably for the purpose of the record. They all buy in. It’s been going on for a long time. Ovie gets his touches on the pp no matter what, they always feed him. Of course that’s the best way to win but they do it when the game is in hand or out of reach and they’re still pumped in those situations because they’re meeting their secondary goal. Get Ovie his G’s. I think it’s awesome but I see it. I can’t not see it. They’re doing everything they can to make sure it happens. Is that worth diminishing? I dont mean to, I’m just saying what I’ve seen. It’s an amazing feat of consistency. He owes a lot of nice watches if he gets there, and at the same time if it wasn’t him at the end of all the passes and ice time the goals wouldn’t have gone in.

I don't disagree with any of that, mainly with the "padding stats" notion. He's scoring today the same way he has throughout his career and helping his team win. That's not "Padding stats" IMO, but you may have a different definition.

Same thoughts.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

The increase in goalie height is just another reflection of the gear, though. The reason tall goalies are in vogue is that they can cover the entire bottom of the net with their leg pads. That is possible because modern leg pads are specifically designed for that posture. 1980s pads weren't designed to allow for power slides, etc. It also helps to have masks and other padding which are designed for a goalie to spent half his time sliding around on his knees, taking hard shots right in the face and ribs.

Put Markstrom in Bob Froese's gear and you have a 6'6" guy playing standup in front of a 4'0" goal frame. It doesn't make any sense.

Partially true. But the chest/shoulder protectors and even pads have gotten bigger in a manner that is more than proportional to size.

To take it to the extreme, look at the gear this goalie is wearing the the Howe era. There's almost no shoulder pads and the chest protector is tiny. Compare that to what Vasilevsky wears even taking his size into account.

 

[Unsustainable]

if gretzky wanted to score 90+ goals a year, he could've made that happen

He showed restraint for the dignity of the sport in not doing so.

 

[raynman]

He showed restraint for the dignity of the sport in not doing so.

Those Canadians are so nice. The league needs more of them

 

[Svechhammer]

Our team defense is doing him some favors as well.

I mean yes, but that probably isn't a recent development for the team when you factor in how goalies have performed here vs elsewhere over the past 5 years or so.

That being said, Kooch is pretty darn good on his own, and is making the absurd saves when called upon, and if what we've seen of him so far is what he can consistently be here, the combination of goalie and defense we have here could be a bit of a cheat code. I think I read his regulation Save % is something like .940, that's crazy.

 

[AD Skinner]

If I'm remember correctly, didn't Alex also do all of this while having more seasons/games lost to work stopages, lockouts and obviously COVID shortened seasons.

He did- I think that adds up to around 2 season's worth of games which may have been enough for him to have caught and passed Gretzky by now. Just crazy

 

[Blueline Bomber]

I mean yes, but that probably isn't a recent development for the team when you factor in how goalies have performed here vs elsewhere over the past 5 years or so.

That being said, Kooch is pretty darn good on his own, and is making the absurd saves when called upon, and if what we've seen of him so far is what he can consistently be here, the combination of goalie and defense we have here could be a bit of a cheat code. I think I read his regulation Save % is something like .940, that's crazy.

Yeah, the defense helps, but we've also seen him absolutely lay out to prevent a goal when defensive breakdowns happen. And there have been some BAD breakdowns that he's had to deal with.

 

[hockeynjune]

Yeah, the defense helps, but we've also seen him absolutely lay out to prevent a goal when defensive breakdowns happen. And there have been some BAD breakdowns that he's had to deal with.

This...Would really like to see less of these

 

[Svechhammer]

Yeah, the defense helps, but we've also seen him absolutely lay out to prevent a goal when defensive breakdowns happen. And there have been some BAD breakdowns that he's had to deal with.

Yeah, his highlight reel from this year alone is absurd.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

LOL, for some reason I thought this was the "around the league" thread when I was responding to all the OVI stuff. Sorry about that as this is the wrong thread.

I don't want to jinx it, but I've been pretty down on our 3rd pairing all season and they've really seemed to have come around the last couple of games. Hopefully that play continues.

 

[The Faulker 27]

I honestly never thought I'd see the time a "modern" nhler broke Gretzky's goal record but here we are. Regardless of how it was/is done, the fact that it is very likely to be broken, is incredible.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Partially true. But the chest/shoulder protectors and even pads have gotten bigger in a manner that is more than proportional to size.

To take it to the extreme, look at the gear this goalie is wearing the the Howe era. There's almost no shoulder pads and the chest protector is tiny. Compare that to what Vasilevsky wears even taking his size into account.

Indeed, it says a lot that goalies of that era didn't particularly need large shoulder pads to play the game safely. Their shoulders were over the top of the net, so why try to block those pucks at all? Same with the mask, which is designed on an assumption that shots wouldn't be coming at an angle that could hit him in the throat. Today's goalies would literally die if they wore that mask in an NHL game, because they're sliding around on the ground taking point-blank shots that are coming off the ice at 45 degree angles.

Everything changed when they added landing gear to the leg pads. Instead of a shorter guy who can cover the corners with his hands and feet, you look for a taller guy who can block off angles with his shoulders and legs. So goal-scoring techniques change, and you get a different aesthetic to the game.

 

[Svechhammer]

I don't want to jinx it...

You just had to jinx it, didn't you

 

[Ole Gil]

I mean yes, but that probably isn't a recent development for the team when you factor in how goalies have performed here vs elsewhere over the past 5 years or so.

That being said, Kooch is pretty darn good on his own, and is making the absurd saves when called upon, and if what we've seen of him so far is what he can consistently be here, the combination of goalie and defense we have here could be a bit of a cheat code. I think I read his regulation Save % is something like .940, that's crazy.

The big difference for me, is that it doesn't feel like there's a lot of net to shoot at with Kooch.

When Nedjelkovic was having his crazy run, I never bought into it, because you could see all kinds of open net that people just weren't hitting. Maybe you get away with that for a little while, but eventually, NHL players are going to hit the big chunks of net you're giving them.

 

[Unsustainable]

Modern sports medicine is helping players go longer into their careers, along with not taking head shots.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

You just had to jinx it, didn't you

I wish I had the power.

 

[67 others]

Partially true. But the chest/shoulder protectors and even pads have gotten bigger in a manner that is more than proportional to size.

To take it to the extreme, look at the gear this goalie is wearing the the Howe era. There's almost no shoulder pads and the chest protector is tiny. Compare that to what Vasilevsky wears even taking his size into account.

There is more to it than even that. Those old leather pads soak up water and were twice as heavy in the 3rd period back then as they were at the start of the game

 

[MinJaBen]

I wish I had the power.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

In a hundred years, they'll both be dead!

And f***ing Crosby will still be playing for the Pens.