Canadian Government Freezing Hockey Canada Funding- (2018 Canada World Jr Team Alleged Sexual Assault)

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TopC0rner

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Feb 21, 2018
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The broader point that I was making is that not one of the question I asked could be answered by anyone in this thread. If I didn't word it clearly enough to each his own.
There is a difference between "don't know" and "don't wanna know".

The information gathered from the sworn affidavit of the victim is already a pretty good start. The gist of it is "Victim had dinner with a hockey player, drank a lot, went to his room, then had consensual sex with him. Kept drinking in his room, was pretty drunk, hockey player went out. Hockey player went out and came back with seven others, carrying their golf clubs (like... wth?), victim felt intimidated, went along, and at two times tried to leave but was prevented by the players, was asked to make videos saying she was sober and consenting, and then to shower before they let her leave."

The information about Hockey Canada's handling of the case, payout and sex assault fund is also known.

What we don't know is, who were the players, and obviously any sworn deposition from them.

Still, to disregard a sworn affidavit from the victim is either ignorance or bad faith.
 

Boonk

Registered User
Oct 10, 2017
2,967
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If my daughter put herself in that position I would be mad as hell at them for doing that and would give my daughter all the love she needed during this time. It doesn't excuse anyone but I would understand that both sides are at fault. I would hope through all the years of teaching my daughter what to and not do in life that she would be smart enough not put herself in that position.
Please never reproduce. My God your shit argument is awful
 

Stylizer1

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Jun 12, 2009
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There is a difference between "don't know" and "don't wanna know".

The information gathered from the sworn affidavit of the victim is already a pretty good start. The gist of it is "Victim had dinner with a hockey player, drank a lot, went to his room, then had consensual sex with him. Kept drinking in his room, was pretty drunk, hockey player went out. Hockey player went out and came back with seven others, carrying their golf clubs (like... wth?), victim felt intimidated, went along, and at two times tried to leave but was prevented by the players, was asked to make videos saying she was sober and consenting, and then to shower before they let her leave."

The information about Hockey Canada's handling of the case, payout and sex assault fund is also known.

What we don't know is, who were the players, and obviously any sworn deposition from them.

Still, to disregard a sworn affidavit from the victim is either ignorance or bad faith.
Is a sworn affidavit all that is needed for a conviction?

Does hockey Canada actually have a sex assault fund or is that a made up name by the media generalizing a fund used for different things in which the money came out of?

I only want to know the truth of what happened and that can't be established at this point even though most believe it can.
 

SirClintonPortis

ProudCapitalsTraitor
Mar 9, 2011
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The following is quite a disorganized batch of thoughts out of my head....(I'm quite busy and drowning with numerous legal matters of my own or my family's...covers the gamut...civil rights violations, insurance company misconduct, neighbors trespassing, victimization by criminals)....

The public in the Anglosphere has ideals about their own legal system that cannot be further from the actual truth.

Ignorance of common law basically part and parcel for every non-lawyer in the various English countries. Tort law exists because people were pieces of garbage and well...disputes arose and some resolution was achieved.
This ignorance can be beneficial to society, as some individuals who think they got away with murder via insanity still has to foot the bill for satisfying the torts such as intentional infliction of emotional distress, civil assault, civil battery, etc.

The principle of "innocent until proven guilty" is a opiate of words and a misnomer. It's "not guilty until proven guilty". The reason it exists is to curb the power of an organization with the natural incentive to breach rights. But for an individual, curbing your own power to avoid loss or damage is not necessarily wise or intelligent, and there is no heaven for your sacrifice in clinging to the ideals(such as forgiving and sticking with an abusive, possibly murderous partner).
Not all cases follow the same standard. The public thinks the most favorable light in the defendant is the only way of thinking. This is not so in all situations. Appeals are reviewed in the light most favorable to the plaintiff.

Proving a civil case, though easier...is not easy. The logical chain still requires a proper chain of syllogism, just not every minutiae has to exist. There is a possibility someone could cook up a story, but it requires some experience. Perhaps someone else's story was taken, either personally or through costly "research", or training in duplicitiy at home via parents.

Police can be professional, but in my experience, they usually have ulterior motives or even preconceptions to interpret the evidence in their favor, and there is no such thing as peer-review or other checks such as voting to really dispute the facts. As far as rights breaching goes, they very well can do it and will do it because their de facto training basically teaches them how to get away with stuff. Self-advocacy is quite neceesary for many cases.

Don't have the name off the top of my head, but one mom had to spend her life savings to get her son's murder exposed; this was featured on True Crime Daily.

Not in collective conciousness, but very much in the realm law, plenty of suits get filed for rights violations in which only nominal damages are sought, and sometimes...the government has to pay the attorneys for their fees in doing the litigation to advocate for rights.

Sometimes yes, courts records are not fully accessible to the public. I wanted to investigate a sex offender, but he was able to make his main record of conviction private.
 

hockeydog23

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Aug 21, 2020
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If my daughter put herself in that position I would be mad as hell at them for doing that and would give my daughter all the love she needed during this time. It doesn't excuse anyone but I would understand that both sides are at fault. I would hope through all the years of teaching my daughter what to and not do in life that she would be smart enough not put herself in that position.
Honestly, I feel sorry for your daughter if that's the kind of response you'd have... WTF!? She thought she was going home with one guy and ended up in a situation where she was surrounded by 8. Is she to blame for not anticipating his buddies were going to come join in? SMH.
 

TopC0rner

Registered User
Feb 21, 2018
722
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Is a sworn affidavit all that is needed for a conviction?

Does hockey Canada actually have a sex assault fund or is that a made up name by the media generalizing a fund used for different things in which the money came out of?

I only want to know the truth of what happened and that can't be established at this point even though most believe it can.

So, your card is that you only believe something if it passes the criminal court judgment (and standards) for a conviction?

I would argue that a civil suit is a more likely vehicle to get the truth (than a criminal court). On that end, when the other party would rather settle than go to court as Hockey Canada did, it's a pretty good indication, imo, that the victim's version is extremely convincing and plausible.

A sworn affidavit is also court binding and someone that would lie in one could face consequences, so it shouldn't be lightly discarded, which is what you're pretty much doing here, for some reason.
 

Tragedy

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Jan 10, 2013
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Regina, SK
So, your card is that you only believe something if it passes the criminal court judgment (and standards) for a conviction?

I would argue that a civil suit is a more likely vehicle to get the truth (than a criminal court). On that end, when the other party would rather settle than go to court as Hockey Canada did, it's a pretty good indication, imo, that the victim's version is extremely convincing and plausible.

A sworn affidavit is also court binding and someone that would lie in one could face consequences, so it shouldn't be lightly discarded, which is what you're pretty much doing here, for some reason.
Not to hop on the Stylizer side of this discussing but I think (and this is just my interpretation) what it comes down to is lack of evidence to get a criminal conviction (the lead detective said he didn't have reasonable grounds to believe a sexual assault had been committed) which is why this went through civil proceedings. The burden of proof is much lower in civil cases. I think between the videos and texts that the players lawyers could build enough of a reasonable doubt case that this was a consensual encounter in a criminal case.
 
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UrbanImpact

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Apr 12, 2021
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Is a sworn affidavit all that is needed for a conviction?

Does hockey Canada actually have a sex assault fund or is that a made up name by the media generalizing a fund used for different things in which the money came out of?

I only want to know the truth of what happened and that can't be established at this point even though most believe it can.


Its not a sex assault fund, its a fund they have been using as hush money for any kind of lawsuits against Hockey Canada, its members, players and staff over the last decade or so.

They were using registration money and other means to create a pool as payout funds so that they can say they werent using Govenrment funding or sponsorship money..
 

TopC0rner

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Feb 21, 2018
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Not to hop on the Stylizer side of this discussing but I think (and this is just my interpretation) what it comes down to is lack of evidence to get a criminal conviction (the lead detective said he didn't have reasonable grounds to believe a sexual assault had been committed) which is why this went through civil proceedings. The burden of proof is much lower in civil cases. I think between the videos and texts that the players lawyers could build enough of a reasonable doubt case that this was a consensual encounter in a criminal case.
Your premise is false though. The victim didn't know what to do at first, then hired a lawyer that's well-versed in sexual assaults, and was pretty much advised not to go through criminal court (for various reasons, and if you look into the case you can find exactly why).

Instead, the lawyer advised her to file a complaint, which she did. Without the victim being willing to testify in a criminal court, a conviction verdict couldn't be reached in court, so yeah, that didn't proceed forward. If you have paid attention to sexual assault trials in Canada, they haven't exactly been kind to victims, often injuring them further (just think about the Ghomeshi trial).

The majority of "true" sex assaults don't end up in criminal convictions. I don't know what number it is now, but it used to be that over 90% of sex assaults would go unpunished. So, setting the bar at a criminal conviction isn't exactly a search for the truth, and stands for an easy cop-out.
 

Jeune Poulet

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Oct 31, 2019
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Not to hop on the Stylizer side of this discussing but I think (and this is just my interpretation) what it comes down to is lack of evidence to get a criminal conviction
Looks more and more like it was a lack of motivation rather than a lack of evidence.

Hockey Canada's first "investigation" was really just a coverup. And most probably, they crashed London PD with big lawyers and made sure London police did the same.

Not anymore though. Thanks to the story breaking out in the media and getting massive interest, HC has been caught, have already apologized and promised another investigation. London police is also backtracking, putting their parody of an investigation "under review" to see if they might have "missed something". Some real Sherlocks, over there.
 

Zippity

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Feb 3, 2013
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Its not a sex assault fund, its a fund they have been using as hush money for any kind of lawsuits against Hockey Canada, its members, players and staff over the last decade or so.

They were using registration money and other means to create a pool as payout funds so that they can say they werent using Govenrment funding or sponsorship money..
I’m surprised they didn’t put in an insurance claim, with the family connections between HC and BFL
 
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Canadian Finn

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Feb 21, 2014
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BFL is just the broker. Extremely strange to hear them mentioned through these discussions. At least if you're going to be mentioning the insurer, mention the insurer ....

And I suspect the Insurance company will indeed be paying the settlement.

HC officials testified during the first hearing that the fund was for "uninsured liabilities", so their existing policy didn't cover this.

there is a fund for uninsured liabilities.

but abuse is an insured liability.
 
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PostBradMalone

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Mar 19, 2022
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BFL is just the broker. Extremely strange to hear them mentioned through these discussions. At least if you're going to be mentioning the insurer, mention the insurer ....

And I suspect the Insurance company will indeed be paying the settlement.



there is a fund for uninsured liabilities.

but abuse is an insured liability.

BFL's CEO is testifying next week in front of the Committee, so I imagine we'll find out then why it wasn't underwritten in this instance. I do agree that it's unusual for there not to be at least some sort of coverage.
 

Zippity

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Feb 3, 2013
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BFL is just the broker. Extremely strange to hear them mentioned through these discussions. At least if you're going to be mentioning the insurer, mention the insurer ....

And I suspect the Insurance company will indeed be paying the settlement.



there is a fund for uninsured liabilities.

but abuse is an insured liability.
Risk Management and Insurance Fees

Each Hockey Canada Participant pays into the Hockey Canada Insurance Program or has a fee paid on his/her behalf.

This fee covers the following:

  • liability insurance
  • accidental death and dismemberment insurance
  • major medical/dental insurance
  • risk management and administration
  • directors and officers liability insurance
  • sexual misconduct liability insurance
 

Canadian Finn

Oskee Wee Wee
Feb 21, 2014
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BFL's CEO is testifying next week in front of the Committee, so I imagine we'll find out then why it wasn't underwritten in this instance. I do agree that it's unusual for there not to be at least some sort of coverage.
again, BFL is just the broker.

They don't underwrite anything.

The CEO is testifying about the coverage purchased, purchased by the Insured (Hockey Canada), from an Insurer. But BFL is just the broker.

I get that their job is to advise the client, but they would have advised the client to purchase as much Liability limits as possible (likely $100M or so).

I assume the Insurer is Lloyds of London. But you never know. My employer was the insurer on the Maple Leafs abuse stuff (and we are a Canadian based Insurer).
 

PostBradMalone

Registered User
Mar 19, 2022
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6,256
Risk Management and Insurance Fees

Each Hockey Canada Participant pays into the Hockey Canada Insurance Program or has a fee paid on his/her behalf.

This fee covers the following:

  • liability insurance
  • accidental death and dismemberment insurance
  • major medical/dental insurance
  • risk management and administration
  • directors and officers liability insurance
  • sexual misconduct liability insurance

Except then HC itself released a statement Tuesday that specifically bucketed out sexual misconduct as not being covered by insurance:

a Hockey Canada spokesperson confirmed to Sportsnet the existence of the fund, which it said "covers a broad range of expenses related to safety, wellness and equity initiatives across our organization" and includes claims "not otherwise covered by insurance policies, including those related to physical injury, harassment, and sexual misconduct."

It's definitely confusing, which is why hearing from BFL should be enlightening.
 

Canadian Finn

Oskee Wee Wee
Feb 21, 2014
5,108
4,544
The Hammer
Risk Management and Insurance Fees

Each Hockey Canada Participant pays into the Hockey Canada Insurance Program or has a fee paid on his/her behalf.

This fee covers the following:

  • liability insurance
  • accidental death and dismemberment insurance
  • major medical/dental insurance
  • risk management and administration
  • directors and officers liability insurance
  • sexual misconduct liability insurance

That what I figured. Of course they had insurance for sexual abuse, likely to the tune of $100 million or more. I'm just curious who underwrote it. Much more interesting (and important) than the broker who sold it.
 

Zippity

Registered User
Feb 3, 2013
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Hockey Canada directors & officers liability insurance program (d&o):
Hockey Canada's D&O Insurance Program covers the directors, officers, staff members, employees, and volunteers of all Minor Hockey Associations, Junior Teams, Senior Teams, Members, and Major Junior Hockey Teams and Leagues for their exposure to legal action(s) and other claims arising from alleged wrongful acts which they are believed to have committed while acting in their hockey related capacities .
When coverage applies, the policy will provide for an insured's defence against the reported claim . If an insured is found liable for damages sustained by a claimant or plaintiff, coverage is provided for such damages subject to the terms and conditions of the applicable policy.
In the event that a director or officer should receive an action or demand letter against him/her the Member Office must be advised immediately so that proper steps can be taken to investigate and defend the case .

 

Zippity

Registered User
Feb 3, 2013
2,070
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BFL's CEO is testifying next week in front of the Committee, so I imagine we'll find out then why it wasn't underwritten in this instance. I do agree that it's unusual for there not to be at least some sort of coverage.
Underwriter might be Chartis which is now called AIG

 

Canadian Finn

Oskee Wee Wee
Feb 21, 2014
5,108
4,544
The Hammer
It wasn't a D&O policy that paid out on the Maple Leafs abuse scandals, it was the CGL policy, through the Bodily Injury coverage extension.

I suspect the Hockey Canada CGL policy is paying out the settlement accordingly. (not coming out of the 'pockets' of Hockey Canada, instead their Insurer - which is the important part to the insurance equation).

Underwriter might be Chartis
which would be AIG.

Maybe.

But most likely it's Lloyds of London.
 

Gainesvillain

Registered User
Apr 9, 2013
1,576
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We do consider the evidence. In fact, due to consideration of the evidence of Hockey Canada covering up serious allegations of a gang rape, this whole scandal has been uncovered, investigations (well, character assassination missions) have been re-opened, and the hush-money fund has been suspended. We. Do. We do.

We have to absolutely acknowledge that an opinion based on no evidence is far less worthy of sharing/acting on/etc than an opinion based on all the available evidence. We. We. Have. To. We have to.

The reality is, when making an opinion based on all the available evidence, it is going to be much more useful than an opinion that is based on no evidence at all. Reality. There's no denying it.
“Gang rape” is most certainly not proven in any way, shape, or form in this case.

There's a police department that investigated the matter and has *actual evidence* in its possession that the general public. - you and me included- is not privy to. Based on that evidence, they decided to lay no charges in the case.

The police department's opinion was based on the actual evidence. Yours is based on assumption and conjecture.

By your own logic, it’s *your* opinion that's not worthwhile sharing. There's no denying it.
 
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