Canadian Government Freezing Hockey Canada Funding- (2018 Canada World Jr Team Alleged Sexual Assault) PART 2

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MXD

Partying Hard
Oct 27, 2005
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OK, sure. Still doesn't sit well with me.
Well, that is the law.

Why would anyone WANT to remain silent on this, though? Unless they had something to hide...:help:

Well...
- If they're found to be lying before the committee, WHILE THERE IS AN POLICE INVESTIGATION ON THE MATTER, it's perjury.
- Whatever they're saying to the administrative investigation could eventually used by the police investigation.
 
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The Hanging Jowl

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Apr 2, 2017
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Well, that is the law.

Criminal? Sure. Civil? Not so sure. It's using coercion to try to force someone to possibly incriminate themselves. That's my original point. Borders on extortion if you ask me. Many players that don't make the NHL have strong affiliations with Hockey Canada (coaching, skills and drills outfits, scouting, you name it). It's a serious threat to their livelihood. Do they deserve it? Maybe but you know, that whole due process thing I mentioned.
 

Dr Pepper

Registered User
Dec 9, 2005
71,457
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Sunny Etobicoke
Well, that is the law.



Well...
- If they're found to be lying before the committee, WHILE THERE IS AN POLICE INVESTIGATION ON THE MATTER, it's perjury.
- Whatever they're saying to the administrative investigation could eventually used by the police investigation.

Well, sure, if they're going to speak it'd obviously be in their best interests to be truthful in what they say.

I just figure any player who is free of wrongdoing would be eager to clear his name, and wash his hands of the whole mess once and for all.

I'm sure there's a shitstorm coming for a couple players though.
 

MXD

Partying Hard
Oct 27, 2005
51,883
17,819
Well, sure, if they're going to speak it'd obviously be in their best interests to be truthful in what they say.

I just figure any player who is free of wrongdoing would be eager to clear his name, and wash his hands of the whole mess once and for all.

I'm sure there's a shitstorm coming for a couple players though.
(Very obvious part missing in my earlier post : If they're found to be lying before the committee, WHILE THERE IS AN POLICE INVESTIGATION ON THE MATTER THAT EVENTUALLY DISCOVERS THEY'VE INDEED BEEN LYING, it's perjury
 

The Hanging Jowl

Registered User
Apr 2, 2017
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Well, sure, if they're going to speak it'd obviously be in their best interests to be truthful in what they say.

I just figure any player who is free of wrongdoing would be eager to clear his name, and wash his hands of the whole mess once and for all.

I'm sure there's a shitstorm coming for a couple players though.

You could use that same argument in a criminal trial and very few people take the stand in their own criminal trial (at the advice of pretty much every competent lawyer in history). And we're still supposed to presume them innocent.
 

Perrah

Registered User
Jul 2, 2009
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Criminal? Sure. Civil? Not so sure. It's using coercion to try to force someone to possibly incriminate themselves. That's my original point. Borders on extortion if you ask me. Many players that don't make the NHL have strong affiliations with Hockey Canada (coaching, skills and drills outfits, scouting, you name it). It's a serious threat to their livelihood. Do they deserve it? Maybe but you know, that whole due process thing I mentioned.
If they dont want to co-operate with an organizations mandate in an investigation then why should the be able to work for that organization?
 

The Hanging Jowl

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Apr 2, 2017
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If they dont want to co-operate with an organizations mandate in an investigation then why should the be able to work for that organization?

But it's not just for "that" organization. Hockey Canada controls pretty much all minor hockey in Canada and anything to do with it. You aren't working for Hockey Canada when you want to ref in a local minor hockey league but you sure need their certification. I could give many examples of careers ex-hockey players fall back on when their NHL dreams don't pan out. I would guess a majority of players that make it to the junior level fall back on careers like reffing, coaching, skills and drills, etc. That's what they're threatening to take away here. It's not nothing. And again, since Hockey Canada is publicly funded, I think they lose the right to be able to arbitrarily deny people access to their certifications.

I hope I'm not coming off as apologetic for d-bag sports bros BTW, I hate that culture as much as anyone. I've hated them my whole life going back to high school and in my experience, a lot of them are still the same type of people well into their adult years (maybe forever). This is more about our constitutional rights. We either have 'em or we don't.
 

Perrah

Registered User
Jul 2, 2009
3,372
843
But it's not just for "that" organization. Hockey Canada controls pretty much all minor hockey in Canada and anything to do with it. You aren't working for Hockey Canada when you want to ref in a local minor hockey league but you sure need their certification. I could give many examples of careers ex-hockey players fall back on when their NHL dreams don't pan out. I would guess a majority of players that make it to the junior level fall back on careers like reffing, coaching, skills and drills, etc. That's what they're threatening to take away here. It's not nothing. And again, since Hockey Canada is publicly funded, I think they lose the right to be able to arbitrarily deny people access to their certifications.

I hope I'm not coming off as apologetic for d-bag sports bros BTW, I hate that culture as much as anyone. I've hated them my whole life going back to high school and in my experience, a lot of them are still the same type of people well into their adult years (maybe forever). This is more about our constitutional rights. We either have 'em or we don't.
I don't think you come off apologetic in the post I replied to but this is hardly arbitrary, it is an exceptional circumstance. The players not interviewed have a choice to make and if they choose to throw away HC related jobs over not being interviewed that is a choice they made. It isnt HC telling them what to say or else face expulsion it is tell your side of the story.

Edit: If anything it could be a lesson in dealing with issues as they arise instead of hoping it fades away.
 
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MXD

Partying Hard
Oct 27, 2005
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I don't think you come off apologetic in the post I replied to but this is hardly arbitrary, it is an exceptional circumstance. The players not interviewed have a choice to make and if they choose to throw away HC related jobs over not being interviewed that is a choice they made. It isnt HC telling them what to say or else face expulsion it is tell your side of the story.

Edit: If anything it could be a lesson in dealing with issues as they arise instead of hoping it fades away.
More importantly, nobody is entitled to a job in hockey.
 

The Hanging Jowl

Registered User
Apr 2, 2017
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More importantly, nobody is entitled to a job in hockey.
And nobody has a right to deny someone a job in hockey.

I don't think you come off apologetic in the post I replied to but this is hardly arbitrary, it is an exceptional circumstance. The players not interviewed have a choice to make and if they choose to throw away HC related jobs over not being interviewed that is a choice they made. It isnt HC telling them what to say or else face expulsion it is tell your side of the story.

Edit: If anything it could be a lesson in dealing with issues as they arise instead of hoping it fades away.

By arbitrary I mean they and they alone are deciding the fate of these individuals without evidence they did anything wrong.
 

Melrose Munch

Registered User
Mar 18, 2007
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And nobody has a right to deny someone a job in hockey.



By arbitrary I mean they and they alone are deciding the fate of these individuals without evidence they did anything wrong.
Since when? There is no right to play or coach hockey. If they didn't want to be banned, don't be there when something goes down. Don't do bad things. Let's hope they can clear their name. You shouldn't want someone that would participate in something like this to mentor youth anyway.
 

pcruz

Registered User
Mar 7, 2013
6,574
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Vaughan
But it's not just for "that" organization. Hockey Canada controls pretty much all minor hockey in Canada and anything to do with it. You aren't working for Hockey Canada when you want to ref in a local minor hockey league but you sure need their certification. I could give many examples of careers ex-hockey players fall back on when their NHL dreams don't pan out. I would guess a majority of players that make it to the junior level fall back on careers like reffing, coaching, skills and drills, etc. That's what they're threatening to take away here. It's not nothing. And again, since Hockey Canada is publicly funded, I think they lose the right to be able to arbitrarily deny people access to their certifications.

I hope I'm not coming off as apologetic for d-bag sports bros BTW, I hate that culture as much as anyone. I've hated them my whole life going back to high school and in my experience, a lot of them are still the same type of people well into their adult years (maybe forever). This is more about our constitutional rights. We either have 'em or we don't.

The bolded is essentially the most important thing we need to remember.

Despite the failings of the system and the perception that it is made to "protect the criminals", it is essential that we do our best to protect the rights and freedoms that the Charter provides to all of us as a blanket.

There is nothing worse than innocent people getting caught up in the furor of "justice" and having their lives completely torn apart. It doesn't help anyone at all, and only serves to sew doubt into the judicial system even further.

When we punish, we need to be as certain as we can that we have the right people in the crosshairs and that we are punishing them for the crimes they committed, not the ones we suspect.
 
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I am toxic

. . . even in small doses
Oct 24, 2014
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And nobody has a right to deny someone a job in hockey.



By arbitrary I mean they and they alone are deciding the fate of these individuals without evidence they did anything wrong.

This is not accurate, and a very dangerous thing to suggest.

Every mha appoints and hires coaches each summer for the upcoming season, whether paid rep coaches or volunteer (usually parent) coaches for rec teams (and some rep teams).

A properly run mha will have a coaching committee that assembles lists of candidates, interviews new "hires", reviews past "hires" that are returning, provides summary information that is then presented to the mha Board for approval. There is a bunch of other stuff from contracts and paperwork etc.

Here is BC Athletics Risk Management Policy. The link in the pdf to the volunteer screening model is out of date, see the link mentioned below.

Among other things, the Policy states:

Criminal record checks are done by local police and people undergoing criminal record
checks must provide written permission.

Criminal record checks are an important safeguard – but it’s not the only one as
information from criminal records checks only provides information about convictions
and not about charges laid or being suspected of criminal acts.

Other screening measures include developing good policies and procedures for
recruiting, selecting and supervising volunteers. Some volunteers, like coaches, have more access to children than others (e.g. route marshals, board members) and as such, more stringent screening and supervision procedures should be applied.
For more information about screening, see SportSafe’s volunteer screening model [PDF, 263KB] on this website.

While criminal record checks and screening are not foolproof, they are a good deterrent to those who fear a background check. The ten steps listed below follow the Volunteer Canada suggestions for organizations such as ours which include both a paid staff component and a volunteer component.

Further input has been received from our association’s lawyers. The steps to a BC Athletics Risk Management Policy [screening policy] will include:
 Determine the risk involved with each position.
 Write a clear position description.
 Establish a formal recruitment process.
 Use an application form.
 Conduct interviews.
 Follow up on references.
 Request a Criminal Records Check or complete a Voluntary Declaration Form.
 Conduct orientation and training sessions.
 Supervise and evaluate each candidate.
 Follow up with the participants.

Each of the ten steps listed above can be adapted to suit the provincial organization, member clubs and individual coaches, volunteers and officials.


In the model, it states:

Gut Feelings

What happens if there is no concrete, tangible reason to screen someone out but your intuition or a gut feeling tells you that something is wrong? Those responsible for screening who have this kind of intuition must identify a logical, defensible, concrete or documented reason for their concern. Excluding an individual from a volunteer or employment opportunity for reasons that are not relevant may result in legal action by the applicant. One way to help ensure that your decisions are fair and reasonable is to document your concerns. If, for example, you feel the applicant is evasive, record the questions he or she did not answer. Bringing other people into the issue – other members of your organization, or references – may help in either hardening the feeling or dispelling it. This is one of the most difficult issues in screening and may present situations where the person responsible for screening’s moral and ethical responsibilities lead them in one direction while their legal obligations point in another direction. Your fundamental concern, however, is the protection of your members.


Be very, very aware of how you handle matters:

Defamation and Invasion of Privacy
Your organization must be aware of potential legal liability if personal information about someone is made public. Even if something that is said is true, telling it to others, like another staff member, may still constitute an invasion of privacy which could result in a lawsuit. Spoken defamation is called slander and written defamation is called libel. Both refer to information that is made public which is judged to injure a person’s reputation.

Applying this more rigourously could have protected the kids at BWC.

Back to this specific thread matter and the 2018 World Juniors team, if I was on an mha coaching committee and one of the 19 members of that 2018 world juniors team was applying for a paid or volunteer coaching position at my mha, I would document that they were part of this team, that they were aware of serious gang rape allegations, and that they did not come forward to see that it was addressed. For the other three, Mete would probably be fine (which would also be documented), not sure about the other two, would have to confirm their circumstances are same as Mete. Having documented that, and that they would be coaching youth, I would recommend to the Board that they not be made an official of any of our youth teams. If I was a Board member, I would not approve making them an official of any of our youth teams, regardless of what the coaching committee recommendation was, and document the decision including risks etc. It may be n the distant future that some of those 19 members are able to demonstrate they have learned/changed and deserve a chance. Right now they are mostly just digging a deeper hole for themselves. Anyway, different people/mha's have different risk assessments and priorities. But all of them should consider and document this.

Covering up serious allegations of gang rape is behaviour that no one wants in a coach working with youth. It is nasty stuff, coming forward is fraught with risks of slander, libel, and invasion of privacy. If someone becomes aware of such allegations, they should go to the police, be truthful, and then go to a lawyer. Then follow up with the appropriate agency to ensure that this matter is addressed. In that order.

That is what good and decent citizens do.

What they don't do is first call their lawyer, listen to their lawyer tell them to go to the police, then contact their risk manager, then contact their lawyer again to launch an attack dog mission, then contact their insurance.

And then contact the police.

Then pay out hush money from mandatory fees secretly skimmed off of little kids that play hockey.

And hide it in the books.

That is not what good and decent people do.

And they would be the last people you would want driving the change of hockey culture and its toxic code of silence.
 
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Melrose Munch

Registered User
Mar 18, 2007
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Every time I see people misuse the charter of rights and freedoms I just want to bash my head.

There is no fundamental right or freedom that includes employment for hockey. None.
People would forgiven for thinking otherwise given how the CBC and others of mythologized hockey the past 50 years.
 
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pcruz

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Every time I see people misuse the charter of rights and freedoms I just want to bash my head.

There is no fundamental right or freedom that includes employment for hockey. None.



This will disagree with you:

Legal Rights​

Marginal note:Life, liberty and security of person

7 Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice.

Marginal note:Search or seizure

8 Everyone has the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure.

Marginal note: Detention or imprisonment

9 Everyone has the right not to be arbitrarily detained or imprisoned.

Marginal note:Arrest or detention

10 Everyone has the right on arrest or detention

  • (a) to be informed promptly of the reasons therefor;
  • (b) to retain and instruct counsel without delay and to be informed of that right; and
  • (c) to have the validity of the detention determined by way of habeas corpus and to be released if the detention is not lawful.
Marginal note: Proceedings in criminal and penal matters

11 Any person charged with an offence has the right

  • (a) to be informed without unreasonable delay of the specific offence;
  • (b) to be tried within a reasonable time;
  • (c) not to be compelled to be a witness in proceedings against that person in respect of the offence;
  • (d) to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal;
  • (e) not to be denied reasonable bail without just cause;
  • (f) except in the case of an offence under military law tried before a military tribunal, to the benefit of trial by jury where the maximum punishment for the offence is imprisonment for five years or a more severe punishment;
  • (g) not to be found guilty on account of any act or omission unless, at the time of the act or omission, it constituted an offence under Canadian or international law or was criminal according to the general principles of law recognized by the community of nations;
  • (h) if finally acquitted of the offence, not to be tried for it again and, if finally found guilty and punished for the offence, not to be tried or punished for it again; and
  • (i) if found guilty of the offence and if the punishment for the offence has been varied between the time of commission and the time of sentencing, to the benefit of the lesser punishment.
Marginal note:Treatment or punishment

12 Everyone has the right not to be subjected to any cruel and unusual treatment or punishment.

Marginal note:Self-crimination

13 A witness who testifies in any proceedings has the right not to have any incriminating evidence so given used to incriminate that witness in any other proceedings, except in a prosecution for perjury or for the giving of contradictory evidence.
 

Tad Mikowsky

Only Droods
Jun 30, 2008
20,857
21,559
Edmonton


This will disagree with you:

Legal Rights​

Marginal note:Life, liberty and security of person

7 Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice.

Marginal note:Search or seizure

8 Everyone has the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure.

Marginal note:Detention or imprisonment

9 Everyone has the right not to be arbitrarily detained or imprisoned.

Marginal note:Arrest or detention

10 Everyone has the right on arrest or detention

  • (a) to be informed promptly of the reasons therefor;
  • (b) to retain and instruct counsel without delay and to be informed of that right; and
  • (c) to have the validity of the detention determined by way of habeas corpus and to be released if the detention is not lawful.
Marginal note:Proceedings in criminal and penal matters

11 Any person charged with an offence has the right

  • (a) to be informed without unreasonable delay of the specific offence;
  • (b) to be tried within a reasonable time;
  • (c) not to be compelled to be a witness in proceedings against that person in respect of the offence;
  • (d) to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal;
  • (e) not to be denied reasonable bail without just cause;
  • (f) except in the case of an offence under military law tried before a military tribunal, to the benefit of trial by jury where the maximum punishment for the offence is imprisonment for five years or a more severe punishment;
  • (g) not to be found guilty on account of any act or omission unless, at the time of the act or omission, it constituted an offence under Canadian or international law or was criminal according to the general principles of law recognized by the community of nations;
  • (h) if finally acquitted of the offence, not to be tried for it again and, if finally found guilty and punished for the offence, not to be tried or punished for it again; and
  • (i) if found guilty of the offence and if the punishment for the offence has been varied between the time of commission and the time of sentencing, to the benefit of the lesser punishment.
Marginal note:Treatment or punishment

12 Everyone has the right not to be subjected to any cruel and unusual treatment or punishment.

Marginal note:Self-crimination

13 A witness who testifies in any proceedings has the right not to have any incriminating evidence so given used to incriminate that witness in any other proceedings, except in a prosecution for perjury or for the giving of contradictory evidence.

Nowhere does it mention the right to play hockey.
 
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pcruz

Registered User
Mar 7, 2013
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Vaughan
Nowhere does it mention the right to play hockey.

It mentions that everyone has the right to not be denied life, liberty and safety of the person unless they have been punished by the proper legal procedures.

Therefore, until those same people have had a reason to be denied the right to work at Hockey Canada, they can't be denied such.
 
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