Canadian Government Freezing Hockey Canada Funding- (2018 Canada World Jr Team Alleged Sexual Assault) PART 2

[4thline]

@CanHeDoIt99 @I am toxic

That "naahh" was incredibly tongue in cheek. HH acted in such a way to shield HC from liability. The "due process" excuse was a paper thin veneer to justify not having interviewed them, which they didn't do because no one involved (HC, players) benefited from HC being in possession of those statements.

So HC didn't "know," but the only reason they don't have reasonable suspicion on record is because HH helped them make it so.

We haven't been lied to. But we're definitely being misled to believe that a well intentioned investigation was thwarted by x,y,z when really it was corporate defense lawyers looking out for their client, and that HC was complicit in contributing to the self-interested coverup.

 

[BadgerBruce]

Sheldon Kennedy calls on Smith the leadership team and the board to resign immediately

It’s impossible for me to “Like” this enough.

Hockey Canada is like the bride of Frankenstein. The very idea was a big mistake from the start.

Think about it: the original Hockey Canada was a brazen slush fund controlled by Alan Eagleson out of his Maitland St. office in Toronto, where he also ran his player agency business and the NHLPA. It was a House of Graft & Skulduggery.

In 1994, “that” old Hockey Canada merged with the old Canadian Amateur Hockey Association (the longtime steward of amateur hockey in Canada), with the self-governing Canadian Hockey League tacked on as a founding “member partner,” which is just code for a commercial enterprise lined up at the international hockey money trough.

The result? A grotesque three-headed monster that, by design, brought three distinct old boys’ hockey networks together under one corporate roof. It was a mad scientist experiment: take one inherently corrupt organization bent on exploiting international hockey solely to get rich. Add one historically under-funded and under-staffed organization focused on stewarding amateur hockey at the community level. Finish with a pinch of a completely unregulated major junior hockey league that takes orders only from itself and measures success in dollars and cents.

What a fracking mess. The people running this skid mark need to be flushed.

 

[Leafsfan74]

Sadly, this is the standard Canadian authority structure being exposed. A structure that exists across MANY institutions, even some we are always taught represent "the Good Guys".

I firmly believe in due process and the assumption of innocence. I also believe in transparency and accountability, especially from government, police agencies and those in positions of power.

This isn't unlike what most people believe in, especially Americans. The question is, " how rare are such injustices in Canada or is this just a microcosm of a much bigger problem?"

Knowledgeable, smart money is on the latter...

 

[Jeune Poulet]

I predict there will a lot less apologists in this second thread. The horror surrounding this case goes deep. There's the odious crime itself, the large number of perpetrators and then there's the numerous institutions that covered it up.

Westhead's article and the reactions to it, in the two weeks that followed, were critical. Because it could easily have been buried by other news and general indifference. This kind of stuff happened so many times before.I don't think anything can stop the truth from coming out now. This is just the beginning.

It's also going to be impossible for the IIHF not to do something about it. The IIHF should do the right thing. Ban team Canada from the WJCs.

Send the right message to Canada and to other nations.

 

[Angry Little Elf]

It’s impossible for me to “Like” this enough.

Hockey Canada is like the bride of Frankenstein. The very idea was a big mistake from the start.

Think about it: the original Hockey Canada was a brazen slush fund controlled by Alan Eagleson out of his Maitland St. office in Toronto, where he also ran his player agency business and the NHLPA. It was a House of Graft & Skulduggery.

In 1994, “that” old Hockey Canada merged with the old Canadian Amateur Hockey Association (the longtime steward of amateur hockey in Canada), with the self-governing Canadian Hockey League tacked on as a founding “member partner,” which is just code for a commercial enterprise lined up at the international hockey money trough.

The result? A grotesque three-headed monster that, by design, brought three distinct old boys’ hockey networks together under one corporate roof. It was a mad scientist experiment: take one inherently corrupt organization bent on exploiting international hockey solely to get rich. Add one historically under-funded and under-staffed organization focused on stewarding amateur hockey at the community level. Finish with a pinch of a completely unregulated major junior hockey league that takes orders only from itself and measures success in dollars and cents.

What a fracking mess. The people running this skid mark need to be flushed.

I never knew this history. Thanks

 

[Zippity]

So now it’s finger pointing between Sport Canada and Hockey Canada

So now it’s finger pointing between Sport Canada and Hockey Canada

 

[joestevens29]

So now it’s finger pointing between Sport Canada and Hockey Canada

So now it’s finger pointing between Sport Canada and Hockey Canada

What a shit show

 

[BadgerBruce]

I predict there will a lot less apologists in this second thread. The horror surrounding this case goes deep. There's the odious crime itself, the large number of perpetrators and then there's the numerous institutions that covered it up.

Westhead's article and the reactions to it, in the two weeks that followed, were critical. Because it could easily have been buried by other news and general indifference. This kind of stuff happened so many times before.I don't think anything can stop the truth from coming out now. This is just the beginning.

It's also going to be impossible for the IIHF not to do something about it. The IIHF should do the right thing. Ban team Canada from the WJCs.

Send the right message to Canada and to other nations.

You do realize that the Vice-president of the IIHF is former Hockey Canada President & CEO Bob Nicholson? How someone who does not even hold a position with Hockey Canada is allowed to represent the organization on the IIHF is a topic to be discussed another day, but I wouldn’t expect action against Hockey Canada. It’s all about who you know …

 

[I am toxic]

@CanHeDoIt99 @I am toxic

That "naahh" was incredibly tongue in cheek. HH acted in such a way to shield HC from liability. The "due process" excuse was a paper thin veneer to justify not having interviewed them, which they didn't do because no one involved (HC, players) benefited from HC being in possession of those statements.

So HC didn't "know," but the only reason they don't have reasonable suspicion on record is because HH helped them make it so.

We haven't been lied to. But we're definitely being misled to believe that a well intentioned investigation was thwarted by x,y,z when really it was corporate defense lawyers looking out for their client, and that HC was complicit in contributing to the self-interested coverup.

Well, here is Smith's sworn testimony:

Anthony Housefather

Mr. Anthony Housefather:

Let me come back, then. You were aware from 2018 of the identity of the accused. Have any disciplinary actions been taken against any of the alleged accused in any way?


Mr. Scott Smith:
For clarity, we are not aware. We were not able to confirm the identity of the accused—

Mr. Anthony Housefather:
That's different from what I understood.

Mr. Scott Smith:
—through our third party investigator.

Mr. Anthony Housefather:
Let me understand and come back, then.
They served you with the documents. You were never advised of who the eight John Doe accused were. From the independent <sic> investigation you did through Henein Hutchison, for whatever reasons—lack of co-operation or whatever—you were never actually able to ascertain who the eight people were.

Mr. Scott Smith:
As you can appreciate, we wanted a third party to conduct that investigation for us. If they had been able to confirm, there would have been discipline. Actually, it would have gone to a three-person adjudication panel. Neither that third party nor the London Police Service were able to confirm who the accused were.

But HH (the "third party") says she knows that the accused feel prejudged. And she stated that years ago "As a matter of due process, I could not interview players without giving them fair notice of what was alleged against them."

So the way I read it, is that HH is either lying that they could not interview the accused, or that Smith is lying that HH could not confirm who the accused were.

Or quite possibly, both are lying.

 

[I am toxic]

Sheldon Kennedy calls on Smith the leadership team and the board to resign immediately

Huh.

"Wait, there is one conclusion - based on the available evidence - that I reached that most everyone else is going to catch up to later: the execs at Hockey Canada are the last people who should be driving the change of the toxic hockey culture. The same people who employ the tactics of defending rape-enabling culture, who covered up serious allegations of gang rape, are clearly the last people who should be driving the change of the toxic hockey culture. My opinion is not based on assumptions or conjecture, it's based on the available evidence."

I made a conclusion, based on the available evidence using logical reasoning. I didn't rely on a criminal court of law to declare something is virtually certain. I know what you are thinking . . .

Yes, I'm the monster here.

 

[4thline]

But HH (the "third party") says she knows that the accused feel prejudged. And she stated that years ago "As a matter of due process, I could not interview players without giving them fair notice of what was alleged against them."

So the way I read it, is that HH is either lying that they could not interview the accused, or that Smith is lying that HH could not confirm who the accused were.

Or quite possibly, both are lying.

You're not thinking lawyer-y enough. Between BS'ing a reason not to interview the players that didn't want to be interviewed and the victim not providing a statement the "3rd party" investigator was not able to confirm who was in the room and might be guilty of misconduct. A reasonably competent monkey could infer who, but that is not the same as "confirming the identity."

Upper management of HC should be burned to the ground for doing this all in bad faith, but as of yet- technically not lying.

 

[Jeune Poulet]

You do realize that the Vice-president of the IIHF is former Hockey Canada President & CEO Bob Nicholson? How someone who does not even hold a position with Hockey Canada is allowed to represent the organization on the IIHF is a topic to be discussed another day, but I wouldn’t expect action against Hockey Canada. It’s all about who you know …

I'm under no illusion. Hockey Canada is formidable beast and the IIHF basically depends on it for many events. The chances are slim, especially since the WJCs are going to be held in Edmonton. The timing is also makes it very bad.

But the one thing that makes a difference is pressure. That's what happened with Hockey Canada. Enough people started asking questions. Organizations like the IIHF have no morals. As long as they can get away with an easy set up that makes them money, they will. The IIHF is going to tolerate this until enough people, government and sponsors make it clear it's unacceptable.

These WJCs need to be as uncomfortable as possible for Hockey Canada, and for everyone who doesn't want to care about these important stories, but should.

 

[Jeune Poulet]

You're not thinking lawyer-y enough. Between BS'ing a reason not to interview the players that didn't want to be interviewed and the victim not providing a statement the "3rd party" investigator was not able to confirm who was in the room and might be guilty of misconduct. A reasonably competent monkey could infer who, but that is not the same as "confirming the identity."

Upper management of HC should be burned to the ground for doing this all in bad faith, but as of yet- technically not lying.

Yup! Even in their bogus investigations and their weaseling in commission, they've done their best to not only coverup the crime, but to phrase everything in a manner that blames the victim and absolve everyone that's at fault. Which of course, some people were too eager to believe.

"Yeah but holD on guys! She chose not to collaborate with the police so we don't know if something happened and she chose not to name the players and she's up to no good!!"

Yeah right.

People who fall for crooked lawyer tactics like that and even feel the need to extrapolate to add another layer of victim blaming need to ask themselves some really tough questions.

 

[Uncle Rotter]

From your linked cbc article:



If she doesn't know who the accused are, how does she know they are worried?

If she does know who the accused are but hasn't interviewed them, how does she know they are worried?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/hockey-canada-investigator-committee-1.6532137

Robitaille added that legal counsel for eight of the nine players with whom she hasn't spoken told her the players are concerned that some politicians and Hockey Canada officials already have decided they're guilty.

 

[I am toxic]

You're not thinking lawyer-y enough. Between BS'ing a reason not to interview the players that didn't want to be interviewed and the victim not providing a statement the "3rd party" investigator was not able to confirm who was in the room and might be guilty of misconduct. A reasonably competent monkey could infer who, but that is not the same as "confirming the identity."

Upper management of HC should be burned to the ground for doing this all in bad faith, but as of yet- technically not lying.

A lie is an intentionally false statement, where false means deliberately meant to deceive.

There statements are 100% intentional. They are putting out statements vetted by a legal team as part of damage control effort regarding covering up serious allegations of rape in front of a national stage.

In my view, the intent is deliberately to deceive, just like they lied about contacting police as soon as they became aware of this matter in 2018.

They either technically lied that they can't interview players, or they technically lied that they don't know who the accused are.

Or both.

And for the record, I am not asking for any speculation on player names. None. Zero.

Rather I am asking for clarification on whether we have been lied to once more, that the accused are unknown, when it appears they may have known for years now.

 

[Fogelhund]

Just a naive question in all of this. I’m under the assumption that at some point, those involved will be named, and possibly charged. What level of guilt, legally found guilty, or named in this, is it likely to result In NHL repercussions? What are these probable repercussions? Thanks.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

Sheldon Kennedy calls on Smith the leadership team and the board to resign immediately

Good on him. Saw him speak at a convention years ago. He’s a great advocate.

 

[I am toxic]

I'm under no illusion. Hockey Canada is formidable beast and the IIHF basically depends on it for many events. The chances are slim, especially since the WJCs are going to be held in Edmonton. The timing is also makes it very bad.

But the one thing that makes a difference is pressure. That's what happened with Hockey Canada. Enough people started asking questions. Organizations like the IIHF have no morals. As long as they can get away with an easy set up that makes them money, they will. The IIHF is going to tolerate this until enough people, government and sponsors make it clear it's unacceptable.

These WJCs need to be as uncomfortable as possible for Hockey Canada, and for everyone who doesn't want to care about these important stories, but should.

The players should not be wearing the maple leaf, nor should the team be named Canada, at the upcoming tournament. Convince me otherwise.

It is horrible that the 2022 players, who had nothing to do with the cover up, are caught up in this, but that is 100% the fault of Hockey Canada. Horrible things happen when people do horrible things, like covering up serious rape allegations and siphoning off kids' hockey registration fees to use as hush money.

That's the thing with needed change - delayed, resisted, thwarted, it just ends up costing more, far more, in the end. And innocent people pay the price.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Hmmm...something about this isn't sitting well with me. Being forced to answer questions could lead to criminal charges and this is effectively taking away someone's right to remain silent is it not? And you can say Hockey Canada is a private organization that can do what they like but I think they lose that argument when they get public funding. Either way, it will be very interesting to see the 9 names that aren't cooperating. But then, that's also problematic because they will likely get tried in public. It's a no-win situation for someone that has something to worry about but we're supposed to have due process in this country.

 

[Deep Blue Metallic]

Hmmm...something about this isn't sitting well with me. Being forced to answer questions could lead to criminal charges and this is effectively taking away someone's right to remain silent is it not? And you can say Hockey Canada is a private organization that can do what they like but I think they lose that argument when they get public funding. Either way, it will be very interesting to see the 9 names that aren't cooperating. But then, that's also problematic because they will likely get tried in public. It's a no-win situation for someone that has something to worry about but we're supposed to have due process in this country.

Does Canada have a right to remain silent, analagous to the 5th Amendment to the US Constitution? I honestly don't know.

 

[MXD]

Hmmm...something about this isn't sitting well with me. Being forced to answer questions could lead to criminal charges and this is effectively taking away someone's right to remain silent is it not?

Absolutely nothing prevents those players from remaining silent.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Does Canada have a right to remain silent, analagous to the 5th Amendment to the US Constitution? I honestly don't know.

I'm not sure it's the same wording but yes, we have something similar.

Absolutely nothing prevents those players from remaining silent.

Except the threat of being banned for life from Hockey Canada?

 

[MXD]

Does Canada have a right to remain silent, analagous to the 5th Amendment to the US Constitution? I honestly don't know.

Charter, 11 c) and 13. 10b) covers that too (right to a lawyer)

11. Any person charged with an offence has the right

• (c) not to be compelled to be a witness in proceedings against that person in respect of the offence;

13. A witness who testifies in any proceedings has the right not to have any incriminating evidence so given used to incriminate that witness in any other proceedings, except in a prosecution for perjury or for the giving of contradictory evidence.


This said, here, there's absolutely nothing preventing the players from keeping silent.

Except the threat of being banned for life from Hockey Canada?

....Which is not anything that prevents them from remaining silent. The guarantee is only against criminal/penal consequences.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

....Which is not anything that prevents them from remaining silent.

OK, sure. Still doesn't sit well with me.

 

[Dr Pepper]

Does Canada have a right to remain silent, analagous to the 5th Amendment to the US Constitution? I honestly don't know.

Why would anyone WANT to remain silent on this, though? Unless they had something to hide...