Can Connor McDavid break up the "big 4"?

[Regal]

The OP comes down to either placing McDavid above Mario and/or Orr all-time based on elite longevity and/or placing his offensive peak at a ceiling clearly above Howe's.

Does anyone want to place his peak along side Mario and/or Orr? If not, then the answer is likely not.

It hard to place him with Mario given the somewhat direct line you can draw from McDavid through Crosby and Jagr to Mario.

I don’t believe that’s true. Howe’s peak was 4 seasons. I think his peak could still be considered better, but if McDavid maintains a longer peak and higher average level through say his best 10 years, and also has a healthy, strong finish into his late 30s, a better “prime” and strong longevity could put him ahead.

 

[VistamarCroissants]

No goalies or defencemen in Top 4?

Anyway, McDavid isn't cracking it for now

 

[JackSlater]

You're doing it wrong. In that case, McDavid would be a greater leader.

Ahhhhhh you're correct.

We could, following this theory, go back to round two game seven and ask what if the Canucks have a healthy Demko and he pitches a shutout?

Sure, but I'm asking a specific question based on your post. If Skinner had pitched a shutout and Janmark's goal was the winner, would you rank McDavid higher than you do now?

 

[Fatass]

Ahhhhhh you're correct.



Sure, but I'm asking a specific question based on your post. If Skinner had pitched a shutout and Janmark's goal was the winner, would you rank McDavid higher than you do now?

You’re suggesting a “what aboutism”. In reality McDavid, in the biggest game to solidify his legacy, failed to produce and lift his club to the Cup.

 

[The Panther]

I definitely think Crosby is a great leader and moreso than McDavid.

It's quite possible (quite likely, I'd speculate) that Crosby is a better public speaker and has a larger vocabulary than McDavid. Crosby also won it all at a very young age, which possibly gave him a certain lofty status in the eyes of his peers and teammates.

But this idea that we, as fans, can judge which player is a good "leader" is just silly.

 

[daver]

I don’t believe that’s true. Howe’s peak was 4 seasons. I think his peak could still be considered better, but if McDavid maintains a longer peak and higher average level through say his best 10 years, and also has a healthy, strong finish into his late 30s, a better “prime” and strong longevity could put him ahead.

Howe didn't exactly drop off that much after his peak. And he brings a lot more than just offense which muddies the waters.

 

[jigglysquishy]

No goalies or defencemen in Top 4?

Anyway, McDavid isn't cracking it for now

Orr is a lock in the top 4.

Goalies, ya, there's no real argument for a goalie top 4. I don't have any goalie top 10.

 

[MadLuke]

But this idea that we, as fans, can judge which player is a good "leader" is just silly.

True or not, that would make talking about sport duller, without being certain there is testimony, public behavior (during game and outside) that we can decide to say we judge if a player is a good leader.

Take Steve Yzerman, how many nhler told us so, that when you were traded to the Wings, Yzerman brought you to his house for a home cook meal and was extremely good to make you feel welcome, the play on a knee during the playoff, we could take a chance to say Beliveau, Chara, older Crosby, Sakic, Gretzky etc... were great leader.

But to your point, Yzerman was talked quite differently before winning despite all that, many people now will throw some cold ice about Toews being such a great leader (or even Messier the guy with the name of the trophy and consensus great leader 20 years ago).

There are a list of work ethic, in game body language and effort in the hurting part of the game, tone setting that we can still judge, cannot know and could be all wrong if any exist for superbly paid group of already ultra motivated with good enough work ethic to reach the pros.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

On the leadership front, I've always found it a curious coincidence that every "great" leader in hockey history was magically on a stacked team.

 

[MadLuke]

On the leadership front, I've always found it a curious coincidence that every "great" leader in hockey history was magically on a stacked team.

Shane Doan won the Messier and was known has a great captain I think, Iginla, Bourque ? But it is true that hockey history tend to be written in the playoff.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Shane Doan won the Messier and was known has a great captain I think, Iginla ? But it is true that hockey history tend to be written in the playoff.

Fair.

 

[GreatGonzo]

You’re suggesting a “what aboutism”. In reality McDavid, in the biggest game to solidify his legacy, failed to produce and lift his club to the Cup.

The whole team failed to produce, they scored 1 goal. It’s crazy how that’s a “leadedship” problem for you when the guy nearly got them a cup on his own with his play. 42 points and 11 points in the finals. Go look at his teammates and how they did in the finals and maybe that would answer your questions.

I guess Gretzky wasn’t a great leader, he couldn’t get LA to a cup, got swept in the finals, and went pointless in game 4. Seems like without a stacked team around him, his “leadership” qualities disappear….weird right?

 

[daver]

On the leadership front, I've always found it a curious coincidence that every "great" leader in hockey history was magically on a stacked team.

Which of Crosby's SCF teams were "stacked"? The 2009 Pens team, outside of Crosby and Malkin, were one statistically one of the weakest rosters for a Cup winner in history.

The 2017 Pens won without their #1 D-man.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Because I'm so jazzed up from the Rick Nash vs Sergei Gonchar thing going on in the other thread...

One could say that Gretzky led Steve Yzerman out of the playoff doghouse in 1996, which may have come in handy when they teamed up in the 2002 Olympics... *spins bowtie*

 

[GreatGonzo]

On the leadership front, I've always found it a curious coincidence that every "great" leader in hockey history was magically on a stacked team.

isn’t it interesting? Lemieux, Gretzky, Howe, Orr, and especially Crosby…NEVER “carried” or single handily got a team to a championship….but when it comes to McDavid, we hold him to a different standard of leadership while ignoring the fact that he scored 42 points in the playoffs, broke gretzkys assist record, and had 11 points in the finals. “Nope not good enough, he needed 2 goals and an assist in a 3-2 win in order to be a REAL leader.”

The obsession with leadership on this site is ridiculous

Which of Crosby's SCF teams were "stacked"? The 2009 Pens team, outside of Crosby and Malkin, were one statistically one of the weakest rosters for a Cup winner in history.

The 2017 Pens won without their #1 D-man.

People are tearing down McDavid because he went pointless in a game 7 where they lost, and that’s why he isn’t a real “leader.” Crosby has 3 points in 7 games and barely played game 7 while going scoreless, but the team still wins….making Crosby the ultimate “leader.”

You don’t see the hypocrisy behind that?

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Which of Crosby's SCF teams were "stacked"? The 2009 Pens team, outside of Crosby and Malkin, were one statistically one of the weakest rosters for a Cup winner in history.

The 2017 Pens won without their #1 D-man.

Yeah outside of the undisputed #2/#3 player in the world who won the Ross and Smythe that year. The same one who put up 36 points leading the playoffs in scoring (something he did on 2 of the 3 Pens Cups).

It's not a knock on Crosby, but he has had the luxury of winning 3 Cups while not having to be the leading playoff scorer on any of the 3 teams.

 

[daver]

Yeah outside of the undisputed #2/#3 player in the world who won the Ross and Smythe that year. The same one who put up 36 points leading the playoffs in scoring (something he did on 2 of the 3 Pens Cups).

Draisaitl is 4th all-time in playoff PPG and Bouchard is 3rd all-time among defensemen.

Seems like a stacked team to me.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Yeah outside of the undisputed #2/#3 player in the world who won the Ross and Smythe that year. The same one who put up 36 points leading the playoffs in scoring (something he did on 2 of the 3 Pens Cups).

It's not a knock on Crosby, but he has had the luxury of winning 3 Cups while not having to be the leading playoff scorer on any of the 3 teams.

Don’t forget his play in the finals. The site would crash do to the overflow of haters storming the place to tell everyone how McDavid couldnt cut it. Crosby is extremely underwhelming there for being arguably a “top 5 player”

 

[jigglysquishy]

Draisaitl is 4th all-time in playoff PPG and Bouchard is 3rd all-time among defensemen.

Seems like a stacked team to me.

Draisaitl put up 3 points - 2 in 7 games against Florida. We now know he has broken ribs.

I don't see how McDavid can be blamed for that.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Draisaitl is 4th all-time in playoff PPG and Bouchard is 3rd all-time among defensemen.

Seems like a stacked team to me.

Draisaitl in the finals: 7-0-3-3 -2
Bouchard: 7-0-5-5 0

“Stacked”, yet didn’t bother to show up. Weird how that works right Daver?…

Go look at the top scorers in the 09 series, then come back to the conversion.

 

[Regal]

Howe didn't exactly drop off that much after his peak. And he brings a lot more than just offense which muddies the waters.

He went from dominating the scoring race to being just among the best offensive players every year with a couple more smaller lead Art Rosses. Still great but I think even if McDavid’s best 4 years don’t end up quite as good, if they’re close, which I think at least ‘21 and ‘23 are, he has the chance to beat him in their next best 6-7 years or whatever, and then it becomes more of a conversation. Tons of runway to go obviously, but I think there’s an opening if he stays healthy.

 

[Professor What]

Draisaitl put up 3 points - 2 in 7 games against Florida. We now know he has broken ribs.

I don't see how McDavid can be blamed for that.

And McDavid was doing what he was doing despite apparently needing surgery. When a banged up player does what McDavid did in that Finals series, that should get some love, yet apparently, it just shows he's not a great leader. What happened to the pride of our players playing through injuries and giving it all they had when they didn't have much left to give?

I don't see how McDavid can be blamed for anything. What we saw from him was a hero's effort.

He went from dominating the scoring race to being just among the best offensive players every year with a couple more smaller lead Art Rosses. Still great but I think even if McDavid’s best 4 years don’t end up quite as good, if they’re close, which I think at least ‘21 and ‘23 are, he has the chance to beat him in their next best 6-7 years or whatever, and then it becomes more of a conversation. Tons of runway to go obviously, but I think there’s an opening if he stays healthy.

Offense only. Again. As if that's all there was to Howe's game. He was elite defensively and physically while being one of the most dominant offensive forces the game has seen for those years. People are just too caught up on numbers.

 

[Regal]

And McDavid was doing what he was doing despite apparently needing surgery. When a banged up player does what McDavid did in that Finals series, that should get some love, yet apparently, it just shows he's not a great leader. What happened to the pride of our players playing through injuries and giving it all they had when they didn't have much left to give?

I don't see how McDavid can be blamed for anything. What we saw from him was a hero's effort.


Offense only. Again. As if that's all there was to Howe's game. He was elite defensively and physically while being one of the most dominant offensive forces the game has seen for those years. People are just too caught up on numbers.

The rest of his game matters, sure, but that doesn’t change my point really.

 

[Professor What]

The rest of his game matters, sure, but that doesn’t change my point really.

It matters, but it doesn't. Okay.

 

[gretzkyoilers]

And McDavid was doing what he was doing despite apparently needing surgery. When a banged up player does what McDavid did in that Finals series, that should get some love, yet apparently, it just shows he's not a great leader. What happened to the pride of our players playing through injuries and giving it all they had when they didn't have much left to give?

I don't see how McDavid can be blamed for anything. What we saw from him was a hero's effort.


Offense only. Again. As if that's all there was to Howe's game. He was elite defensively and physically while being one of the most dominant offensive forces the game has seen for those years. People are just too caught up on numbers.

THIS and watching McDavid since his rookie year, it looks like McDavid had a nagging injury all season (why his goal production and shooting % dropped like a rock). Coming back in 3 consecutive elimination games in the Finals no less is something we rarely see. Even more rare was McDavid winning game 5...that game is now legendary.

The Oilers did all they could having their top two producers injured, with the worst being Drai. Just like the Panthers in the 2023 finals, being healthy is part of the formula / luck to winning it all. Heck the final game was 2-1, with a hit post by Bouchard and a stick check on McDavid in front of an open net preventing it from going into OT.