Can Connor McDavid break up the "big 4"?

[Michael Farkas]

Draisaitl is 4th all-time in playoff PPG and Bouchard is 3rd all-time among defensemen.

Seems like a stacked team to me.

"All time" :roll:

But if the Oilers stacked by way of those two players...then the 2009 Pens with Malkin and Gonchar are also stacked, right?

The Oilers depth immediately below McDavid and Draisaitl is quite bad...

 

[JackSlater]

You’re suggesting a “what aboutism”. In reality McDavid, in the biggest game to solidify his legacy, failed to produce and lift his club to the Cup.

It's not whataboutism, it is a hypothetical question. What you said before implies that you would rank McDavid higher if Skinner had played better and had a shutout in one game. Is that wrong?

 

[Midnight Judges]

Which of Crosby's SCF teams were "stacked"? The 2009 Pens team, outside of Crosby and Malkin, were one statistically one of the weakest rosters for a Cup winner in history.

The 2017 Pens won without their #1 D-man.

Fleury is a hall of fame goal tender. Gonchar is a fringe hof’er. That team also had very good depth and no problem winning without Crosby whenever he was sitting out - which was rather often. The sample size is more than adequate.

 

[bobholly39]

"All time" :roll:

But if the Oilers stacked by way of those two players...then the 2009 Pens with Malkin and Gonchar are also stacked, right?

The Oilers depth immediately below McDavid and Draisaitl is quite bad...

That was obviously his point?

He was arguing Pens in 2009 aren't stacked anymore than Oilers in 2024 are. They each have 2 great players, but not great depth beyond

 

[MadLuke]

That team also had very good depth and no problem winning without Crosby whenever he was sitting out

That version of the Pens when they won an impressive 55% of their game in 2008 without Crosby, Malkin in those scored at a 130 points pace, in the 2008 nhl, that not necessarily a proof of great dept, than having Malkin scoring at a 56 goals -130 pts pace delivering.

Once Hossa get there is not that bad at all obviously but he was not there in 2009, in the 2009 playoff run the 5 forward with the most minutes after Malkin-Crosby:

J.Staal,
Guerin (38 years old)
Kunitz
Talbot
Cooke

Hard to imagine how badly things would go for a team spending to the max to have more bare supporting cast than that. Penguins scored 79 goals, Malkin-Crosby had 67 points. Old Fedotenko could help, Craig Adams, etc... they were not bad complementary low budget piece (obviously they won the cup, saying otherwise would be going against strong evidence) and they even matched well with the stars as it will become even cleared with time, but for a cup winner that would be on the lowest end.

Penguins scored 50 5v5 goals that post season, one of those 2 was on the ice for like 38 of those.

After Gonchar it was Scuderi-Orpik-Gill then young Letang and Mark Eaton.

Fleury is not bad, but can be quite shaky by time, .908 save percentage.

 

[Michael Farkas]

That was obviously his point?

He was arguing Pens in 2009 aren't stacked anymore than Oilers in 2024 are. They each have 2 great players, but not great depth beyond

He is saying the Oilers are stacked, is he not?

That Penguins third line of Cooke-Staal-Kennedy was one of the best third lines, from a "traditional" sense, in the DPE 2.0 for my money...

 

[JackSlater]

Pittsburgh 2009 was not very good, neither is Edmonton 2024 since we're talking Stanley Cup teams, and if the health situation of the two teams in 2024 had mirrored what Crosby found in 2009 Edmonton wins the Stanley Cup in five games. If McDavid had been more of a leader Draisaitl/Kane would have been healthy and Barkov/Forsling/random Panthers would have gotten hurt. Is it a blight on McDavid's record as a leader? I say yes! I see zero Messiers in his future!

 

[GreatGonzo]

He is saying the Oilers are stacked, is he not?

That Penguins third line of Cooke-Staal-Kennedy was one of the best third lines, from a "traditional" sense, in the DPE 2.0 for my money...

Staal and Kennedy also scored 2 goals a piece in the finals. Kennedy scored the GW and assisted on the first goal in a 2-1 game 6 victory. Staal also scored a SH goal in game 4 to tie the game and they ended up 2-2 on the series after being down 2-0.

They came up pretty big when it counted.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Pittsburgh 2009 was not very good, neither is Edmonton 2024 since we're talking Stanley Cup teams, and if the health situation of the two teams in 2024 had mirrored what Crosby found in 2009 Edmonton wins the Stanley Cup in five games. If McDavid had been more of a leader Draisaitl/Kane would have been healthy and Barkov/Forsling/random Panthers would have gotten hurt. Is it a blight on McDavid's record as a leader? I say yes! I see zero Messiers in his future!

What is this crap? Posters love finding ANY way to blame McDavid….the guy who had 42 points and 11 points in the finals. Desperate to say the least.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I think it's just a joke...leaders don't keep players healthy usually...

 

[JackSlater]

What is this crap? Posters love finding ANY way to blame McDavid….the guy who had 42 points and 11 points in the finals. Desperate to say the least.

Get back to me when McDavid has a Messier or two.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Get back to me when McDavid has a Messier or two.

So the Messier award is the end all-be all for who is and isn’t the best “leader”


Clearly there is no talking to you with that kind of logic. Enjoy your lone opinion.

 

[JackSlater]

So the Messier award is the end all-be all for who is and isn’t the best “leader”


Clearly there is no talking to you with that kind of logic. Enjoy your lone opinion.

If McDavid had the stones to guarantee a game 7 win beforehand we'd be looking at a different Stanley Cup winner and he'd probably have a couple copies of the sport's top prize as well. The Messier that is.

 

[jigglysquishy]

So the Messier award is the end all-be all for who is and isn’t the best “leader”


Clearly there is no talking to you with that kind of logic. Enjoy your lone opinion.

He's clearly joking and you aren't getting it.

 

[MadLuke]

What is this crap? Posters love finding ANY way to blame McDavid….the guy who had 42 points and 11 points in the finals. Desperate to say the least.

You do not think Beliveau would have hurt an key panthers player and healed his teammates (if they sit next to him on the bench) ?

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

So the Messier award is the end all-be all for who is and isn’t the best “leader”


Clearly there is no talking to you with that kind of logic. Enjoy your lone opinion.

Dude, turn on your sarcasm detector

 

[BadgerBruce]

You do not think Beliveau would have hurt a key panthers player and healed his teammates (if they sit next to him on the bench) ?

Beliveau attended a classical college run by jesuits. He had the power of healing. Sort of a francophone Jimmy Swaggert. McDavid, or so I’m told, skipped Sunday service to attend power skating as a boy. These decisions come back to haunt a man eventually.

 

[GreatGonzo]

If McDavid had the stones to guarantee a game 7 win beforehand we'd be looking at a different Stanley Cup winner and he'd probably have a couple copies of the sport's top prize as well. The Messier that is.

Because Messier didn’t have stacked teams behind him or anything for a majority of his career…

Your standards are beyond ridiculous

Dude, turn on your sarcasm detector

Because over an internet screen without tone, body language, and what not….its just so easy to determine

He's clearly joking and you aren't getting it.

I guess the jokes on me. Must have not been a very good joke

 

[tabness]

Because Messier didn’t have stacked teams behind him or anything for a majority of his career…

Your standards are beyond ridiculous

those teams were stacked and won ONLY because of Messier

• Gretzky got to play in a weak era with a bunch of superstars he's basically RNH
• Kurri was a soft euro who only had all those goals cause he played with Gretzky
• Coffey couldn't play D and only got free points on the run and gun Oilers
• Anderson was a joke he looked like Robin Williams
• Fuhr was a cokehead

These basketcase boys on the bus only had success because of the leadership of Messier, his gaze got everyone to get in line and got those pucks over the line (and stopped the ones from going in his own net cause you can't trust Coffey and Fuhr).

Hall of Fame Kevin Lowe was the only other legit player Messier had to work with.

 

[GreatGonzo]

those teams were stacked and won ONLY because of Messier

• Gretzky got to play in a weak era with a bunch of superstars he's basically RNH
• Kurri was a soft euro who only had all those goals cause he played with Gretzky
• Coffey couldn't play D and only got free points on the run and gun Oilers
• Anderson was a joke he looked like Robin Williams
• Fuhr was a cokehead

These basketcase boys on the bus only had success because of the leadership of Messier, his gaze got everyone to get in line and got those pucks over the line (and stopped the ones from going in his own net cause you can't trust Coffey and Fuhr).

Hall of Fame Kevin Lowe was the only other legit player Messier had to work with.

Oh I see, another “joke.” Or more “sarcasm”

Ha ha

 

[tabness]

Oh I see, another “joke.” Or more “sarcasm”

Ha ha

Did you ever watch Matilda as a kid? I remember reading the book and seeing the movie and watching Matilda move things with her gaze, and I immediately understood the importance of Messier's gaze.



The problem with McDavid is his gaze is just this defeated/disappointed gaze, nowhere near Messier gaze, it's literally one level above the Bouchard gaze, gotta come stronger than that to win.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Did you ever watch Matilda as a kid? I remember reading the book and seeing the movie and watching Matilda move things with her gaze, and I immediately understood the importance of Messier's gaze.

if only Messier could also control stuff with his mind….the possibilities

 

[MadLuke]

We are all joking, but can we really eat a single Lays chips ? Cannot deny the men leadership.

 

[gretzkyoilers]

Get back to me when McDavid has a Messier or two.

Which flavour of Messier?

 

[Crosby2010]

The guy just had a postseason where he broke Gretzky's single season playoff assist record. Wayne.................Gretzky. That guy. He broke one of his records. Sure Gretzky has 50 records better than that one, but let's take a look at the leader board here:

McDavid - 34
Gretzky - 31
Gretzky - 30
Gretzky - 29
Lemieux - 28
Kucherov - 27
Gretzky - 26

So I am pretty sure we'll be in our rocking chairs and McDavid still owns that record. Here are the single season playoff points records:

Gretzky - 47
Lemieux - 44
Gretzky - 43
McDavid - 42
Gretzky - 40
Gretzky - 38

Okay, so obviously you give the edge to Gretzky with all of this. Plus the PPG he is still mopping the floor with everyone (47 points in 18 games in 1985 for example) but still, no one is supposed to share almost anything with Gretzky. It just isn't supposed to ever happen. With all of this being said, it is this particular postseason that people are harping on McDavid about? The guy did almost everything he could. The only people that literally could have played better hockey in the postseason would be Gretzky, Mario in a couple of his years and you could probably count on Rocket being clutch with his goal scoring in certain particular years. Cup or no Cup, McDavid was astronomical in 2024 in the playoffs. All you needed was either one of Nuge, Drais or Bouchard to have one great game, just one, and that makes a difference. He's hoisting the Cup right now. But yeah, 42 points you can't criticize one bit. Ever.