Can Connor McDavid break up the "big 4"?

[jigglysquishy]

Because it was before the season started?

The NHL prevented players from playing for their national teams.

McDavid and MacKinnon weren't allowed to play for team Canada. Matthews wasn't allowed to play for the States.

For a kinda similar reason, the 1991 Canada Cup wasn't best on best.

Zero meaningful playoff anything until he got that go get yer cup trade

Great player high in list for sure but absolutely absolutely Crosby passed him with space ages ago

Being the best player on a Stanley Cup finalist twice isn't worth zero. That he pulled those teams as far as he did is a huge part of his legacy.

 

[GreatGonzo]

A world juniors and world championship?

That feels expected if you're Canadian player to win at least those two tournaments. But to be noted McDavid wasn't Mvp or even best forward in those two wins.

So…team achievements? Boy, it almost seems like that takes a team to win. Crazy…

You clearly said “anything.” And for a guy with a trophy case that rivals the all time greats…I wouldn’t say he hasn’t won anything.

Well, now you’re just being picky. Toews and Kessel won Olympic coward MVPs over Crosby. I guess Crosby isn’t that good…and obviously Kessel>McDavid.

 

[Lara Emily]

Being the best player on a Stanley Cup finalist twice isn't worth zero. That he pulled those teams as far as he did is a huge part of his legacy.

We're talking about a fight for placement not for acknowledgement of greatness

Crosby captained 3 Stanley Cup Championship teams

Bourque captained zero

These things matter when we're doing placement

 

[GreatGonzo]

Zero meaningful playoff anything until he got that go get yer cup trade

Great player high in list for sure but absolutely absolutely Crosby passed him with space ages ago

Bourque took his team to 2 finals where he faced very strong Edmonton teams. He also made the conference finals 2 years consecutively after that losing the the Pens both years. Not saying he’s ahead of Crosby, just that his playoff resume isn’t really his fault.

 

[Beljavskij]

So…team achievements? Boy, it almost seems like that takes a team to win. Crazy…

You clearly said “anything.” And for a guy with a trophy case that rivals the all time greats…I wouldn’t say he hasn’t won anything.

Well, now you’re just being picky. Toews and Kessel won Olympic coward MVPs over Crosby. I guess Crosby isn’t that good…and obviously Kessel>McDavid.

So, you're saying team achievements doesn't matter? Great players win, simple as that. It's not like McDavid has been handed a bunch of 4th liners to drag to the cup. He has had a pretty solid team the last two-three seasons.

Sure he has a great trophy case of individual awards.

Crosby does have an MVP of that 2016 (gimmick tournament) and best forward at WC 2006. So, I mean he has performed at the international level.

 

[GreatGonzo]

So, you're saying team achievements doesn't matter? Great players win, simple as that. It's not like McDavid has been handed a bunch of 4th liners to drag to the cup. He has had a pretty solid team the last two-three seasons.

Sure he has a great trophy case of individual awards.

Crosby does have an MVP of that 2016 (gimmick tournament) and best forward at WC 2006. So, I mean he has performed at the international level.

You really enjoy moving the goal posts don’t you

They absolutely matter when talking legacy, but to simply use TEAM achievements to argue one is better than the other is ridiculous. It’s also a slippery slope, but I’m sure you’re aware of that….for example, Brayden point isn’t a better player than Drai, but “team achievements.”

You went from “he hasn’t won anything” to…”oh ok cool, INDIVIDUAL awards, big whoop”

Again, good for him. Not taking anything away from Crosby. I’m just pointing out how faulty and all over the place your argument is. McDavid really hasn’t had the chances to perform at the international level like Crosby has, in case you didn’t realize that.

Also, funny how you’re just going to gloss over McDavids resume..is it as strong as Crosbys? No, but it’s nothing to scoff at.

 

[norrisnick]

So, you're saying team achievements doesn't matter? Great players win, simple as that. It's not like McDavid has been handed a bunch of 4th liners to drag to the cup. He has had a pretty solid team the last two-three seasons.

Sure he has a great trophy case of individual awards.

Crosby does have an MVP of that 2016 (gimmick tournament) and best forward at WC 2006. So, I mean he has performed at the international level.

When comparing individual players? Yes, that's correct.

Otherwise I'd better see a whole bunch of people stack Beliveau up ahead of Crosby. Very similar individual accolades, but one has a f*** ton more team success...

 

[Lara Emily]

Bourque took his team to 2 finals where he faced very strong Edmonton teams. He also made the conference finals 2 years consecutively after that losing the the Pens both years. Not saying he’s ahead of Crosby, just that his playoff resume isn’t really his fault.

Yeah I shouldn't have said zero that was me being too extra

My bad.

But ultimately it's major separation factor

 

[GreatGonzo]

Yeah I shouldn't have said zero that was me being too extra

My bad.

But ultimately it's major separation factor

Again, I get it. He didn’t achieve much in the playoffs before Colorado, but he was going against some juggernaut teams

 

[Lara Emily]

Again, I get it. He didn’t achieve much in the playoffs before Colorado, but he was going against some juggernaut teams

Yup ultimately my point was that I think playoff success alone makes it so that Crosby is well above Bourque that ultimately it's not really a debatable competition there.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

2016 WCOH

Literally the worst answer you could've chosen.

The WCOH where he was on a mickey mouse "under 23 north America" team while going against full nation teams?

I mean hell it's not like McDavid has a WC, WJC and U18 WC gold or anything... oh wait

 

[Beljavskij]

You really enjoy moving the goal posts don’t you

They absolutely matter when talking legacy, but to simply use TEAM achievements to argue one is better than the other is ridiculous. It’s also a slippery slope, but I’m sure you’re aware of that….for example, Brayden point isn’t a better player than Drai, but “team achievements.”

You went from “he hasn’t won anything” to…”oh ok cool, INDIVIDUAL awards, big whoop”

Again, good for him. Not taking anything away from Crosby. I’m just pointing out how faulty and all over the place your argument is. McDavid really hasn’t had the chances to perform at the international level like Crosby has, in case you didn’t realize that.

Also, funny how you’re just going to gloss over McDavids resume..is it as strong as Crosbys? No, but it’s nothing to scoff at.

Simply using INDIVIDUAL achievements to argue for ones legacy isn't exactly a great argument.
Imagine Lebrons place in NBA history if he had the same stats, but never won a final. He would never be considered a top 2-3 player in history. Just as McD never vill be considered a top 4-5 player because you can always bring up the argument that he is not a winner.

Hasn't won anything is referring to winning as a team, not individual awards.

A legacy should be judged on both individual and team achievements. It should include peak, prime, longevity, stats, individual awards, team achievements, the eye test, comparison to peers, tangibles not included in stats like leadership or importance to the game etc.

McD is a great player. But it remains to be seen how great he is.
Crosby is a great player. But he is also a great winner.

 

[Beljavskij]

When comparing individual players? Yes, that's correct.

Otherwise I'd better see a whole bunch of people stack Beliveau up ahead of Crosby. Very similar individual accolades, but one has a f*** ton more team success...

Se my answer above.

Maybe add the context that Beliveau was for the better part of his career playing in a six team league, with no international players? On a juggernaut Montreal team that dominated this time period...

You can't really the number of cups now and then. It's like Bill Russell isn't greatest NBA player bcause he has the most rings, but he did win. And that is important. Winning is important. It is what the sport is about.

If McD would go on to win 4 cups in his career from now that would be VERY impressive. Then I think we could basically pencil him in as the nr.2 player just behind Gretzky. But even adding just one cup would raise him a whole new level.

 

[norrisnick]

Se my answer above.

Maybe add the context that Beliveau was for the better part of his career playing in a six team league, with no international players? On a juggernaut Montreal team that dominated this time period...

You can't really the number of cups now and then. It's like Bill Russell isn't greatest NBA player bcause he has the most rings, but he did win. And that is important. Winning is important. It is what the sport is about.

If McD would go on to win 4 cups in his career from now that would be VERY impressive. Then I think we could basically pencil him in as the nr.2 player just behind Gretzky. But even adding just one cup would raise him a whole new level.

Since when is context allowed?

It's a binary winner vs not winner scenario I thought?

 

[GreatGonzo]

Simply using INDIVIDUAL achievements to argue for ones legacy isn't exactly a great argument.
Imagine Lebrons place in NBA history if he had the same stats, but never won a final. He would never be considered a top 2-3 player in history. Just as McD never vill be considered a top 4-5 player because you can always bring up the argument that he is not a winner.

Hasn't won anything is referring to winning as a team, not individual awards.

A legacy should be judged on both individual and team achievements. It should include peak, prime, longevity, stats, individual awards, team achievements, the eye test, comparison to peers, tangibles not included in stats like leadership or importance to the game etc.

McD is a great player. But it remains to be seen how great he is.
Crosby is a great player. But he is also a great winner.

It’s not the end all, be all…but it’s most certainly more logical than comparing cups. I’m sure you can understand that…

The dude just put up 100 assists in a season, broke Gretzkys playoff Assist record, and recorded 42 points in the post season(most ever by a player not named Gretzky and Lemieux)….and yet none of that is good enough for you, sounds like a personal problem.

“A great winner.” Crazy considering they were dying the same thing about Toews for a few years. It’s easier to win with better teams around you. That’s why it’s more of a TEAM achievement.

 

[Beljavskij]

Since when is context allowed?

It's a binary winner vs not winner scenario I thought?

Haha ok. So Henri Richard is the greatest player then. Glad we could settle that.

 

[norrisnick]

Haha ok. So Henri Richard is the greatest player then. Glad we could settle that.

I'm not the one arguing that a lack of a cup invalidates a resume.

 

[Beljavskij]

It’s not the end all, be all…but it’s most certainly more logical than comparing cups. I’m sure you can understand that…

The dude just put up 100 assists in a season, broke Gretzkys playoff Assist record, and recorded 42 points in the post season(most ever by a player not named Gretzky and Lemieux)….and yet none of that is good enough for you, sounds like a personal problem.

“A great winner.” Crazy considering they were dying the same thing about Toews for a few years. It’s easier to win with better teams around you. That’s why it’s more of a TEAM achievement.

Yes, I hear your argument. Just trying to create a nuanced view of the question "Can McD break up the big 4". It remains to be seen. But right now I don't think it is clear cut that he is even considered above Crosby. If he won the cup that would probably be a different argument.

Yeah, but so did Kucherov. We are in a higher scoring environment now that we were 10 years ago. What's the ceiling? What happens if Kucherov has a 150+ point season next season and sweeps the awards two years in row. Does he enter into the conversation of a top 10?
We are in an interesting time, but McDs achievements has to be viewed in comparison to his peers.

I actually like McD, and enjoy watching him, just think he is being hyped a little too much, especially in comparison to Crosby.

And please, don't mention Toews in this discussion. But hopefully you agree that some things can't be quantified as silly as it sound. Would you rather have Crosby or McD to lead a team if your life depended on it? I'd take Crosby.

I'm not the one arguing that a lack of a cup invalidates a resume.

I'm not even sure what you are arguing anymore?

 

[norrisnick]

I'm not even sure what you are arguing anymore?

Does team success matter or not?

You can't stack up team achievements to prop up lesser individual accolades for one player, Ie Crosby over McDavid and then just not for Beliveau over Crosby. And Beliveau's individual accolades are far closer to Crosby's than Crosby's are to McDavid's...

Be consistent.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Crosby was not necessarily deployed in an all offense mode but more in a role like Bergeron.

That is blatantly false.

Bergeron was PKing for 2 minutes per game and taking over 50% defensive zone starts early in his career, while also being deployed often in a shutdown role.

Crosby flat out doesn't PK in the playoffs, and barely PKs in the regular season, and actually most of his PK minutes are compiled 10 seconds at a time when Crosby hops over the boards after he real penalty killers get the final year.

Crosby has never shut anyone down.

Crosby's career average zone starts are 66% - which is a typical percentage for an offense-only player.

 

[Beljavskij]

Does team success matter or not?

You can't stack up team achievements to prop up lesser individual accolades for one player, Ie Crosby over McDavid and then just not for Beliveau over Crosby. And Beliveau's individual accolades are far closer to Crosby's than Crosby's are to McDavid's...

Be consistent.

Of course it does.

But apparently context doesn't matter to you like how a six team league might be different to a 30 team league. Feels like a pretty simple argument to grasp.

But to move it on, where do you have McD in all time ranking as of now with all the info of their careers so far?

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I believe the term @Hockey Outsider used once was that ranking McDavid is like trying to catch a falling knife.

I can't take credit for that, someone else said it, and they used the phrase "projecting a rocket's course while it's mid-flight" (which feels completely accurate).

 

[norrisnick]

Of course it does.

But apparently context doesn't matter to you like how a six team league might be different to a 30 team league. Feels like a pretty simple argument to grasp.

But to move it on, where do you have McD in all time ranking as of now with all the info of their careers so far?

It's weird how context only ever comes into play in one direction...

Barring a catastrophic interruption to an expected aging curve for an all-time great player? 5. If he has freakish longevity at this current (last 3 seasons) level for 5+ more years and then a normal aging curve, I can see him passing Lemieux for 4. I have trouble imagining what it would take to step over Orr or Howe and he'd have to significantly improve over what he's done to date to approach Gretzky.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

The NHL prevented players from playing for their national teams.

McDavid and MacKinnon weren't allowed to play for team Canada. Matthews wasn't allowed to play for the States.

For a kinda similar reason, the 1991 Canada Cup wasn't best on best.


Being the best player on a Stanley Cup finalist twice isn't worth zero. That he pulled those teams as far as he did is a huge part of his legacy.

Yet the average level of player was almost certainly higher than any Olympics.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Yet the average level of player was almost certainly higher than any Olympics.

You fundamentally misunderstand what best on best is.

If Canada is structurally prohibited from icing it's best roster it's just a gimmick tournament.

McDavid has never played in a best on best tournament.