Can Connor McDavid break up the "big 4"?

[WarriorofTime]

Why even discuss Crosby? McDavid's blown him in the dust already. The all time debate, once it's all said and done, will be McDavid vs. Lemieux, and there will be objectively good arguments either way.

 

[seventieslord]

Bourque in front of Crosby ridiculous

Not one of the first two I'd single out on that list.

I'd have Crosby ahead of Ray too, but I at least have time for that argument.

 

[Lara Emily]

Why even discuss Crosby? McDavid's blown him in the dust already. The all time debate, once it's all said and done, will be McDavid vs. Lemieux, and there will be objectively good arguments either way.

Well that's done before we start

It's Lemieux

 

[jigglysquishy]

Looking back at the season+playoffs as a whole, this definitely wasn't the year where McDavid slid into the top 4. It wasn't the year he hit 5. But I think he added tremendous value this year and catapulted himself into a top 10 position.

This was his best playoffs. And arguably the best whole playoff run we've seen since Lemieux. I'm not going to compliment his game 7, but I do think this erased a lot of doubts about him.

I hope he still eventually wins the Cup, but I do think a 42 point Conn Smythe in a loss is hardly something to be held against him.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yeah, this is the trouble with evaluating players on a historic basis one shift at a time.

If Zach Hyman doesn't slam the puck into Eetu Luostarinen's (sp?) crotch with 7 minutes left, McDavid picks up an assist after getting checked off the puck by Forsling, McDavid gets an assist...it's suddenly a heroic effort. The whole conversation about this player's career changes. When really, he's a 27 year old player that is adding fast to his all-time resume and has lots more to write...

He dragged this 1996 Penguins-type team, maybe they're not even that good...to within an inch of winning the Cup...and got a Conn Smythe Trophy that can only be filed under "Wow" among all the Smythes ever. He also had a ho-hum 100 assists this year...things are still going his way.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Yeah, this is the trouble with evaluating players on a historic basis one shift at a time.

If Zach Hyman doesn't slam the puck into Eetu Luostarinen's (sp?) crotch with 7 minutes left, McDavid picks up an assist after getting checked off the puck by Forsling, McDavid gets an assist...it's suddenly a heroic effort. The whole conversation about this player's career changes. When really, he's a 27 year old player that is adding fast to his all-time resume and has lots more to write...

I believe the term @Hockey Outsider used once was that ranking McDavid is like trying to catch a falling knife.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Crosby gets a definite edge over McDavid for defense, and those others, and will get a larger edge likely as McDavid ages. But the bigger edge is deployment vs. those three as Crosby was not necessarily deployed in an all offense mode but more in a role like Bergeron.

This is absolutely ridiculous the defense of Crosby continues to take on a life of its own.

 

[Beljavskij]

There was always an attempted narrative, but it didn't align with the play on the ice. '06 clearly Ovechkin. '07 clearly Crosby, '08-'10 clearly Ovechkin. After 2010, Ovechkin dipped, yes, but Crosby also barely played for three seasons. So again, no prolonged reign can start before 2013 because prior to that others were better and by 2017 he's running into McDavid.

If you slide far enough forward to avoid McDavid and ignore that Ovechkin was better their first five seasons, sure... 10 years.

Don't really agree with you.
Sure Ovechkin was slightly better in '06. However it should be noted that Crosby was two years younger and Ovie played his third season as a pro.
'08-'10 it's really close. I mean Crosby missed 34 games in '07-'09, otherwise they are really close. With Crosby having significantly more playoff success with two really strong runs. I feel I would still give the edge to Crosby.
The only season that Ovechkin is clearly ahead is '10 season when he scores 109 in 72 games. Great season by Ovie.

But then... common. In '10-'11 Crosby is at his best. About to runaway with the scoring title. Gets injured after 41 games. Is there any doubt in your mind that Crosby wouldn't have won the scoring title that season? If he had only scored at a 1p/g pace for the rest of the season he still would have won. And this was at a time when his scoring average was 1.35/g.

'11-'12 season impossible to say what could have happened.

'12-'13 season, clearly Crosby was superior this season, missed the last 12 games and lost the scoring title by 3 points.

Clearly Crosby was having more success and more consistent high-level of play during this period than any other player in the league at the time.

Why even discuss Crosby? McDavid's blown him in the dust already. The all time debate, once it's all said and done, will be McDavid vs. Lemieux, and there will be objectively good arguments either way.

Has he?

He puts up good numbers but he doesn't win anything.

Also Lemieux at his peak is a better player than McDavid at his. However it is possible that McDavid will have a better career than Mario (depending on winning of course), but that remains to be seen.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Why the hell is Ovechkin in that list lol

Because he's in the top 20 of all time? Did you read my post or just react?

I listed ALL of the players I have in the 5-20 range, not in order, just listed them. Like I said, I have Crosby at 10 but you can make an argument for any order really among those players

 

[MadLuke]

He puts up good numbers but he doesn't win anything.

While obviously true, lost only to solid cup winners the last 3 years in a row, it is far from being shameful.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Bourque in front of Crosby ridiculous

13x AS-1
6x AS-2
15x Top 3 in Norris: 1,1,1,1,1,2,2,2,2,2,2,3,3,3,3

Only 3x in his career was he not top 5 in Norris and not AS-1 or AS-2, out of 22 seasons. He's at worst the 3rd best defenseman of all time. No, having him in front of Crosby is not ridiculous.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Don't really agree with you.
Sure Ovechkin was slightly better in '06. However it should be noted that Crosby was two years younger and Ovie played his third season as a pro.
'08-'10 it's really close. I mean Crosby missed 34 games in '07-'09, otherwise they are really close. With Crosby having significantly more playoff success with two really strong runs. I feel I would still give the edge to Crosby.
The only season that Ovechkin is clearly ahead is '10 season when he scores 109 in 72 games. Great season by Ovie.

But then... common. In '10-'11 Crosby is at his best. About to runaway with the scoring title. Gets injured after 41 games. Is there any doubt in your mind that Crosby wouldn't have won the scoring title that season? If he had only scored at a 1p/g pace for the rest of the season he still would have won. And this was at a time when his scoring average was 1.35/g.

'11-'12 season impossible to say what could have happened.

'12-'13 season, clearly Crosby was superior this season, missed the last 12 games and lost the scoring title by 3 points.

Clearly Crosby was having more success and more consistent high-level of play during this period than any other player in the league at the time.



Has he?

He puts up good numbers but he doesn't win anything.

Also Lemieux at his peak is a better player than McDavid at his. However it is possible that McDavid will have a better career than Mario (depending on winning of course), but that remains to be seen.

Ovechkins from 2008-10 peaked higher than Crosby did and was better those years. Of course, Crosby started taking over right after 2010.

Anything?….you sure about that?..

 

[Beljavskij]

While obviously true, lost only to solid cup winners the last 3 years in a row, it is far from being shameful.

I agree! I think McDavid has somewhat proven this season that he can perform at a top-5 level.

But I also think that to be considered a top-5 all time player you should at least have won one cup and maybe even one best-on-best tournament. Great players find ways to win. Would you agree?

I feel like McDavid has a window of next season also, after that it is only going to get harder and harder. Remember Gretzky, Howe, Orr and Lemieux won all their cups before age 27. Crosby won all of his cups before age 30.

McDavid will be 28 next season.

 

[jigglysquishy]

maybe even one best-on-best tournament. Great players finds ways tow in
.

For the record, the NHL has not allowed McDavid to play in a best on best tournament yet. And he won't be eligible for two more years.

It's like criticizing Gordie Howe for not being the Russians in the 50s.

 

[Beljavskij]

Ovechkins from 2008-10 peaked higher than Crosby did and was better those years. Of course, Crosby started taking over right after 2010.

Anything?….you sure about that?..

A world juniors and world championship?

That feels expected if you're Canadian player to win at least those two tournaments. But to be noted McDavid wasn't Mvp or even best forward in those two wins.

 

[norrisnick]

I agree! I think McDavid has somewhat proven this season that he can perform at a top-5 level.

But I also think that to be considered a top-5 all time player you should at least have won one cup and maybe even one best-on-best tournament. Great players finds ways tow in. Would you agree?

I feel like McDavid has a window of next season also, after that it is only going to get harder and harder. Remember Gretzky, Howe, Orr and Lemieux won all their cups before age 27. Crosby won all of his cups before age 30.

McDavid will be 28 next season.

Which best on best should McDavid have found a way to win?

 

[Beljavskij]

For the record, the NHL has not allowed McDavid to play in a best on best tournament yet. And he won't be eligible for two more years.

It's like criticizing Gordie Howe for not being the Russians in the 50s.

I know! Not his fault.

And it's really a shame that the NHL has robbed us of a best-on-best format for almost 10 years now. Would it really be so bad to let the players be in the olympics for two weeks every 4th year?

 

[lextune]

I always hate the debate around leadership. What, specifically, has Crosby done as a leader? What, specifically, has McDavid failed to do?

It certainly is tough, but not completely impossible, to quantify. How about late/OT/clutch goals? (McDavid already has 2 playoff OT goals to Crosby's 1).

How about 1st goal of the game? I actually think about them a lot as a sneaky clutch stat.

In Crosby's first Cup run, (thus his second trip to the Finals). In each of the first three rounds he had games where he opened the scoring. I recall him setting the record, it was 6, (7?) different games where he set the tone right out of the gate with the first goal of the game. (Does Crosby still have that record I wonder? I just remember it being mentioned then, and of course it felt like he was scoring first every night).

Of course we all know, he was then a little underwhelming in the Finals, but his team won.

McDavid has now led his team to a Final, and outperformed Crosby statistically in the final round specifically, but his team lost. He did lead his team quite well imo, but it wasn't enough.

Crosby lost his first final too of course, with a lesser performance in the Finals again.

It is possible that McDavid will end up the better player (I believe he's basically there already), but remain not as good a "leader" as Crosby.

 

[lextune]

So exactly the same as Gretzky, Mario and Crosby?

At least 99 and 66 were terrifying penalty killers, lol.

 

[WarriorofTime]

For the record, the NHL has not allowed McDavid to play in a best on best tournament yet. And he won't be eligible for two more years.

It's like criticizing Gordie Howe for not being the Russians in the 50s.

Yeah, international stuff is just fluff. It's basically resume padding.

Best-on-best Olympics is the international "gold" standard (heh) but there's only been 5 competitions to date. Fundamentally, that's what like 30 games per country and only six every four years when they actually have competition. Meh. Then there's the other stuff, like non best-on-best olympics, world championships, best on best "Canada Cups", best on best "World" Cups, some people even throw in junior competition...

It's all fine and dandy, good to watch and have some international bragging rights at stage, but at the end of the day, drawing too much out of them, especially for individual players never made much sense for me.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Which best on best should McDavid have found a way to win?

2016 WCOH

 

[jigglysquishy]

2016 WCOH

Nobody considers it best on best

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Nobody considers it best on best

Because it was before the season started?

 

[Beljavskij]

Because it was before the season started?

It was a gimmick-tournament.

 

[Lara Emily]

13x AS-1
6x AS-2
15x Top 3 in Norris: 1,1,1,1,1,2,2,2,2,2,2,3,3,3,3

Only 3x in his career was he not top 5 in Norris and not AS-1 or AS-2, out of 22 seasons. He's at worst the 3rd best defenseman of all time. No, having him in front of Crosby is not ridiculous.

Zero meaningful playoff anything until he got that go get yer cup trade

Great player high in list for sure but absolutely absolutely Crosby passed him with space ages ago