C William Nylander (2014, 8th, TOR) V [Mod warning in OP]

[Say What]

Bottom line....you guys have a damn good hockey player. I'm guessing it will be well worth the wait (however long/short that is). Be patient.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

OK, I think I've got you.
You're saying he had a high hurdle to meet , not that the Leafs wouldn't have opened up a spot for him if he was ready.

Yeah exactly!

 

[Jacquestrapless]

Pretty sure it's just asset management at this point. He would have started other than the fact we have deadwood we need to get rid of(i.e trade) Unfortunately, this would mean Bozak, Holland, Spaling, need to start ahead of Nylander. We still rebuilding-> need dem draft picks. Kadri has 1C. Nylander ain't gonna play 3,4C. Bozak has 2C. Now he can replace bozak, but we need bozak gone so we gotta showcase him in hopes someone will take him. Were we to scratch him, Bozak would stay on the sidelines thus lowering any possibility of a trade. We can't move either of them to the wings because we also have players on the wings we need to get rid of.

When injuries hit, or when TD comes around, Nylander may have a chance to come up. Otherwise, it's a #s game at this point. His ELC slides this year as well, so this + showcase our players -> is much too good a scenario to pass up.

FWIW, I think he should stay down to take advantage of the year his contract slides. Over-ripen as they say

 

[Say What]

I'll never understand how the Q is better than pro leagues?

Pro leagues = a business. Players may cheat for results/stats. Teams want to win.

The CHL is geared to develop players for the next level (in North America). They teach systems etc., so that players are in the best possible position to excel.

To each his own. Pro's and con's with both.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Pretty sure it's just asset management at this point. He would have started other than the fact we have deadwood we need to get rid of(i.e trade) Unfortunately, this would mean Bozak, Holland, Spaling, need to start ahead of Nylander. We still rebuilding-> need dem draft picks. Kadri has 1C. Nylander ain't gonna play 3,4C. Bozak has 2C. Now he can replace bozak, but we need bozak gone so we gotta showcase him in hopes someone will take him. Were we to scratch him, Bozak would stay on the sidelines thus lowering any possibility of a trade. We can't move either of them to the wings because we also have players on the wings we need to get rid of.

When injuries hit, or when TD comes around, Nylander may have a chance to come up. Otherwise, it's a #s game at this point. His ELC slides this year as well, so this + showcase our players -> is much too good a scenario to pass up.

FWIW, I think he should stay down to take advantage of the year his contract slides. Over-ripen as they say

Not sure I agree. I think the main factor is that they want to put him in the best possible position to develop into a #1C. And I think they view playing #1C in Marlies as better for that end than being #3RW with the Leafs.

But that's just me guessing.

 

[bobbyt 91*]

OK, I think I've got you.
You're saying he had a high hurdle to meet , not that the Leafs wouldn't have opened up a spot for him if he was ready.

I guess different teams have a different definition of ready. However I have noticed that teams who expect to have a decent year will play younsters but teams who expect to be bad tend to wait.

 

[GTA]

Pro leagues = a business. Players may cheat for results/stats. Teams want to win.

The CHL is geared to develop players for the next level (in North America). They teach systems etc., so that players are in the best possible position to excel.

To each his own. Pro's and con's with both.

The CHL is a business also....how do you think they are structured? As nonprofits?

They have the exact same MO as pro leagues, just with a different set of rules.

Are you just making stuff up lol?

 

[Cotton]

The most telling part of the article, which for some reason you left out.



Nylander has a lot to work on according to Babcock, I wish he would have been working on it in the CHL, instead of getting strong in Sweden playing 22 year olds or whatever.

Then he'd be a leaf right now.

I disagree, that part was already posted, the most important part was that he implied Nylander was already NHL ready, but that he wants him to be "Over-ready".

That's where the disconnect is occurring with you I think. Nylander being sent back to the AHL was the plan the whole time. Referencing Babcock saying he could earn a spot is taking it to the Nth degree because Leafs management had a marinating agenda before Babs even signed on. They are rebuilding, they knew the Leafs would have a terrible season, having a top prospect on the roster during that doesn't benefit him.

And of course he has things to work on. It would be a silly notion that he doesn't, but the fact is there a kids being given roster spots who also have things to work on and are frankly not even as good as Nylander. Ehlers is a prime example.

Still a great prospect, I just think some of the hype about him got out of hand amongst Leaf fans. He clearly still has things that he needs to improve.

So does McCann and Virtanen, and many other prospects who are both inferior to Nylander, and getting roster spots. But Toronto isn't doing it that way, they are protecting their kids from the tire-fire. It's not that difficult.

Toronto is doing the right think. Nylander is very good but needs AHL time. Could be in NHL but for what reason?

Ehlers looked better in preseason and better track record, so thats why he made NHL now. Not much impact on who ends up better

Ehlers didn't look better at all, he had both good and bad showings.

I'd prefer to go by what Mike Babcock says, rather than your eye test.
No offence.

It's more like everyone who's watched him's eye-test. You are very much the minority, and Babcock never said he wasn't NHL ready anyway.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

I guess different teams have a different definition of ready. However I have noticed that teams who expect to have a decent year will play younsters but teams who expect to be bad tend to wait.

Hard to generalize. Really good teams they probably only carry one or two rookies depending on how close they are to the cap.
A lot of weaker teams play a lot of rookies as they view it as a building year.
It really depends on the team and the particular player.

 

[A4T1L6]

quick question, who do you think will be #1c in a couple years, Nylander or Marner? Honestly i think our center depth is set for the next decade with Nylander, Marner (whoever plays C, one will prob switch to wing), kadri as #2 and Gauthier as a solid #3. thoughts?

 

[bobbyt 91*]

Hard to generalize. Really good teams they probably only carry one or two rookies depending on how close they are to the cap.
A lot of weaker teams play a lot of rookies as they view it as a building year.
It really depends on the team and the particular player.

to be more precise top end top 6 youngsters have a better shot making better teams cuz they can be sheltered.

Look at Virt, McCann, Ehlers, L.D etc all 3 are players that have made their teams yet Nylander at worst was = to them

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

quick question, who do you think will be #1c in a couple years, Nylander or Marner? Honestly i think our center depth is set for the next decade with Nylander, Marner (whoever plays C, one will prob switch to wing), kadri as #2 and Gauthier as a solid #3. thoughts?

I think Marner will be more effective as a wing in the NHL than a C. I don't know where he'll end up though.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

quick question, who do you think will be #1c in a couple years, Nylander or Marner? Honestly i think our center depth is set for the next decade with Nylander, Marner (whoever plays C, one will prob switch to wing), kadri as #2 and Gauthier as a solid #3. thoughts?

I'm not sold on Gauthier as a solid third. Probably more suited on the fourth line. The top two should be solid though.

 

[AINEC*]

I'm not sold on Gauthier as a solid third. Probably more suited on the fourth line. The top two should be solid though.

I'm in the same boat, I see Gauthier being a really solid 4C.

 

[Atomos2]

Can't wait to watch him tomorrow.

 

[Pyrophorus]

Pro leagues = a business. Players may cheat for results/stats. Teams want to win.

The CHL is geared to develop players for the next level (in North America). They teach systems etc., so that players are in the best possible position to excel.

To each his own. Pro's and con's with both.

Lets go back.
How does one league (a junior one) show a better track record of player, than someone who played pro?

 

[snizzbone*]

Another thing with Ehlers is that he didnt have the option of going to the AHL. He had already said he'd be gone to Switzerland for the year if he didn't make the Jets. So Nylander/Ehlers could have been 'the same' in preseason and Ehlers wuuld be more likely to make it just because of that. Not to mention Ehlers is a winger and can be sheltered behind better players while Nylander would probably be one of our better offensive players. Much safer route would be to put Nylander down and away from the spotlight for the time being.

Dubas quote, not as exact quote but around what he said: "We don't want our players going up and down between the AHL and NHL. When a player is called up to the NHL, it'll be because he can stay in the NHL."

So basically, Nylander isn't going to the NHL until its 100% that he is ready, as they don't want to send players back and fourth and mess with their confidence. Dubas said that last year they did this with Percy and it really messed his head up and he admitted it was a big mistake for them to do that.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Another thing with Ehlers is that he didnt have the option of going to the AHL. He had already said he'd be gone to Switzerland for the year if he didn't make the Jets. So Nylander/Ehlers could have been 'the same' in preseason and Ehlers wuuld be more likely to make it just because of that. Not to mention Ehlers is a winger and can be sheltered behind better players while Nylander would probably be one of our better offensive players. Much safer route would be to put Nylander down and away from the spotlight for the time being.

Dubas quote, not as exact quote but around what he said: "We don't want our players going up and down between the AHL and NHL. When a player is called up to the NHL, it'll be because he can stay in the NHL."

So basically, Nylander isn't going to the NHL until its 100% that he is ready, as they don't want to send players back and fourth and mess with their confidence. Dubas said that last year they did this with Percy and it really messed his head up and he admitted it was a big mistake for them to do that.

Winnipeg flat out has a better team then Toronto. A lot easier for Ehlers to make the transition.

 

[Tomas W]

quick question, who do you think will be #1c in a couple years, Nylander or Marner? Honestly i think our center depth is set for the next decade with Nylander, Marner (whoever plays C, one will prob switch to wing), kadri as #2 and Gauthier as a solid #3. thoughts?

My only worry for Nylander is that I think he might still be a bit fancy pantsy about playing D as in working his but off to cover up for turnovers/transitions. Actually he does got a good tool for a great defensive forward, and that is he is good at lifting up opponent's sticks and steal pucks, but he does like to have the puck much more than skate hard without it. Since he wants to play center he need to develop a good 2-way play. As a playmaker Nylander is great of course though.

 

[The Podium]

My only worry for Nylander is that I think he might still be a bit fancy pantsy about playing D as in working his but off to cover up for turnovers/transitions. Actually he does got a good tool for a great defensive forward, and that is he is good at lifting up opponent's sticks and steal pucks, but he does like to have the puck much more than skate hard without it. Since he wants to play center he need to develop a good 2-way play.

Thats exactly it. He has the tools and the tool box to be a great defensive player, just seems to get lazy when he doesn't have the puck. This isn't someone who doesn't know where to be defensively, and once Keefe and Babcock drill it in him, his defensive game will not be a problem.

 

[WTFMAN99]

My only worry for Nylander is that I think he might still be a bit fancy pantsy about playing D as in working his but off to cover up for turnovers/transitions. Actually he does got a good tool for a great defensive forward, and that is he is good at lifting up opponent's sticks and steal pucks, but he does like to have the puck much more than skate hard without it. Since he wants to play center he need to develop a good 2-way play. As a playmaker Nylander is great of course though.

He won't be able to float with Keefe in the AHL, or Babcock in the NHL. I am actually really happy we have Babcock for this reason. We won't have anymore guys like Kessel (super talented, but won't do the things needed to actually win anything).

I plan on being at the Ricoh a couple of times a month to see how he is progressing along with a few of our other prospects.

 

[Whileee]

Pretty sure it's just asset management at this point. He would have started other than the fact we have deadwood we need to get rid of(i.e trade) Unfortunately, this would mean Bozak, Holland, Spaling, need to start ahead of Nylander. We still rebuilding-> need dem draft picks. Kadri has 1C. Nylander ain't gonna play 3,4C. Bozak has 2C. Now he can replace bozak, but we need bozak gone so we gotta showcase him in hopes someone will take him. Were we to scratch him, Bozak would stay on the sidelines thus lowering any possibility of a trade. We can't move either of them to the wings because we also have players on the wings we need to get rid of.

When injuries hit, or when TD comes around, Nylander may have a chance to come up. Otherwise, it's a #s game at this point. His ELC slides this year as well, so this + showcase our players -> is much too good a scenario to pass up.

FWIW, I think he should stay down to take advantage of the year his contract slides. Over-ripen as they say

If the logic for keeping Nylander out of the NHL is because they are showcasing deadwood for a trade, then that's a goofy strategy. Nylander's development is way more important than trying to get a bit better trade return on Bozak. It's not like other teams don't have a scouting report on Bozak.

The Jets have been very successful at starting rookies on the wing for part of an NHL season and then transitioning them to C once they are more used to the pace and style of play. Scheifele and Lowry both started on the wing and were very effective centers by the end of their rookie season.

The best reason to have Nylander in the NHL is to let him develop to the point that he'll be more effective / confident in the NHL. Having his ELC slide is another plausible reason.

 

[Whileee]

Another thing with Ehlers is that he didnt have the option of going to the AHL. He had already said he'd be gone to Switzerland for the year if he didn't make the Jets. So Nylander/Ehlers could have been 'the same' in preseason and Ehlers wuuld be more likely to make it just because of that. Not to mention Ehlers is a winger and can be sheltered behind better players while Nylander would probably be one of our better offensive players. Much safer route would be to put Nylander down and away from the spotlight for the time being.

Dubas quote, not as exact quote but around what he said: "We don't want our players going up and down between the AHL and NHL. When a player is called up to the NHL, it'll be because he can stay in the NHL."

So basically, Nylander isn't going to the NHL until its 100% that he is ready, as they don't want to send players back and fourth and mess with their confidence. Dubas said that last year they did this with Percy and it really messed his head up and he admitted it was a big mistake for them to do that.

I think that if Ehlers was eligible to go to the AHL, he might have started the year there. The Jets obviously didn't want him back in junior.

But he certainly didn't look much out of place in his first game, leading the Jets in shots on goal and generally playing a good game, getting stronger as the game progressed. I think Nylander would be fine at the NHL level, but maybe they are concerned with him playing in a situation where they might not have much success this year.

 

[Say What]

The CHL is a business also....how do you think they are structured? As nonprofits?

They have the exact same MO as pro leagues, just with a different set of rules.

Are you just making stuff up lol?

Really? You better tell the players in the CHL, because they aren't making Pro league $$. The question I was trying to help answer was about 'player' development. Junior vs Pro. When a player is being paid (judged) on performance, the results are often different.

 

[Say What]

Lets go back.
How does one league (a junior one) show a better track record of player, than someone who played pro?

I didn't claim that one league shows a better track record. I simply stated that if a player is being paid to produce results, it may hurt their development. Some players will cheat the small details (and are allowed to) for the betterment of the team, winning games. Those bad habits can follow you to the best league in the world (NHL).

Having said that, player's in the CHL develop bad habits also (just not based on living up to a pro contract). IMO there's less pressure and/or incentive to cut corners in junior. You're only hurting your own development. Also, playing a European style game on bigger ice, doesn't really help you in North America. There's going to need to be an adjustment. No?

But then, some believe playing against men (as opposed to your peers) is better for development. Again, to each his own.