C William Nylander (2014, 8th, TOR) V [Mod warning in OP]

[gifted88]

Because that's no Detroit system, nor is it any teams. A player is NHL ready if they earn a roster spot. Nylander did not, I personally believe he would have had a better chance and be further a long in development had he played in the CHL., for reasons already indicated.

Gaining 15 lbs won't improve your defence.

An "NHL ready" player is someone's opinion, not a black and white type of thing. You could argue there are AHL, CHL, or even overseas players that could make the jump to the NHL right now.

If it's your opinion that Nylander isn't NHL ready that's fine. But there is sufficient evidence that the Leafs never intended him to make the team if he was ready or not.

 

[Pi]

An "NHL ready" player is someone's opinion, not a black and white type of thing. You could argue there are AHL, CHL, or even overseas players that could make the jump to the NHL right now.

If it's your opinion that Nylander isn't NHL ready that's fine. But there is sufficient evidence that the Leafs never intended him to make the team if he was ready or not.

Trading for Grabner, giving like a million players PTO's, signing Mathias, trading for Spaling etc. Nylander essentially had to play like Gretzky in his prime to make the team.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Trading for Grabner, giving like a million players PTO's, signing Mathias, trading for Spaling etc. Nylander essentially had to play like Gretzky in his prime to make the team.

And now you've gone completely the other way in terms of reasonableness. That is not exactly the 1970's Habs' lineup that Nylander had to crack.

 

[Mad Dog Tannen]

An "NHL ready" player is someone's opinion, not a black and white type of thing. You could argue there are AHL, CHL, or even overseas players that could make the jump to the NHL right now.

If it's your opinion that Nylander isn't NHL ready that's fine. But there is sufficient evidence that the Leafs never intended him to make the team if he was ready or not.

Earning a roster spot is earning a roster spot. It varies depending on how hard a roster is to crack, detroits was extremely tough to crack for a long time.

That Nylander wasn't outperforming any forwards on the second or third line of Toronto is extremely disappointing, but I would agree with it. He simply isn't at an average NHL level defensively, and still has work to do both taking and giving checks that has little to do with his strength.

 

[The Thin White Duke]

What defensive issues are you guys talking about? I get the feeling that people see that he's a medium sized skilled offensive player so they assume he must have a bad defensive game because that's the stereotype. Not saying he was Datsyuk out there but he wasnt out of place with the vets. He played a pretty passive game but still regularly caused turnovers and came out of board battles with the puck often enough. His line almost always outshot the opposition too.

If anything he needs to work at controlling the offensive game at an NHL level speed, a lot of his chances were off aa quick counter attack instead of the sustained possession Babcock likes.

 

[Mad Dog Tannen]

What? I just explained why I thought they left him in the AHL. The Leafs management seems to want to eco Detroit's development strategy.

"Mike Babcock’s message to Maple Leafs prospects is clear: Work hard now, separate yourself from the pack, and, in a few years, you might make the NHL."
http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs...ects-to-learn-what-makes-superstars-tick.html

"While it is unlikely that the Leafs' high end prospects will see time at the NHL level during the 2015-16 season, a fair portion of the campaign will be devoted to development of center Nazem Kadri and defensemen Morgan Reilly and Jake Gardiner."
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/10/05/sports/hockey/ap-hkn-maple-leafs-preview.html?_r=0

Tip of the iceberg here as far as finding evidence for this claim.


Now again I ask, why are you of the mind that the Leafs management team would have any prospect showing signs of being NHL ready play in the NHL only?

Neither of those quotes support your claim that detroits system for developing prospects is a requirement. Them being NHL ready, then undergoing an additional year in the AHL.

The first quote is generalities every coach says to prospects, and the second is quoting a reporter.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Looool "a few years" let's hope Nylander isn't overly sensitive and offended to news like that. He is arguably NHL ready now let alone a few years. Even though Babcock prolly joking still.

 

[Pyromaniac]

Earning a roster spot is earning a roster spot. It varies depending on how hard a roster is to crack, detroits was extremely tough to crack for a long time.

That Nylander wasn't outperforming any forwards on the second or third line of Toronto is extremely disappointing, but I would agree with it. He simply isn't at an average NHL level defensively, and still has work to do both taking and giving checks that has little to do with his strength.

Yeah Detroit was such a power house that they decided to keep signing guys like Cleary and Bertuzzi instead of playing a clearly NHL ready Nyquist.

Detroit is absolutely an example of a team that doesn't hand out spots despite a young player being unquestionably better than his competition. The Islanders are another.

In any case there are many reasons to keep a prospect down in the minors other than simply not being good enough.

It is possible that they want him to develop him as a center but they don't have the spots to give him significant minutes. It is possible that they also do not want to waste Nylander's ELC year when they will not be relevant. I strongly suspect the Isles are using this same strategy to keep control of a player for a few more years and get the most out of him.

 

[gifted88]

Neither of those quotes support your claim that detroits system for developing prospects is a requirement. Them being NHL ready, then undergoing an additional year in the AHL.

The first quote is generalities every coach says to prospects, and the second is quoting a reporter.

I'm quoting sources that say they are taking their time with the kids. If you want more I can for sure find some.

Direct quotes from Lou:
"We're not even thinking about them being in the NHL," Lamoriello said." - http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/10/05/sports/hockey/ap-hkn-maple-leafs-preview.html?_r=0

“There’s a lot of decisions that will be made as the season goes on,” Lamoriello said, carefully choosing his words. “[Young players] could be here before they know it. Or it could be some time. A lot of it depends on the whole process that we’re going through.” - http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...-sparing-youth-from-the-pain/article26645853/

“They’ve gotten better and better during camp, in my opinion,” Lamoriello said. “They’ve deserved the opportunity that they’re getting. We just have to see where the final decision is.” - http://energeticcity.ca/article/can...o-minors-as-part-of-final-major-round-of-cuts

Direct quote from Shanahan:
"Shortcuts have gotten this organization into trouble in the past and this has to once and for all be a build that we are committed to and that we don't stray from." - http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/maple-leafs-make-good-on-pledge-to-stay-patient/

And Babcock:
"What matters to me is that we make the best decisions we possibly can," said Babcock. "We better know what we have before we get in a hurry to do something and then we find out later it was wrong. So being patient, I think, is important." - http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/maple-leafs-make-good-on-pledge-to-stay-patient/

Boom, quotes from Lou, Shanny, and Babcock. Now tell me this sounds like a management team that wants the young guys to win roster spots in camp.

You are going on a gut feeling that any player not making an NHL team out of pre-season isn't ready for the NHL...unless you want to provide a quote from any media source/NHL executive saying that?

 

[Mad Dog Tannen]

I'm quoting sources that say they are taking their time with the kids. If you want more I can for sure find some.
You are going on a gut feeling that any player not making an NHL team out of pre-season isn't ready for the NHL...unless you want to provide a quote from any media source/NHL executive saying that?

Here's Babcock and Nylander on if Nylander is ready for the NHL.

“We think he’s good,” Babcock said. “You see players, you see whether they’re ready, you see if they’re ready defensively, you see if they’re ready offensively.
“You just watch to see if they’re ready.”

Babcock has never ruled out the possibility of Nylander playing so well it’s impossible to send him back to the minors. He has said it’s up to any younger player to “take someone’s job” in the NHL.
“If I take that job, I’ll be happy,” Nylander said. “If I don’t, I’ll keep working hard with the Marlies.”

Nylander has dazzled with the puck, although Babcock said the son of former NHL forward Michael Nylander has a lot to work on. Asked if he felt NHL ready, He (Nylander) said "I have no idea"

Sounds like he could have earned a spot with play to me.

 

[Mad Dog Tannen]

I'm quoting sources that say they are taking their time with the kids. If you want more I can for sure find some.

Direct quotes from Lou:
"We're not even thinking about them being in the NHL," Lamoriello said." - http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/10/05/sports/hockey/ap-hkn-maple-leafs-preview.html?_r=0

“There’s a lot of decisions that will be made as the season goes on,” Lamoriello said, carefully choosing his words. “[Young players] could be here before they know it. Or it could be some time. A lot of it depends on the whole process that we’re going through.” - http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...-sparing-youth-from-the-pain/article26645853/

“They’ve gotten better and better during camp, in my opinion,” Lamoriello said. “They’ve deserved the opportunity that they’re getting. We just have to see where the final decision is.” - http://energeticcity.ca/article/can...o-minors-as-part-of-final-major-round-of-cuts

Direct quote from Shanahan:
"Shortcuts have gotten this organization into trouble in the past and this has to once and for all be a build that we are committed to and that we don't stray from." - http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/maple-leafs-make-good-on-pledge-to-stay-patient/

And Babcock:
"What matters to me is that we make the best decisions we possibly can," said Babcock. "We better know what we have before we get in a hurry to do something and then we find out later it was wrong. So being patient, I think, is important." - http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/maple-leafs-make-good-on-pledge-to-stay-patient/

Boom, quotes from Lou, Shanny, and Babcock. Now tell me this sounds like a management team that wants the young guys to win roster spots in camp.

You are going on a gut feeling that any player not making an NHL team out of pre-season isn't ready for the NHL...unless you want to provide a quote from any media source/NHL executive saying that?

They are talking about starting a player before he is NHL ready, shortcuts, etc.

No where does it say Nylander is ready for the NHL, so we need to send him down.

....boom?

 

[gifted88]

Here's Babcock and Nylander on if Nylander is ready for the NHL.



Sounds like he could have earned a spot with play to me.

You are quoting Nylander. Who has zero input on the teams development strategy

 

[Mad Dog Tannen]

You are quoting Nylander. Who has zero input on the teams development strategy

Seem like Babcock quotes to me....

Babcock has never ruled out the possibility of Nylander playing so well it’s impossible to send him back to the minors. He has said it’s up to any younger player to “take someone’s job” in the NHL.

Nylander has dazzled with the puck, although Babcock said the son of former NHL forward Michael Nylander has a lot to work on.

 

[gifted88]

They are talking about starting a player before he is NHL ready, shortcuts, etc.

No where does it say Nylander is ready for the NHL, so we need to send him down.

....boom?

I found a direct quote from Babcock saying they are going to take their time with prospects. So why ignore that? I have no clue what you are trying to prove?

I'm not a Leafs fan, I'm not even a big fan of Nylander. But you are being totally ignorant of evidence that backs up what the majority of posters in here are saying.

 

[Mad Dog Tannen]

I found a direct quote from Babcock saying they are going to take their time with prospects. So why ignore that? I have no clue what you are trying to prove?

I'm not a Leafs fan, I'm not even a big fan of Nylander. But you are being totally ignorant of evidence that backs up what the majority of posters in here are saying.

If the point is Toronto is committed to taking time to develop prospects, I agree.

There is no evidence to support Nylander is NHL ready, or that they would send him down to the minors if he earned a spot.

 

[gifted88]

If the point is committed to taking time to develop prospects, I agree.

There is no evidence to support Nylander is NHL ready, or that they would send him down to the minors if he earned a spot.

Nylander being NHL ready is an opinion. You certainly are not wrong for thinking he isn't. But the logic you are trying to use is extremely flawed.

I came in this thread and stated my opinion, which you crapped all over with nonsense stating any player not making their team out of camp isn't an NHL quality player yet. And you have yet to provide any kind of evidence to support your claim.

 

[Mad Dog Tannen]

Nylander being NHL ready is an opinion. You certainly are not wrong for thinking he isn't. But the logic you are trying to use is extremely flawed.

I came in this thread and stated my opinion, which you crapped all over with nonsense stating any player not making their team out of camp isn't an NHL quality player yet. And you have yet to provide any kind of evidence to support your claim.

All I've offered is Babcock saying it is totally possible for a player to earn a spot on the team, by beating out a vet. As well as Babcock saying Nylander is good, and still has a lot to work on. He also spoke about how he assesses a player by looking to see if they are ready.

Both those quotes dispel the myth that it was impossible for Nylander to make the team (he was being sent down regardless - which is false). And that he is currently NHL ready, which he isn't according to both Babcock and possibly himself. I would argue that if your asked directly if you're NHL ready and your response is "I'm not sure" then you probably aren't.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Seem like Babcock quotes to me....

Babcock sure doesn't sugar coat things.
All in all though a good message that he needs to work hard this year to improve on the defensive side and his play without the puck.

 

[bobbyt 91*]

That's Fair, but no player on the leafs knows babcocks system. Part of being NHL ready is the ability o learn and implement new systems and strategies when requested. I'd argue a players role in the system changes during the course of their CHL career more than it would during two years in the NHL playing the same system as the parent team.

If anything, it just reinforces the point that Nylander isn't NHL ready.

You are not looking at the whole picture. The Leafs also brought in 1 yr guys to showcase them and get extra picks, keeping Nylander up meant that 1 of those asssets won't return any value. So they made a strategic decision. Nylander was/is NHL ready, if L.D, Ehlers made it Nylander should have as well, he was just as good as they were,

 

[4thline]

And now you've gone completely the other way in terms of reasonableness. That is not exactly the 1970's Habs' lineup that Nylander had to crack.

The thing you and Sgt. Osiris are missing is that Leafs management wasn't setting the bar based on the current roster.

The question wasn't "is Nylander a better hockey player than Pierre Alexander Paranteau/Brad Boyes etc:

it was
"is Nylander ready to slot in on a competitive team as a legitimate top 6 centre"

The bar for the Leafs top prospects wasn't "cracking" this roster, it was (and will be) meeting the expectations that management sets out for them to fill roles on the team that management wants the Leafs to be.

 

[Cotton]

Here's Babcock and Nylander on if Nylander is ready for the NHL.



Sounds like he could have earned a spot with play to me.

You should finish the quote next time.

"TORONTO - William Nylander is a year older, 15 pounds heavier and undoubtedly more confident in his second Toronto Maple Leafs training camp.

Teammates say Nylander is bigger and stronger, and coach Mike Babcock has been impressed with the 19-year-old's play. Yet even with those developments, Nylander's chances of making the team are slim.

With the Leafs committed to a win-later approach, they want their top prospects developing in the minor leagues and at the junior level. In keeping with that theme, Nylander will likely start the season with the American Hockey League's Toronto Marlies.

"We think he's good," Babcock said. "You see players, you see whether they're ready, you see if they're ready defensively, you see if they're ready offensively.

"You just watch to see if they're ready. We want our guys over-ready.""

And the full quote when asked if he was NHL ready had context;

"These games you've been playing against some NHL guys, not a full NHL team," he said. "I have no idea."

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=780462

 

[WetcoastOrca]

The thing you and Sgt. Osiris are missing is that Leafs management wasn't setting the bar based on the current roster.

The question wasn't "is Nylander a better hockey player than Pierre Alexander Paranteau/Brad Boyes etc:

it was
"is Nylander ready to slot in on a competitive team as a legitimate top 6 centre"

The bar for the Leafs top prospects wasn't "cracking" this roster, it was (and will be) meeting the expectations that management sets out for them to fill roles on the team that management wants the Leafs to be.

I'm not missing out on that point at all.
He wasn't good enough to slot into a top 6 role at this time.
I'm not saying anything about his future or his value as a prospect.
I just think it's disingenuous to suggest that had he played well enough he still had no shot at a spot. You make room for prospects who make it impossible to send them down. Pretty much every team has high standards for their prospects and lots of competition. The Leafs are not unique.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

I can tell you that the reason Nylander didn't make the team is because Mike Babcock is Mike Babcock.

 

[Cotton]

I'm not missing out on that point at all.
He wasn't good enough to slot into a top 6 role at this time.
I'm not saying anything about his future or his value as a prospect.
I just think it's disingenuous to suggest that had he played well enough he still had no shot at a spot. You make room for prospects who make it impossible to send them down. Pretty much every team has high standards for their prospects and lots of competition. The Leafs are not unique.

Sure he was, that was pretty clear just from watching him. You should try it.

 

[Mad Dog Tannen]

You should finish the quote next time.

"TORONTO - William Nylander is a year older, 15 pounds heavier and undoubtedly more confident in his second Toronto Maple Leafs training camp.

Teammates say Nylander is bigger and stronger, and coach Mike Babcock has been impressed with the 19-year-old's play. Yet even with those developments, Nylander's chances of making the team are slim.

With the Leafs committed to a win-later approach, they want their top prospects developing in the minor leagues and at the junior level. In keeping with that theme, Nylander will likely start the season with the American Hockey League's Toronto Marlies.

"We think he's good," Babcock said. "You see players, you see whether they're ready, you see if they're ready defensively, you see if they're ready offensively.

"You just watch to see if they're ready. We want our guys over-ready.""

And the full quote when asked if he was NHL ready had context;

"These games you've been playing against some NHL guys, not a full NHL team," he said. "I have no idea."

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=780462

The most telling part of the article, which for some reason you left out.

Nylander has dazzled with the puck, although Babcock said the son of former NHL forward Michael Nylander has a lot to work on.

Nylander has a lot to work on according to Babcock, I wish he would have been working on it in the CHL, instead of getting strong in Sweden playing 22 year olds or whatever.