C Will Smith - Boston College, NCAA (2023, 4th, SJS)

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HanSolo

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By "best of the rest" I meant best after the big 4, particularly the #5 to #10 range. I've read a lot of banter on these boards about Smith vs. Benson as the #5 pick. Personally I'd take Reinbacher over either of them.

I've seen about 12 or so NTDP games (I really need to start journaling which games I watch) and the impressions you stated are things I noted just about every damn time Smith was on the ice. I think this is a prospect that is going to take a longer time developing than people are comfortable with a top 5 or top 10 pick taking as a result of his fundamental flaws.

Now this isn't to say he can't become a good NHLer, but it will definitely take the right development program and the right coach to bring out the best in him. The teams that are in range to select him don't strike me as the types of teams that are great with their prospects, though. (Montreal, Philly and Arizona. Yikes.)
I mean I'm with you but I want to be fair. The kid does have good IQ, vision, and when he's properly identified the situation he can make some superb passes. I just think: 1) his decision making with the puck needs work

(some people measure hockey IQ lazily and attribute it to "if they can pull off plays that most average players can't or don't, their IQ is through the roof" but I think it comprises decision making with the puck too. If you're experimenting with an out-of the-box type creative play and you end up passing to someone without realizing they're completely marked or you end up turning it right over to a defender, your hockey IQ can't be sky high. Like I don't think creativity and hockey IQ always go hand in hand. But at the same time, I don't think that holistic hockey IQ can't be improved by learning and adapting to the game and the level of competition you're at either. Guys like Zegras and Smith can adapt well to the situation on the ice but both have a tendency to experiment without enough fear of failure. As a Ducks fan, I'll admit we're still waiting for Zegras to finish figuring out what works and what doesn't and for him to focus on exploiting the kind of plays he knows will work. Hopefully it happens and he doesn't get stuck as a career scientist of the game of fancypuck.)

And 2) he either needs to find more speed, more strength, or more smarts about how to navigate the offensive zone to be able to adapt, like you said, to the NCAA and then eventually the NHL.

Which is a lot of words to say that he can be worthy of a high to early mid round pick. He just has a lot to work on in terms of adapting his game to a higher level of competition. What keeps sticking with me from my review of the footage is that on all of his most impressive clips, the defenders weren't rendered neutered by some sublime play by Smith as much as they were playing flat footed and unrefined defense, and thus unchallenging defense. The big plus with him dominating the U18s right now is that level of competition is higher so without having the opportunity to be awake to watch those games, maybe it's a sign that he can adapt and evolve to meet the challenges of more competitive play. I don't know. I just know I wouldn't take him with Anaheim's pick even if they drop two spots.
 

Rabid Ranger

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I mean I'm with you but I want to be fair. The kid does have good IQ, vision, and when he's properly identified the situation he can make some superb passes. I just think: 1) his decision making with the puck needs work

(some people measure hockey IQ lazily and attribute it to "if they can pull off plays that most average players can't or don't, their IQ is through the roof" but I think it comprises decision making with the puck too. If you're experimenting with an out-of the-box type creative play and you end up passing to someone without realizing they're completely marked or you end up turning it right over to a defender, your hockey IQ can't be sky high. Like I don't think creativity and hockey IQ always go hand in hand. But at the same time, I don't think that holistic hockey IQ can't be improved by learning and adapting to the game and the level of competition you're at either. Guys like Zegras and Smith can adapt well to the situation on the ice but both have a tendency to experiment without enough fear of failure. As a Ducks fan, I'll admit we're still waiting for Zegras to finish figuring out what works and what doesn't and for him to focus on exploiting the kind of plays he knows will work. Hopefully it happens and he doesn't get stuck as a career scientist of the game of fancypuck.)

And 2) he either needs to find more speed, more strength, or more smarts about how to navigate the offensive zone to be able to adapt, like you said, to the NCAA and then eventually the NHL.

Which is a lot of words to say that he can be worthy of a high to early mid round pick. He just has a lot to work on in terms of adapting his game to a higher level of competition. What keeps sticking with me from my review of the footage is that on all of his most impressive clips, the defenders weren't rendered neutered by some sublime play by Smith as much as they were playing flat footed and unrefined defense, and thus unchallenging defense. The big plus with him dominating the U18s right now is that level of competition is higher so without having the opportunity to be awake to watch those games, maybe it's a sign that he can adapt and evolve to meet the challenges of more competitive play. I don't know. I just know I wouldn't take him with Anaheim's pick even if they drop two spots.
What are you basing all of this on? Based on your comments in this thread you have seen very little of Smith aside from a few minutes of footage. You don't appear to be watching him play at the u18s. The one comment you make about his compete level is a criticism levied by another HF poster. How does your evaluation have more merit than say this one which is really the polar opposite of yours? Will Smith - 2023 NHL Draft Prospect Profile
 
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HanSolo

DJ Crazy Times
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What are you basing all of this on? Based on your comments in this thread you have seen very little of Smith aside from a few minutes of footage. You don't appear to be watching him play at the u18s. The one comment you make about his compete level is a criticism levied by another HF poster. How does your evaluation have more merit than say this one which is really the polar opposite of yours? Will Smith - 2023 NHL Draft Prospect Profile
I'll refer you to the numerous times I admitted to being far from a pro scout and that I only based my opinions on the footage I was able to find. Just my personal takeaway from what I've got. But yeah I don't think I need to accept scouts' impressions as gospel either as they're also wrong about high ranked prospects just about every single year. So I'm going with my own eyes but admit that I haven't watched as much as the pro scouts so I'm fully aware my impressions could mean nothing.

That said, I didn't think I had to spell it out more explicitly that a grain of salt was required to season and read my takes. I specifically highlighted that my takes are amateur which implies that they are not more meritorious than someone who gets paid to do it, so settle down. It ain't that serious.

And yeah I haven't been watching the U18s because those games happen while I'm sleeping.
 
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OgeeOgelthorpe

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I mean I'm with you but I want to be fair. The kid does have good IQ, vision, and when he's properly identified the situation he can make some superb passes. I just think: 1) his decision making with the puck needs work

(some people measure hockey IQ lazily and attribute it to "if they can pull off plays that most average players can't or don't, their IQ is through the roof" but I think it comprises decision making with the puck too. If you're experimenting with an out-of the-box type creative play and you end up passing to someone without realizing they're completely marked or you end up turning it right over to a defender, your hockey IQ can't be sky high. Like I don't think creativity and hockey IQ always go hand in hand. But at the same time, I don't think that holistic hockey IQ can't be improved by learning and adapting to the game and the level of competition you're at either. Guys like Zegras and Smith can adapt well to the situation on the ice but both have a tendency to experiment without enough fear of failure. As a Ducks fan, I'll admit we're still waiting for Zegras to finish figuring out what works and what doesn't and for him to focus on exploiting the kind of plays he knows will work. Hopefully it happens and he doesn't get stuck as a career scientist of the game of fancypuck.)

And 2) he either needs to find more speed, more strength, or more smarts about how to navigate the offensive zone to be able to adapt, like you said, to the NCAA and then eventually the NHL.

Which is a lot of words to say that he can be worthy of a high to early mid round pick. He just has a lot to work on in terms of adapting his game to a higher level of competition. What keeps sticking with me from my review of the footage is that on all of his most impressive clips, the defenders weren't rendered neutered by some sublime play by Smith as much as they were playing flat footed and unrefined defense, and thus unchallenging defense. The big plus with him dominating the U18s right now is that level of competition is higher so without having the opportunity to be awake to watch those games, maybe it's a sign that he can adapt and evolve to meet the challenges of more competitive play. I don't know. I just know I wouldn't take him with Anaheim's pick even if they drop two spots.

The U18s are fun for people that love looking at counting stats but I don't think they really tell an honest story.

Here are the scores of the US games.

USA 7 Latvia 1 (points on goals 3 and 5)
USA 12 Norway 1 (points on goals 2, 5, 6, 9
USA 8 Finland 4 (points on goals 2, 5, 6, 7, 8)
USA 10 Switzerland 0 (points on goals 3, 5, 7, 8)

This may be the weakest international group I've seen in U18 history.

Finland is the only one that historically has a good hockey program at producing NHLers on a season by season basis. (Switzerland is getting better but the other two are light years behind). However, this season Finland has what, 1 player rated as a (late) first round talent in Halttunen?

The TLDR is, that as much as Smith is scoring in this tournament I can't help but feel that it's misleading. How often are the points he's getting on goals 5, 6, 7, 8, 9? It reminds me a lot of when people were pumping Kent Johnson's tires for having so many 3 point nights at Michigan without looking and seeing that the points were collected late in blowouts.

EDIT: Also regarding hockey IQ, I also think that the misidentification of creativitiy and chance taking being mistaken for smarts is something that HFBoards in general needs a primer on. A player's toe drags per 60 doesn't impress me nearly as much as how often a player can be in the right place at the right time to make things happen. That's why I think his lower ranked linemate Ryan Leonard is going to be the better NHLer despite less perceived talent.
 
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stevo61

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He has me intriqued and it almost feels like Kent Johnson again. People cant decide what he'll be and where he should go. Some had Johnson going very early and some had him outside the top 10. 2 shorts years later I see a guy who has the talent to grow into a 1C.

Bedard is probably instant impact. Fantilli/Carlsson probably really take off in year 2. After that you can mostly count on 2 years+ before they are impact guys. They may make the team sooner but it dkesnt mean they are making an impact. I dont think waiting 2-3 years for Smith to be an impact player is a negative or out of line for a drafted player. Drafting on how soon they can make an impact vs where theyll be in 3-5 years is silly
 
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OgeeOgelthorpe

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He has me intriqued and it almost feels like Kent Johnson again. People cant decide what he'll be and where he should go. Some had Johnson going very early and some had him outside the top 10. 2 shorts years later I see a guy who has the talent to grow into a 1C.

Bedard is probably instant impact. Fantilli/Carlsson probably really take off in year 2. After that you can mostly count on 2 years+ before they are impact guys. They may make the team sooner but it dkesnt mean they are making an impact. I dont think waiting 2-3 years for Smith to be an impact player is a negative or out of line for a drafted player. Drafting on how soon they can make an impact vs where theyll be in 3-5 years is silly

It is, but also look at the teams he would potentially go to. Does Arizona bring him in during after his D+3 after letting him ripen or do they rush him to the NHL and we see him struggle in his D+1 or D+2? How about Montreal and Philly? Does he thrive on a Tortorella team when his defensive play is probably the weakest part of his game right now? If Chicago falls in the lottery how does he handle being on a roster of AHLers?

I think these are fair considerations. If he were going to the Anaheim, San Jose, Washington or Columbus I'd be less worried about his development.

Smith is very, very good and should be selected in the top 5.

He will most likely mirror the learning curve by Jack Hughes.

Hughes could play with the puck at speeds Smith can't.
 

stevo61

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It is, but also look at the teams he would potentially go to. Does Arizona bring him in during after his D+3 after letting him ripen or do they rush him to the NHL and we see him struggle in his D+1 or D+2? How about Montreal and Philly? Does he thrive on a Tortorella team when his defensive play is probably the weakest part of his game right now? If Chicago falls in the lottery how does he handle being on a roster of AHLers?

I think these are fair considerations. If he were going to the Anaheim, San Jose, Washington or Columbus I'd be less worried about his development.
We dont know if its serious or not but if Columbus drops to 4 there is talk they like Smith. Does that mean they like him enough to take him at 4? We may never know but the possibility exists.

A year or 2 in Boston could change so much to his game and physical attributes.

I dont know if any of those teams rush him. Sharks are probably in the rebuild for the long haul, Chicago also. Arizona I dont know where they are at. Montreal is probably fine to leave him in Boston for atleast a year, possibly 2
 

OgeeOgelthorpe

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A year or 2 in Boston could change so much to his game and physical attributes.

I dont know if any of those teams rush him. Sharks are probably in the rebuild for the long haul, Chicago also. Arizona I dont know where they are at. Montreal is probably fine to leave him in Boston for atleast a year, possibly 2

The bolded is the most important thing for him, in my opinion. He needs time to get stronger and to work on the pace he plays with.

Chicago brought Dach in right away and it definitely hurt him as a prospect. Arizona brought Hayton in his D+2 and he's just now looking like an NHL producer. Montreal brought in Slafkovsky this season and you could plainly see the kid was not ready.
 

majormajor

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He has me intriqued and it almost feels like Kent Johnson again. People cant decide what he'll be and where he should go. Some had Johnson going very early and some had him outside the top 10. 2 shorts years later I see a guy who has the talent to grow into a 1C.

Bedard is probably instant impact. Fantilli/Carlsson probably really take off in year 2. After that you can mostly count on 2 years+ before they are impact guys. They may make the team sooner but it dkesnt mean they are making an impact. I dont think waiting 2-3 years for Smith to be an impact player is a negative or out of line for a drafted player. Drafting on how soon they can make an impact vs where theyll be in 3-5 years is silly

I agree about the timelines but part of it is the overlap between development timelines and risk. The reason he is projected to take a while to develop is because he has so many things to fix. He needs to learn to attack faster, he needs a better motor, he needs to economize his stride, he needs to learn to pick his spots and dramatically lower his turnover rate, get stronger, play defense, etc... that is where risk accumulates. Some of those things won't progress.

By comparison Lukas Reichel looked to me a couple years ago like a guy who would be great one day, and for the most part all he had to do was get stronger and his skating would pop. Long timeline but not as much risk.
 
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Fyodorov

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I agree about the timelines but part of it is the overlap between development timelines and risk. The reason he is projected to take 3-5 years to develop is because he has so many things to fix. He needs to learn to attack faster, he needs a better motor, he needs to economize his stride, he needs to learn to pick his spots and dramatically lower his turnover rate, get stronger, play defense, etc... that is where risk accumulates. Some of those things won't progress.

By comparison Lukas Reichel looked to me a couple years ago like a guy who would be great one day, and for the most part all he had to do was get stronger and his skating would pop. Long timeline but not as much risk.

projected by who to take 3-5 years?
 
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Vinny Boombatz

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You think that's the most likely scenario? He's going to mirror the learning curve of a former first overall and proven superstar? Bit bold.
I think he will not get to the NHL in the same timeframe, but will take 4 years and be a PPG player...but it will be year 5 or 6 compared to Jack's 4 years as Smith will spend most likely 1 or 2 years in college.

So either year 5 or year 6 he's a PPG player. No, I don't think he'll be as good as Jack, as I don't expect him to hit north of 90pts, but I absolutely think he's a PPG'er.

I should have clarified that I think it would take him 4yrs in the pros when he makes it.
 

OgeeOgelthorpe

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Are you arguing the top 5 selection designation or the learning curve similar to Jack Hughes or both?

I’m saying that aside from the position they play and the team, they are very different. Hughes had elite IQ and skating to complement the otherworldly hands. He would easily go #2 in this year’s draft, even over Fantilli and Carlson. Smith isn’t the same caliber of player as Jack Hughes as a prospect. Full stop.
 

HanSolo

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I think he will not get to the NHL in the same timeframe, but will take 4 years and be a PPG player...but it will be year 5 or 6 compared to Jack's 4 years as Smith will spend most likely 1 or 2 years in college.

So either year 5 or year 6 he's a PPG player. No, I don't think he'll be as good as Jack, as I don't expect him to hit north of 90pts, but I absolutely think he's a PPG'er.

I should have clarified that I think it would take him 4yrs in the pros when he makes it.
I still think that's a bold expectation to state with confidence but we'll see. Personally I'd say that's his upside but he has work to do to get there.
 

majormajor

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projected by who to take 3-5 years?

Sorry I was just replying to someone saying 3-5, I didn't mean to imply that Smith would need any particular amount of time. Though 3-5 years before becoming an effective NHLer is normal even for a top ten pick.
 

WeThreeKings

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Scouts will like that first period for Smith.

Czechia in a tight zone defense.. he didn't do anything too flashy, he simplified, got pucks through to the net, got to the net himself, and picked up a rebound off in-zone movement all started by him and scored.
 

BB88

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All right @BB88 I watched about 15 minutes of footage I could find so far. I'm betting there's more and it doesn't comprise full game watches the way a pro scout would but here's my takeaway so far. I wouldn't say that Smith exactly fits the mold as a Cooley or Zegras clone but there's definitely the imprint of a player in the NTDP program that encourages creativity, experimentation and puck skill. If there's an NTDP comparable, it's Zegras.

Where Zegras tries all kinds of flashy moves with how he distributes, retains, and fires the puck, he stick handles (and this applies to his NTDP play from how I remember it) much quicker, tighter, and with a more natural flow. Smith's signature move is a borderline obsession with wide stickhandle dekes between left and right right or from a toe drag to his opposite side. But what I noticed is, Smith seems to uniformly start with pretty ordinary puck controlling as he moves through the offensive zone until he's within range of a defender. Then he slows down almost to a halt as he performs a very deliberate and very wide stick handle. What jumped out to me immediately is this may work just fine against the NTDP's opponents (who, from what I saw, often ended up just puck watching or going for reaching poke checks where they don't have the distance or time to execute the defensive play) but it's not going to fly nearly as often in the NHL where there's less time and space and higher defensive pressure. Smith really needs to rethink his puck handling approach if he wants to avoid persistent stick checks and stick lifts. And it wouldn't hurt if he could develop out of the need to slow down before a deke attempt. When you're looking at skill guys in the NHL they typically pull off their maneuvers at a maintained speed and with a lot more natural flow. When I watch Smith attempt his moves it looks like he really needs to think harder about what he's doing. For a guy obsessed with dangling, I view this as an area that will need improvement going forward

It's not all bad though. Don't get me wrong. The kid clearly has very high IQ and superb vision. He'll benefit from the versatility of being perfectly willing to make a smart set up pass just as often as he's willing shoot it for his goal count. He seems to have a good sense for when the situation calls for a pass over a shot and vis versa. His shot seems to be good. I don't know that I'd say he has the most dangerous release in terms of speed and strength but he looks to be able to pop off a wrist or snap shot from multiple release points which is a good sign for his future as an offensive threat.

Turning back to the negatives though, it does seem like he's prone to turnovers as he's often taking time to experiment different potentially flashy plays which I think tends to plague USNTDP graduates to different degrees (I go back to the Zegras comparison because while he is capable of making dazzling plays, for every one that succeeds there's four that don't at all). One of the videos I watched had an advanced stats breakdown and his pass attempt rate to successful
pass conversion is pretty low compared to his peers.

Another thing I noticed is in none of the footage I found did I ever see Smith engaging along the boards or using his body to play defense. Didn't see much by ways of defense at all. Granted, I'm missing a lot of footage because I'm just working with what is available to me but based on the reports I've read, it seems like his involvement on the defensive side of the game is pretty lacking. Oppose this to someone like Fantilli who I saw plenty of examples of him actively engaged in forechecking with smart stick lifts and being unafraid to battle along the boards, I think this is something Smith will need to work on.

In a nutshell if we're looking at whether the big 4 should actually be a big 5 inclusive of Smith, I think there's no question that Smith will be a good pick for whoever ends up with him. Do I think he's on the level to compete with Fantilli, Carlsson, and Michkov? No. I know full well the USNTDP has churned out a lot of NHL talent lately and Cooley is poised to join that group of young stars. I'm not saying he can't be in the same echelon as the Zegras', Caufield, Boldy, Cooley group or better but I think when you're comparing to the big next three after Bedard you have two guys that were superb in adult leagues and one guy that led NCAA in scoring as an 18 year old, which is Smith's next stop after the draft. While Smith is clearly dominant in NTDP competition, he strikes me as the kind of guy who leverages his strengths and flaws to feast on high schoolers who just aren't up to snuff defensively. While I don't agree that he lacks compete, I don't think he has the compete level of the "next big 3" and certainly nowhere near the compete level of Bedard. It's more of a question of pace given the quality of competition.

Smith is able to thrive because he doesn't have defenders challenging his space and/or employing sufficiently challenging stick work to limit Smith's options. But I don't think his pace is where it needs to be to really excel when the quality of competition ramps up. I'm not ruling out his ability to adapt his playstyle against tougher competition and he seems to be doing more than fine at the WJC U18. It's just that personally, as I'm watching him I think he has to adapt more about his game to maintain the kind of skill based, dangle-focused hockey he's naturally inclined to play and his execution level when it comes to passing definitely needs work. The objective numbers bear that out.

Again, I'm not a pro scout. And I'm not discounting that Smith could figure out what it takes to thrive in the NHL. But as I've watched a handful of example clips, I'm of the opinion that he needs to work on a fair number of elements in his game to get there. Just my non-professional, mostly uninterested view as a fan of a team that's probably not going to draft him. I don't think people who have him outside the top 10 are being fair to Smith but at the same time, if Anaheim picked him at 3rd overall instead of Fantilli or Carlsson, I'd be pretty upset.

Thank you for your answer :)

I’ve watched the last 3 games straight just to watch Smith& Leonard.

Smith has world class offensive tools but his overall game (impact) leaves lot to be desired& not enough to sell me over Michkov.

Edit, would not be that surprised though if a team overvalues his point totals from the u18’s
 
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95snipes

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Thought Smith was terrible today in the gold medal game. I've defended him in the past, but he certainly gave his detractors plenty of ammunition with his performance today.
 
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Chainshot

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Thought Smith was terrible today in the gold medal game. I've defended him in the past, but he certainly gave his detractors plenty of ammunition with his performance today.

And yet he still feathered the seam pass to Eiserman prior to the GTG. Sweden did a great job keeping that line mostly contained and to the outside but they did have some moments.
 

95snipes

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And yet he still feathered the seam pass to Eiserman prior to the GTG. Sweden did a great job keeping that line mostly contained and to the outside but they did have some moments.
Yup props to Sweden and one game doesn't change much for me; I still have Smith top 5. But he was bad.
 

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