C Will Smith - San Jose Sharks , NHL(2023, 4th, SJS)

[majormajor]

I was just being sarcastic, since their verbage implies he’s on the ice for all 60 mins.

Oh I was interpreting it as you need lungs of steel to score 3 pts per period, lol.

 

[BB88]

Kid must have lungs of steel

I don’t think you want to get the point.

It’s not about scoring 10 points per game but rather do I see a player today you can build around your franchise.

Smith has lot of work to get to that level

 

[HawksDub89]

There's nothing wrong with talking about Smith's inconsistency, or lack of motor, or lack of defense. It's a perfectly legit subject whether he's being compared to Carlsson at 3 or Moore at 8. It's part of evaluating players that there are positives and there are negatives. People who go at other posters for mentioning negatives need to chill tf out.

Thats not what we’re talking about here chief.

He said “great for a full 60” if he’s going to be compared to the other top 4 prospects. That’s an absurd standard.

You can poke holes in Fantilli/Carlsson/Michkovs game and none of them are consistently great for a full 60.

And then to follow it up with “he better dominate “ as if he didn’t just put up 20 points in 7 games. Lol

 

[BB88]

Thats not what we’re talking about here chief.

He said “great for a full 60” if he’s going to be compared to the other top 4 prospects. That’s an absurd standard.

You can poke holes in Fantilli/Carlsson/Michkovs game and none of them are consistently great for a full 60.

And then to follow it up with “he better dominate “ as if he didn’t just put up 20 points in 7 games. Lol

I don’t think you get what I meant.

Nowhere did I demand 10 points a game.
I wanted to see better consistency from him.

 

[HawksDub89]

I don’t think you want to get the point.

It’s not about scoring 10 points per game but rather do I see a player today you can build around your franchise.

Smith has lot of work to get to that level

If he scores 10 points a game I would say you could build around that. Lol

You’re not doing a great job making your point. But I understand what you don’t like about him. I just disagree with it.

He’s likely never going to be a two way center. But if he hits his ceiling, he could be a PPG guy in the NHL. Those are pretty valuable, no?

 

[BB88]

If he scores 10 points a game I would say you could build around that. Lol

You’re not doing a great job making your point. But I understand what you don’t like about him. I just disagree with it.

He’s likely never going to be a two way center. But if he hits his ceiling, he could be a PPG guy in the NHL. Those are pretty valuable, no?

Yes, but would you agree there’s lot of work to do for him to achieve that?

He’s getting compared to franchise prospects that are 1st overall talents on their own.

At 3 or 4 in this draft you are targeting a player you can build around your team. This is where I definitely prefer Carlsson and Carlssons game to Smiths’.

It doesn’t mean Smit is bad, he’s a fabulous prospect with an elite offensive skill set. Just don’t see his current game working as the guy to build around in the NHL. He can get there, needs a lot of work though.

So at 5-6-7 jump in joy, at 3-4? Disappointed.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Yes, but would you agree there’s lot of work to do for him to achieve that?

He’s getting compared to franchise prospects that are 1st overall talents on their own.

At 3 or 4 in this draft you are targeting a player you can build around your team. This is where I definitely prefer Carlsson and Carlssons game to Smiths’.

It doesn’t mean Smit is bad, he’s a fabulous prospect with an elite offensive skill set. Just don’t see his current game working as the guy to build around in the NHL. He can get there, needs a lot of work though.

So at 5-6-7 jump in joy, at 3-4? Disappointed.

I think you need to temper your expectations for everyone in this draft other than Bedard.

 

[HawksDub89]

Yes, but would you agree there’s lot of work to do for him to achieve that?

He’s getting compared to franchise prospects that are 1st overall talents on their own.

At 3 or 4 in this draft you are targeting a player you can build around your team. This is where I definitely prefer Carlsson and Carlssons game to Smiths’.

It doesn’t mean Smit is bad, he’s a fabulous prospect with an elite offensive skill set. Just don’t see his current game working as the guy to build around in the NHL. He can get there, needs a lot of work though.

So at 5-6-7 jump in joy, at 3-4? Disappointed.

I think you’re overstating Fantilli and carlsson. You can poke holes in any of these kids games. They all had significant work to do in order to hit their ceiling.

Outside of Bedard, I don’t think any of these guys are instant impact guys. Carlsson/Fantilli/Michkov/Smith all
need developing.

I think you need to temper your expectations for everyone in this draft other than Bedard.

^^^^

 

[WarriorofTime]

BB88 has either the most impossible of expectations of prospects, or is just a big Leo Carlsson fan and wants to tear down anybody that could be near him to prop him up. Can't tell. Playing great for every shift in a whole game is not realistic unless these players are randomly showing up to House League. That is basically asking players that are in the discussion for 5th overall to be a Sidney Crosby level prospect. That's just not how prospects work when they're not in the 1st overall discussion, and heck some years (like last year), even 1st overall candidates aren't at that level.

I'd be a bit more concerned with Smith if it were still 2015-16 and only like 20 players league-wide are putting up 65 points. Then offense is just hard to come by and everyone really needs to be good 2-way to have a place as an impact player because one mistake in your own zone could be the difference between winning and losing. However, with offense trending up, I don't really see much reason to think Smith won't be joining the party as a guy that can put up oodles of points in the NHL.

He won't be winning Selke trophies, but I think a lot of the concerns about his play away from the puck and on the defensive end are being overblown. He can and likely will improve. It's not like he's being discussed as a player that is expected to play in the NHL next season.

 

[BB88]

I think you need to temper your expectations for everyone in this draft other than Bedard.

You don’t think Fantilli or Carlsson are franchise prospects?

The expectation doesn’t have to be top3/5 player in the World to be considered a franchise player

I think you’re overstating Fantilli and carlsson. You can poke holes in any of these kids games. They all had significant work to do in order to hit their ceiling.

Outside of Bedard, I don’t think any of these guys are instant impact guys. Carlsson/Fantilli/Michkov/Smith all
need developing.


^^^^

Fantilli and Carlsson are prototypical franchise C prospects.
Fantilli just had one of the best ncaa season ever and is getting reps with mens national team, Carlsson had one of the best SHL seasons and is getting reps with the mens national team.
Other is listed at 6’2 and the other 6’3.

Smith will have to gain lot of strenght and improve his overall game to really get to true 1C level in the league.

Again he can do it but he has a lot more work to do than the others

 

[Juxtaposer]

I have seen games of Bedard where he is outplayed by Benson for a period and a half, and then suddenly pots five points in ten minutes. Benson is by far the more complete player. Bedard’s off-puck game is mediocre at best, and often he isn’t consistent through out a whole 60 minutes. It doesn’t matter that he is the best scorer in the draft class, he’s not a complete player and he’s not consistent, so I’ll take Benson over him.

See how silly that sounds?

 

[majormajor]

Outside of Bedard, I don’t think any of these guys are instant impact guys. Carlsson/Fantilli/Michkov/Smith all
need developing.

I think Carlsson and Fantilli are going to be total package 1Cs in a few years. It won't take long, they don't have glaring holes in their game. Like they would be decent 5v5 players likely next year.

Michkov and Smith are much further away. Sky high upside but there is a lot missing and they'd be bad 5v5 players for a few years. Being smaller / weaker AND slower is a tough combination.

I'd be a bit more concerned with Smith if it were still 2015-16 and only like 20 players league-wide are putting up 65 points. Then offense is just hard to come by and everyone really needs to be good 2-way to have a place as an impact player because one mistake in your own zone could be the difference between winning and losing. However, with offense trending up, I don't really see much reason to think Smith won't be joining the party as a guy that can put up oodles of points in the NHL.

It runs both ways. There are so many point per game players right now that it seems to matter all the more when some of them are two way studs that win matchups and some are offense only. Like Mark Scheifele is a lethal talent but he's not really worth a whole lot, he usually gets outscored and doesn't seem to care. You'd be better off investing in more complete players and look for offense elsewhere, since it's not as hard to get these days.

 

[WarriorofTime]

It runs both ways. There are so many point per game players right now that it seems to matter all the more when some of them are two way studs that win matchups and some are offense only. Like Mark Scheifele is a lethal talent but he's not really worth a whole lot, he usually gets outscored and doesn't seem to care. You'd be better off investing in more complete players and look for offense elsewhere, since it's not as hard to get these days.

If you could guarantee a player has Mark Scheifele's career, no better or worse, where would you think he gets drafted?

 

[majormajor]

If you could guarantee a player has Mark Scheifele's career, no better or worse, where would you think he gets drafted?

Higher than he should be. #7 in an average draft would be OK.

 

[BB88]

I have seen games of Bedard where he is outplayed by Benson for a period and a half, and then suddenly pots five points in ten minutes. Benson is by far the more complete player. Bedard’s off-puck game is mediocre at best, and often he isn’t consistent through out a whole 60 minutes. It doesn’t matter that he is the best scorer in the draft class, he’s not a complete player and he’s not consistent, so I’ll take Benson over him.

See how silly that sounds?

So Smith is at Bedards level offensively?

 

[HanSolo]

So Smith is at Bedards level offensively?

You're intentionally missing the point bud.

 

[Juxtaposer]

So Smith is at Bedards level offensively?

Yeah, that’s what I said. Everything is a straw man for you.

 

[BB88]

Yeah, that’s what I said. Everything is a straw man for you.

Well it’s a damm useless example if you don’t think so.

There are exceptions to rule, like being a generational prospect


& it’s not a one game thing with Smith.
I was more impressed with Leonard and saw him as the most versatile, hard working player on that line. Not Smith.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Well it’s a damm useless example if you don’t think so.

There are exceptions to rule, like being a generational prospect


& it’s not a one game thing with Smith.
I was more impressed with Leonard and saw him as the most versatile, hard working player on that line. Not Smith.

And I saw almost every single Ice/Pats game this year often was more impressed with Benson… up until Bedard started filling the net.

In case it needs to be spelled out for you, Leonard is Benson and Smith is Bedard. Benson is more versatile and hard-working than Bedard by far. When Bedard is not actively scoring points, Benson often looks better because Benson is the superior two-way player and has a better motor. But it would be silly to suggest that he’s the better prospect than Bedard.

Is the point of hockey not to score goals? You’re vastly overestimating the defensive impact that wingers can have on the game. I think you’re imagining something like “Smith may contribute to more goals for than Leonard, but Leonard will save more goals against than that with his defensive play, thereby making him more valuable”, but realistically a winger’s responsibility in the defensive zone is primarily to mark the point, win board battles, and provide breakout options. Their ability to influence individual scoring plays in the defensive zone isn’t great.

It’s also wild to me that people think that Smith should be a winger and Leonard a center. If that were true, don’t you think sometime in the last two years that Smith has played exclusively center and Leonard has played exclusively winger the professional coaches paid to develop them would have at least attempted to make the swap?

I get it, you hate Smith, you don’t want your favorite team to draft him, whatever. But your weird little crusade against him is getting quite old.

 

[BB88]

And I saw almost every single Ice/Pats game this year often was more impressed with Benson… up until Bedard started filling the net.

In case it needs to be spelled out for you, Leonard is Benson and Smith is Bedard. Benson is more versatile and hard-working than Bedard by far. When Bedard is not actively scoring points, Benson often looks better because Benson is the superior two-way player and has a better motor. But it would be silly to suggest that he’s the better prospect than Bedard.

Is the point of hockey not to score goals? You’re vastly overestimating the defensive impact that wingers can have on the game. I think you’re imagining something like “Smith may contribute to more goals for than Leonard, but Leonard will save more goals against than that with his defensive play, thereby making him more valuable”, but realistically a winger’s responsibility in the defensive zone is primarily to mark the point, win board battles, and provide breakout options. Their ability to influence individual scoring plays in the defensive zone isn’t great.

It’s also wild to me that people think that Smith should be a winger and Leonard a center. If that were true, don’t you think sometime in the last two years that Smith has played exclusively center and Leonard has played exclusively winger the professional coaches paid to develop them would have at least attempted to make the swap?

I get it, you hate Smith, you don’t want your favorite team to draft him, whatever. But your weird little crusade against him is getting quite old.

How do I hate him if I say at 5-7 jump with joy if you land him?

What I am saying is that the risk factor between Bedard and Smith are vastly different.
As well as the reward factor.

You are also comparing 2 prospects whom aren’t even close to being ranked in the same tier as prospects.

I’m not saying take someone from the 15-20 range over Smith, which would be similar to your comp. I’m saying I’d much rather have Carlsson (top3 ranked) over Smith.

Your comp is just totally missing the mark

 

[majormajor]

And I saw almost every single Ice/Pats game this year often was more impressed with Benson… up until Bedard started filling the net.

In case it needs to be spelled out for you, Leonard is Benson and Smith is Bedard. Benson is more versatile and hard-working than Bedard by far. When Bedard is not actively scoring points, Benson often looks better because Benson is the superior two-way player and has a better motor. But it would be silly to suggest that he’s the better prospect than Bedard.

Is the point of hockey not to score goals? You’re vastly overestimating the defensive impact that wingers can have on the game. I think you’re imagining something like “Smith may contribute to more goals for than Leonard, but Leonard will save more goals against than that with his defensive play, thereby making him more valuable”, but realistically a winger’s responsibility in the defensive zone is primarily to mark the point, win board battles, and provide breakout options. Their ability to influence individual scoring plays in the defensive zone isn’t great.

It’s also wild to me that people think that Smith should be a winger and Leonard a center. If that were true, don’t you think sometime in the last two years that Smith has played exclusively center and Leonard has played exclusively winger the professional coaches paid to develop them would have at least attempted to make the swap?

I get it, you hate Smith, you don’t want your favorite team to draft him, whatever. But your weird little crusade against him is getting quite old.

I like your analogy and it's generally true that the margins for defensive play among forwards is lower than the margins between offensive contributions.

But for the record, defensively Leonard is more often battling in the low position while Smith waits at the point. Yes the NTDP has Smith taking the draw and not Leonard but they've always done things differently. The program really values creativity and putting their most creative players in the best position to develop that strength, and they don't try and stuff players into positional boxes.

 

[WarriorofTime]

How do I hate him if I say at 5-7 jump with joy if you land him?

What I am saying is that the risk factor between Bedard and Smith are vastly different.
As well as the reward factor.

You are also comparing 2 prospects whom aren’t even close to being ranked in the same tier as prospects.

I’m not saying take someone from the 15-20 range over Smith, which would be similar to your comp. I’m saying I’d much rather have Carlsson (top3 ranked) over Smith.

Your comp is just totally missing the mark

The point was just that your "I don’t think he put up a single game where he was great for full 60mins" comment was silly given his player profile type. He isn't overly physical so he isn't going to be rubbing guys off pucks every shift or whatever.

Again though, I think the concerns that he is "bad defensively" are really out of nowhere. He won't win Selke Trophies but I think the idea that he doesn't have a pretty sound defensive game (which he can continue working on at BC) are not accurate. Ironically, you're a bit off the mark and should probably apply your Michkov criticism to Smith and your Smith criticism to Michkov. Smith really isn't all that dynamic a skater and that will likely keep him out of the superstar tier, whereas Michkov can get caught napping and take a half period off at times.

 

[BB88]

The point was just that your "I don’t think he put up a single game where he was great for full 60mins" comment was silly given his player profile type. He isn't overly physical so he isn't going to be rubbing guys off pucks every shift or whatever.

Again though, I think the concerns that he is "bad defensively" are really out of nowhere. He won't win Selke Trophies but I think the idea that he doesn't have a pretty sound defensive game (which he can continue working on at BC) are not accurate. Ironically, you're a bit off the mark and should probably apply your Michkov criticism to Smith and your Smith criticism to Michkov. Smith really isn't all that dynamic a skater and that will likely keep him out of the superstar tier, whereas Michkov can get caught napping and take a half period off at times.

So why is it so outrageous to prefer a 6’2/6’3 franchise C prospect with better overall game?

Smith vs Michkov comes down to pure offense.
Neither will be dominant 200ft players but I see Michkov having the chance to reach a higher offensive ceiling.

I’m not passing Smith for garbage here

 

[WarriorofTime]

So why is it so outrageous to prefer a 6’2/6’3 franchise C prospect with better overall game?

Smith vs Michkov comes down to pure offense.
Neither will be dominant 200ft players but I see Michkov having the chance to reach a higher offensive ceiling.

it's not outrageous lol, your original comment was just silly

 

[BB88]

it's not outrageous lol, your original comment was just silly

Why?

You know not everyone speaks english as their native language?

My original point was I value Bergeron/Kopitar/Toews type C’s over smaller pure offensive C’s even if the expectation is they score few more points. You should know what that means