C/W Jesperi Kotkaniemi - Ässät, Liiga (2018, 3rd, MTL) Part II

[Poppy Whoa Sonnet]

"Kotkaniemi is a big time reach at 3"

"Kotkaniemi's skating is bad"

"Kotkaniemi is a long term project. He will only be ready in 2 or 3 years"

All the kid did since being drafted was proving people wrong (me included). So yeah I got my lesson, I'm not gonna doubt him again, but that's just me.

I like the guy but he's played 0 minutes of NHL regular season hockey. Remember these feelings when he hits a wall.

 

[Richard Bolton]

I like the guy but he's played 0 minutes of NHL regular season hockey. Remember these feelings when he hits a wall.

That's fair, except those comments came before he played anything meaningful as well. Rookie tournament for example.

Now he has at least shown he can sniff at some regular season games by being our best player during preseason. That's with NHL players in a team that had a bad season, so with players that might want to prove something.

 

[780il]

I didnt like the pick too much at the draft but the more I watch this guy the more impressed I am. Such a high iq player that always makes the right play, every time. MTL got a good one here!

 

[NotProkofievian]

It took one period of the first development camp scrimmage for the statler and waldorfs to show up to criticize the pick. Now that they've been rendered silent, I wonder how long Jesperi can struggle for at the NHL level before they reappear.

 

[Ippenator]

It took one period of the first development camp scrimmage for the statler and waldorfs to show up to criticize the pick. Now that they've been rendered silent, I wonder how long Jesperi can struggle for at the NHL level before they reappear.

I would guess one 0+0=0 game will be enough for that...

 

[NotProkofievian]

I would guess one 0+0=0 game will be enough for that...

''I'm not saying he's a bust! But still, it is very concerning. Look at [insert prospect], he already has 1 assist!" -someone, surely, after like...2 periods of play

 

[sharks9]

''I'm not saying he's a bust! But still, it is very concerning. Look at [insert prospect], he already has 1 assist!" -someone, surely, after like...2 periods of play

On the bright side, if he doesn't produce a ton then at least they'll likely send him back. But if he produces at the start, and goes on a slump any time after his first 9 games the "Did Montreal ruin his development?????" questions will start

 

[Hostile Offer]

That's not entirely true. Whenevr a player sticks with Montreal and doesn't go to their AHL affiliate they usually have a lot of success. It's the players that go down that can't do anything and don't developp properly.

In recent years:
Victor Mete - no time spent in AHL, trending very well already a top-4 D
Noah Juulsen - only half a season in AHL, sticking in Montreal, looks to be a potential top-4 D
Brendan Gallagher - only half a season in AHL, 1st line NHLer
Artturi Lehkonen - no time spent in AHL, top-6 NHLer
Alex Galchenyuk - spent no time in AHL, legit top-6 NHL talent

FAIL:
Jacob De La Rose - spent parts of 3 seasons in AHL, could never developp an offensive game
Charles Hudon - 3 seasons in AHL, still cannot cement a spot on Habs' top 3 lines
Nikita Scherbak - 3 seasons in AHL, still cannot cement a spot in Montreal
Brett Lernout - 3 seasons in AHL, unclaimed on waivers last week
Daniel Carr - 4 seasons in AHL, management let him go UFA
Michael McCarron - 3 seasons in AHL, still can't stick in NHL, unclaimed on waivers
Zach Fucale - 3 seasons in AHL, has never developped

Kotkaniemi seems like he's going to belong to the first group. Anytime they decide to ''rush'' prospects it turns out great. They have good judgement for that stuff.

Also there is 2 first rounders and 2 high second rounders in the ''fail'' category, whereas 3 out of 5 in the ''good'' category were not even 1st rounders.

I think this tells more about the staff in Laval/St. John's than the Habs succeeding with "rushing prospects".

 

[Captain Mountain]

I think this tells more about the staff in Laval/St. John's than the Habs succeeding with "rushing prospects".

Its was honestly impressive how long the AHL coaching staff were kept in place considering how objectively terrible they were.

 

[JoelWarlord]

Its was honestly impressive how long the AHL coaching staff were kept in place considering how objectively terrible they were.

Say what you want about McCarron, Tinordi, and Leblanc and whether or not they were good picks, but they were all guys that showed at least some promise at the NHL level but went off the rails when Lefebvre coached them too goon it up in the AHL. It's crazy to me they allowed him to stick around so long with what happened to guys like Leblanc and Tinordi.

Not that those guys were budding stars and I think they were bad picks (Tinordi especially), but Leblanc was an NHL level 4th line forward at the very least at age 20 and just fell off the map when Lefebvre started working with him. Same for Tinordi, looked like at the very least a decent 3rd pair and PK option, a diet Hal-Gill type with marginally better vision for first passes, but they wanted to turn him into a goon and ruined him. McCarron is in his last season most likely, initially he looked like a decent bottom six guy with non-zero offensive ability but they squashed that and wanted to turn him into a goon and a 4th line defensive forward.

 

[HankyZetts]

So who's the Habs skating coach then? And why didn't he do a better job improving the skating of Galchenyuk, McCarron, Hudon, etc...

My point is just because it's the NHL, doesn't mean they have the best or know what's best or the Habs wouldn't be in this mess to begin with.

I do think that if we had different management and coaching over the past several years, ones that view development differently, then yes I think Galchenyuk and McCarron would have been better off along with others.

If it were me, the day after I drafted Kotka i would have hired him a skating coach and had him work all summer with him in Finland, while also having someone there to work with him to train physically, what to eat, etc... He's our best hope for the future, why risk rushing that when you can just take a year to see how much he can improve his skating.

Who cares who the Habs skating coach is, did you not read what I said? If a player needs EXTRA work to develop his skating, the Montreal Canadiens have and will provide all the resources possible to help said player. Moreso than Pori, Finland can provide.

Maybe Galchenyuk, Hudon and Mccarron just sucked at skating compared to the worlds best hockey players? Why don't you put any blame on the players themselves?

So now we are saying "send him back to Finland because Bergevin and co. specifically won't help him develop his strength and skating. If we had someone else at the helm, I'd be all for Kotka staying in MTL; Because as I said Chucky, Mccarron and Hudon would all be much better skaters if not for Bergy and his views on development"? Is that what I'm getting from you Montreal?

I get that you hate the Habs management but that does not make your arguments any more reasonable.

 

[HankyZetts]

Say what you want about McCarron, Tinordi, and Leblanc and whether or not they were good picks, but they were all guys that showed at least some promise at the NHL level but went off the rails when Lefebvre coached them too goon it up in the AHL. It's crazy to me they allowed him to stick around so long with what happened to guys like Leblanc and Tinordi.

Not that those guys were budding stars and I think they were bad picks (Tinordi especially), but Leblanc was an NHL level 4th line forward at the very least at age 20 and just fell off the map when Lefebvre started working with him. Same for Tinordi, looked like at the very least a decent 3rd pair and PK option, a diet Hal-Gill type with marginally better vision for first passes, but they wanted to turn him into a goon and ruined him. McCarron is in his last season most likely, initially he looked like a decent bottom six guy with non-zero offensive ability but they squashed that and wanted to turn him into a goon and a 4th line defensive forward.

It's Mccarron himself who's mindset wasn't right. He tried to model his game after Lucic when he is simply not built for that. He needed to develop his skating, skills and especially his shot which is very decent by NHL standards, not worry about trying to take runs at people

 

[KevSkillz4]

He can be the best forward at NHL draft 2018. 1C in the making IMO.

 

[montreal]

Who cares who the Habs skating coach is, did you not read what I said? If a player needs EXTRA work to develop his skating, the Montreal Canadiens have and will provide all the resources possible to help said player. Moreso than Pori, Finland can provide.

Maybe Galchenyuk, Hudon and Mccarron just sucked at skating compared to the worlds best hockey players? Why don't you put any blame on the players themselves?

So now we are saying "send him back to Finland because Bergevin and co. specifically won't help him develop his strength and skating. If we had someone else at the helm, I'd be all for Kotka staying in MTL; Because as I said Chucky, Mccarron and Hudon would all be much better skaters if not for Bergy and his views on development"? Is that what I'm getting from you Montreal?

I get that you hate the Habs management but that does not make your arguments any more reasonable.

If the Habs can provide all the resources, why are they having so much trouble with their development over the last several years. Why are guys with skating issues not improving and having to hire their own coach? I just don't agree that because it's the Habs, they have the best of everything since the proof hasn't been there lately. I don't understand how the mere fact that this summer McCarron had to hire his own skating coach, how does that not even factor to you that maybe they don't have the best skating coach and aren't doing what needs to be done for their prospects?

I've watched Galchenyuk, Hudon and McCarron develop so I know they didn't suck but weren't developed very well aside from Hudon who I actually think they did a better job with. But there's no excuse for them to not be handled better, and this management team does NOT have a good track record with development over the years. So it's entirely fair to be concerned about the biggest and brightest hope the Habs currently have for their future.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Who cares who the Habs skating coach is, did you not read what I said? If a player needs EXTRA work to develop his skating, the Montreal Canadiens have and will provide all the resources possible to help said player. Moreso than Pori, Finland can provide.

This seems like a strong claim that hasn't had any evidence provided for it. Jesperi has already improved leaps and bounds over the summer working with whichever jabroni in Pori. Why do you assume Montreal can do better?

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

This seems like a strong claim that hasn't had any evidence provided for it. Jesperi has already improved leaps and bounds over the summer working with whichever jabroni in Pori. Why do you assume Montreal can do better?

Geographically and financially it would make sense that the Habs could hire someone better.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Geographically and financially it would make sense that the Habs could hire someone better.

The argument is essentially



It might make sense that there is someone in Montreal who might be able to do better. On the other hand, we know that whatever he was doing in Pori worked. Something about fixing things that ain't broke.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

The argument is essentially



It might make sense that there is someone in Montreal who might be able to do better. On the other hand, we know that whatever he was doing in Pori worked. Something about fixing things that ain't broke.

How about the fact his best development has been over the last couple of months since he joined the habs? Why mess with that?

 

[NotProkofievian]

How about the fact his best development has been over the last couple of months since he joined the habs? Why mess with that?

Where did he spend most of his time since joining the habs organization?

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Where did he spend most of his time since joining the habs organization?

Do you not recognize the growth occurred between rookie camp and now?

 

[NotProkofievian]

Do you not recognize the growth occurred between rookie camp and now?

You're now playing a game where you'll abandon the original premise - that his skating development will absolutely be better in Montreal than in Pori - for another, and another, and another. At this point I've shown that assertion to be baseless, at least as far as you're concerned.

To address your question: his skating (what we're talking about) already looked vastly improved in the friendlies against the Czech republic. He was also working with a skating coach in Pori. It's pretty reasonable and rational to connect those two things.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

You're now playing a game where you'll abandon the original premise - that his skating development will absolutely be better in Montreal than in Pori - for another, and another, and another. At this point I've shown that assertion to be baseless, at least as far as you're concerned.

To address your question: his skating (what we're talking about) already looked vastly improved in the friendlies against the Czech republic. He was also working with a skating coach in Pori. It's pretty reasonable and rational to connect those two things.

Neither of us have much evidence other than our observations. But the simple reality is that the skating coaches in Finland and the skating coaches in Montreal are probably doing the exact same training, so I don't really think it makes a difference. In fact, since you are the one who wants him to return to Finland for skating, the onus is on you to provide evidence that he'll get tangibly better skating work there than here, but there is no evidence that you could provide so I won't even bother asking for it.

The only benefits to returning to Finland are psychological. If J2K starts to feel the pressure in Montreal I do think it would be best to let him go home to Finland away from the spotlight around his family. But in terms of physical development, I don't see why Finland would be preferable. In terms of pure hockey development, he's going to learn more in Montreal on this NA ice with our coaches.

I think there are some people who are stuck on the idea that returning J2K to Finland would somehow lead to an Elias Pettersson development curve, when in fact the 2 are incredibly different prospects in incredibly different situations. Those folks need to reevaluate their positions with the evidence before us, and realize that Montreal is best for J2K for as long as he can handle it. We're going to be rolling 4 lines so he will get his ice time, he will be playing center, and he will have skilled linemates. If any of those 3 things change, then I think Laval is the best option, but otherwise he should stay in Montreal- unless the pressure starts to get to him, then yes, send him back home to Finland to regroup mentally.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Neither of us have much evidence other than our observations. But the simple reality is that the skating coaches in Finland and the skating coaches in Montreal are probably doing the exact same training, so I don't really think it makes a difference. In fact, since you are the one who wants him to return to Finland for skating, the onus is on you to provide evidence that he'll get tangibly better skating work there than here, but there is no evidence that you could provide so I won't even bother asking for it.

Lol. No. The original claim was that he will certainly have better skating development in Montreal. My original post was that this was just asserted without evidence. You said that ''it would make sense.'' And now I'm the one with the burden of proof?

I do like that you somehow both worked your way towards agreeing with me (the idea that what skating coaches in Montreal is clearly superior to anything he can get in Finland is spurious) before demanding I give you evidence.

I mean, even for hfboards, even for you, that's a bad swing and a miss.

The only benefits to returning to Finland are psychological. If J2K starts to feel the pressure in Montreal I do think it would be best to let him go home to Finland away from the spotlight around his family. But in terms of physical development, I don't see why Finland would be preferable. In terms of pure hockey development, he's going to learn more in Montreal on this NA ice with our coaches.

I think there are some people who are stuck on the idea that returning J2K to Finland would somehow lead to an Elias Pettersson development curve, when in fact the 2 are incredibly different prospects in incredibly different situations. Those folks need to reevaluate their positions with the evidence before us, and realize that Montreal is best for J2K for as long as he can handle it. We're going to be rolling 4 lines so he will get his ice time, he will be playing center, and he will have skilled linemates. If any of those 3 things change, then I think Laval is the best option, but otherwise he should stay in Montreal- unless the pressure starts to get to him, then yes, send him back home to Finland to regroup mentally.

Boy, sure sounds like you lost the skating debate, and so decided to abandon it to pursue a completely different argument.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Lol. No. The original claim was that he will certainly have better skating development in Montreal. My original post was that this was just asserted without evidence. You said that ''it would make sense.'' And now I'm the one with the burden of proof?

I do like that you somehow both worked your way towards agreeing with me (the idea that what skating coaches in Montreal is clearly superior to anything he can get in Finland is spurious) before demanding I give you evidence.

I mean, even for hfboards, even for you, that's a bad swing and a miss.



Boy, sure sounds like you lost the skating debate, and so decided to abandon it to pursue a completely different argument.

You sure are a fella who prefers to think he's right on the internet as opposed to having an enlightening discussion...

 

[HankyZetts]

This seems like a strong claim that hasn't had any evidence provided for it. Jesperi has already improved leaps and bounds over the summer working with whichever jabroni in Pori. Why do you assume Montreal can do better?

Because I know for a fact that they work with top hockey schools here in Montreal.

If the Habs couldn't do better than some "jabroni in Finland", then they wouldn't and shouldn't be considered a top flight professional sports club. I am not implying that Finland lacks quality trainers just that it doesn't make any sense that they'd compare favorably to the hockey schools/trainers here in Montreal that attract pros from across the league during the summer.

How did this thread went from; oh god how good Kotka is to;

If that is how it appears, then I apologize. I have absolute respect for Montreal the poster and NotProk as well so there is no ill-will here whatsoever.