C/W Jesperi Kotkaniemi - Ässät, Liiga (2018, 3rd, MTL) Part II

[Daximus]

100% agree.

Just don't want to see a good kids start ruined by trying to force a round peg into a square hole when there really isn't a need to.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

On most playoff teams he'd be in the 3rd or 4th line range for ice time likely.

He showed he was better than Eller as a rookie and Eller was the 3rd C on the cup champs.

 

[Scuba-Steve]

Just don't want to see a good kids start ruined by trying to force a round peg into a square hole when there really isn't a need to.

Yes it would be a shame but like I said earlier in this thread I think he will be hard to ruin. He's that good.

 

[Daximus]

Yes it would be a shame but like I said earlier in this thread I think he will be hard to ruin. He's that good.

Only McDavid level players are ruin proof.

 

[Scuba-Steve]

Only McDavid level players are ruin proof.

Watch the kid play I think you'll understand.

 

[Daximus]

Watch the kid play I think you'll understand.

I have and he's good. But he's not McDavid level.

 

[Scuba-Steve]

I have and he's good. But he's not McDavid level.

Of course not.

And when I say he will be hard to ruin, it's because of the IQ and the way he plays the game. It has nothing to do with how good is he.

 

[Tube Skates]

I think he’s this years Hischier. Drouin will be his Hall

 

[Hostile Offer]

I think he’s this years Hischier. Drouin will be his Hall

He compares quite well to Hischier imo but Drouin's no Hall lol.

 

[PKWeber]

I think he’s this years Hischier. Drouin will be his Hall

No chance, Drouin is overrated and useless 5 on 5.

 

[Nauzhror]

Imagine saying the greatest goalscorer ever, who was picked 1st overall and was built like truck wouldnt score 44g in junior league.

Ovechkin is not necessarily the greatest goal scorer ever. He's great, sure. I wouldn't consider him unanimously superior to people like Gretzky, Lemieux, or Hull though.

Many great players also don't necessarily peak by the age of 17. He might have scored more than 44 goals, but if so not likely significantly more IMO.

 

[M.C.G. 31]

I have to wonder if he looks good because the rest of the roster looks bad or if he actually is ready. I think there are similar things going on in Edmonton with Bouchard and McLeod. Don't confuse being NHL ready with being better than the older alternatives. Just because they are looking better than your vet alternatives doesn't mean they are ready for the NHL full time.

Montreal is rebuilding there is zero need to rush a kid to the NHL. Sure give him a few games but if he isn't playing well he should be sent down. And by well I don't just mean treading water. A top pick is NHL ready when they are competing and putting up points, not just weathering the storm.

If the first part were true he wouldn't have looked good in his first true NHL challenge against Matthews/Tavares. Even Leaf fans were praising him.

The kid is clearly good enough based off his IQ alone. Ideally he gets his 9 game taste and is sent back to Finland to play, bulk up and come back next season completely ready. Of course, he could absolutely prove he belongs in his 9 game taste and force the Habs to keep him around all year for all we know. The kid is really, really good.

 

[montreal]

Dude just because Mcarron sucked doesn't mean a single thing wrt to Kotkaniemi. The kid is keeping up with the best players in the NHL physically and mentally. If that continues there is no rational way to explain sending him home to coddle his development.

As for the Habs skating coach, as far as I know teams will hire these kinds of technical instructors in the summer for development camps and such, and they will give the athletes the curriculum needed to improve in areas like skating. I really have no clue if they keep them on staff throughout the year but i bet they are easily accesible for any Habs player. If kotka needs a dedicated, top notch skating coach, the habs will help him with that more than Pori. No questuon.

Guess what he'll be doing a heck of a lot of in said 82 game NHL schedule??Skating!

You don't see the irony of it saying that the NHL has the best skating coaches but they weren't able to help McCarron so he had to hire his own. Does that sound like the best skating coach? But if not McCarron how about Galchenyuk? He's not the best skater yet the best skating coach couldn't improve his skating enough.

I think it's a cop out to say that just because he's on the Habs he'll have the best skating coach when clearly guys with skating issues haven't improved that much.

As for Kotka, he's not doing anything yet, preseason doesn't count. We'll see what he does when the games count. But it's not like management has a good track record in making smart decisions with prospects development so it's fair imo to be concerned that they will make another mistake. It's not coddling him, it's looking at the big picture and wanting the best for him down the road not in a year when the Habs will suck and likely be among the 10 worst teams in the league.

As for playing in the NHL and doing more skating there, that's not 100% true, yes if he played all 82 games that would be more then Liiga but how much ice time would he get, how much practice time would he get? In Liiga he won't have to spend so much time traveling, flying, trying to keep his weight up since it will be the first time playing so many games and it's a physical grind over the long season. Then there's playing center when he hasn't played much of it last year, while in the NHL in front of the most rabid fanbase and media in the NHL.

I can understand why people want to see him in the NHL, but just because others don't, doesn't mean they are wrong.

 

[ookhaab]

Ovechkin is not necessarily the greatest goal scorer ever. He's great, sure. I wouldn't consider him unanimously superior to people like Gretzky, Lemieux, or Hull though.

Many great players also don't necessarily peak by the age of 17. He might have scored more than 44 goals, but if so not likely significantly more IMO.

Him being the best or the 2nd best or 3rd best is irrelevant.

Also, why the f*** do you even compare Ovechkin's draft -1 season to Zadina's draft season??????

Man you need to check your facts lmao

 

[HankyZetts]

You don't see the irony of it saying that the NHL has the best skating coaches but they weren't able to help McCarron so he had to hire his own. Does that sound like the best skating coach? But if not McCarron how about Galchenyuk? He's not the best skater yet the best skating coach couldn't improve his skating enough.

...

I can understand why people want to see him in the NHL, but just because others don't, doesn't mean they are wrong.

Ok, how about I rephrase and say "I bet the best skating coaches, relating to hockey, work in North America; and being in Pori won't give him more access to them"? I'd also think that most NHL teams have and facilitate access to the best of them.

Are we really saying that Chucky and Mccarron would be better skaters today had they played in Finland for a season before cracking the NHL?

I don't think you are wrong, I just think that I am right haha.

Cheers!

 

[Legend123]

You don't see the irony of it saying that the NHL has the best skating coaches but they weren't able to help McCarron so he had to hire his own. Does that sound like the best skating coach? But if not McCarron how about Galchenyuk? He's not the best skater yet the best skating coach couldn't improve his skating enough.

I think it's a cop out to say that just because he's on the Habs he'll have the best skating coach when clearly guys with skating issues haven't improved that much.

As for Kotka, he's not doing anything yet, preseason doesn't count. We'll see what he does when the games count. But it's not like management has a good track record in making smart decisions with prospects development so it's fair imo to be concerned that they will make another mistake. It's not coddling him, it's looking at the big picture and wanting the best for him down the road not in a year when the Habs will suck and likely be among the 10 worst teams in the league.

As for playing in the NHL and doing more skating there, that's not 100% true, yes if he played all 82 games that would be more then Liiga but how much ice time would he get, how much practice time would he get? In Liiga he won't have to spend so much time traveling, flying, trying to keep his weight up since it will be the first time playing so many games and it's a physical grind over the long season. Then there's playing center when he hasn't played much of it last year, while in the NHL in front of the most rabid fanbase and media in the NHL.

I can understand why people want to see him in the NHL, but just because others don't, doesn't mean they are wrong.

wow you really are a strange pessimistic habs fan.
When kotka struggles in rookie camp (or other rookies) --> seems like a poor pick
When Kotka excels in preseason --> its just preseason so it means nothing.
Lmao! How can he excelling vs NHL players after just turning 18 years of age mean nothing?? its very impressive and bodes well for the future.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Him being the best or the 2nd best or 3rd best is irrelevant.

Also, why the **** do you even compare Ovechkin's draft -1 season to Zadina's draft season??????

Man you need to check your facts lmao

The argument is just kinda bad. ''Zadina's gunna score 40 cuz McDavid n Ovechkin.''

...right.

 

[Hfbsux]

wow you really are a strange pessimistic habs fan.
When kotka struggles in rookie camp (or other rookies) --> seems like a poor pick
When Kotka excels in preseason --> its just preseason so it means nothing.
Lmao! How can he excelling vs NHL players after just turning 18 years of age mean nothing?? its very impressive and bodes well for the future.

"Kotkaniemi is a big time reach at 3"

"Kotkaniemi's skating is bad"

"Kotkaniemi is a long term project. He will only be ready in 2 or 3 years"

All the kid did since being drafted was proving people wrong (me included). So yeah I got my lesson, I'm not gonna doubt him again, but that's just me.

 

[ColbyChaos]

I genuinely don't see why anyone would doubt Zadina scores 40.

If you meant this year, sure, okay, I agree. But I'm interpreting your comment to mean you believe he never hits 40 goals at any point in his career, and that seems bizarre to me.

8 players scored 40 goals last season:

Ovechkin, Laine, Karlsson, Malkin, Staal, McDavid, Seguin, Lee.

Zadina got 44 goals in the QMJHL last season. He was 17 at the start of the season.

Ovechkin got 8 goals in 40 games in Russia at the same age. Ovechkin didn't touch the NHL till age 20, at which point he got 52 goals in his rookie season. Hard to know what he'd have gotten in the QMJHL at age 17, but I doubt it'd have been higher than 44 goals if he only managed 8 in RSL.

Yes because the QMJHL is a miles better league than the Russian professional Mens League

Also there was this whole lockout thing which prevented Malkin and Ovechkin from entering the league so there is no point in trying to paint them as not good enough to make the league in their D+1 years when there was no NHL play for an entire season.

 

[Number 57]

But it's not like management has a good track record in making smart decisions with prospects development so it's fair imo to be concerned that they will make another mistake.

That's not entirely true. Whenevr a player sticks with Montreal and doesn't go to their AHL affiliate they usually have a lot of success. It's the players that go down that can't do anything and don't developp properly.

In recent years:
Victor Mete - no time spent in AHL, trending very well already a top-4 D
Noah Juulsen - only half a season in AHL, sticking in Montreal, looks to be a potential top-4 D
Brendan Gallagher - only half a season in AHL, 1st line NHLer
Artturi Lehkonen - no time spent in AHL, top-6 NHLer
Alex Galchenyuk - spent no time in AHL, legit top-6 NHL talent

FAIL:
Jacob De La Rose - spent parts of 3 seasons in AHL, could never developp an offensive game
Charles Hudon - 3 seasons in AHL, still cannot cement a spot on Habs' top 3 lines
Nikita Scherbak - 3 seasons in AHL, still cannot cement a spot in Montreal
Brett Lernout - 3 seasons in AHL, unclaimed on waivers last week
Daniel Carr - 4 seasons in AHL, management let him go UFA
Michael McCarron - 3 seasons in AHL, still can't stick in NHL, unclaimed on waivers
Zach Fucale - 3 seasons in AHL, has never developped

Kotkaniemi seems like he's going to belong to the first group. Anytime they decide to ''rush'' prospects it turns out great. They have good judgement for that stuff.

Also there is 2 first rounders and 2 high second rounders in the ''fail'' category, whereas 3 out of 5 in the ''good'' category were not even 1st rounders.

 

[Favster]

That's not entirely true. Whenevr a player sticks with Montreal and doesn't go to their AHL affiliate they usually have a lot of success. It's the players that go down that can't do anything and don't developp properly.

In recent years:
Victor Mete - no time spent in AHL, trending very well already a top-4 D
Noah Juulsen - only half a season in AHL, sticking in Montreal, looks to be a potential top-4 D
Brendan Gallagher - only half a season in AHL, 1st line NHLer
Artturi Lehkonen - no time spent in AHL, top-6 NHLer
Alex Galchenyuk - spent no time in AHL, legit top-6 NHL talent

FAIL:
Jacob De La Rose - spent parts of 3 seasons in AHL, could never developp an offensive game
Charles Hudon - 3 seasons in AHL, still cannot cement a spot on Habs' top 3 lines
Nikita Scherbak - 3 seasons in AHL, still cannot cement a spot in Montreal
Brett Lernout - 3 seasons in AHL, unclaimed on waivers last week
Daniel Carr - 4 seasons in AHL, management let him go UFA
Michael McCarron - 3 seasons in AHL, still can't stick in NHL, unclaimed on waivers
Zach Fucale - 3 seasons in AHL, has never developped

Kotkaniemi seems like he's going to belong to the first group. Anytime they decide to ''rush'' prospects it turns out great. They have good judgement for that stuff.

Also there is 2 first rounders and 2 high second rounders in the ''fail'' category, whereas 3 out of 5 in the ''good'' category were not even 1st rounders.

Good post. I have a feeling this will change with the new coaching staff in Laval.

 

[justafan22]

Reminds me of Scheifele in 2011, get his 9 games, then go down.

 

[montreal]

Ok, how about I rephrase and say "I bet the best skating coaches, relating to hockey, work in North America; and being in Pori won't give him more access to them"? I'd also think that most NHL teams have and facilitate access to the best of them.

Are we really saying that Chucky and Mccarron would be better skaters today had they played in Finland for a season before cracking the NHL?

I don't think you are wrong, I just think that I am right haha.

Cheers!

So who's the Habs skating coach then? And why didn't he do a better job improving the skating of Galchenyuk, McCarron, Hudon, etc...

My point is just because it's the NHL, doesn't mean they have the best or know what's best or the Habs wouldn't be in this mess to begin with.

I do think that if we had different management and coaching over the past several years, ones that view development differently, then yes I think Galchenyuk and McCarron would have been better off along with others.

If it were me, the day after I drafted Kotka i would have hired him a skating coach and had him work all summer with him in Finland, while also having someone there to work with him to train physically, what to eat, etc... He's our best hope for the future, why risk rushing that when you can just take a year to see how much he can improve his skating.

wow you really are a strange pessimistic habs fan.
When kotka struggles in rookie camp (or other rookies) --> seems like a poor pick
When Kotka excels in preseason --> its just preseason so it means nothing.
Lmao! How can he excelling vs NHL players after just turning 18 years of age mean nothing?? its very impressive and bodes well for the future.

Show me where i said it was a poor pick. And preseason doesn't mean anything cause the vets aren't going all out. If the preseason meant something Jan Bulis would still be in the league. He's a 3rd OA pick, he's supposed to be impressing, that's why they picked him.

Sorry if I just want him away from this management team and for once for the Habs to stop rushing their prospects under MB. I heard the same things with Galchenyuk, he looks so good, his skating isn't a problem, he's going to be great. Not comparing them, just that when you continue to repeat your mistakes in development, why not rethink your approach, where's the harm in that?

That's not entirely true. Whenevr a player sticks with Montreal and doesn't go to their AHL affiliate they usually have a lot of success. It's the players that go down that can't do anything and don't developp properly.

In recent years:
Victor Mete - no time spent in AHL, trending very well already a top-4 D
Noah Juulsen - only half a season in AHL, sticking in Montreal, looks to be a potential top-4 D
Brendan Gallagher - only half a season in AHL, 1st line NHLer
Artturi Lehkonen - no time spent in AHL, top-6 NHLer
Alex Galchenyuk - spent no time in AHL, legit top-6 NHL talent

Mete/Juulsen in 73 games combined have 1 goal between them. The Habs have the worst blueline in the NHL, so it's a little early to say what they are. They were both rushed to the NHL so we don't know how that's going to impact their upside.

Lehkonen had 21 pts last year and has never played in the top 6, I like him a lot and think that he's one of the few prospects the Habs have done a good job with. Hudon's another one as he's the only one they bothered to take their time with.

Galchenyuk was a 3rd OA and put up sick numbers in the OHL, he was NOT developed well here at all. Putting him on the 4th line last year, putting him with DLR at times, granted he had his own problems but clearly things did not go as hoped there. Management's track record with developing players under MB, MT, Lefebvre, is terrible. I don't know how anyone has faith/trust in them.

 

[Wats]

That's not entirely true. Whenevr a player sticks with Montreal and doesn't go to their AHL affiliate they usually have a lot of success. It's the players that go down that can't do anything and don't developp properly.

In recent years:
Victor Mete - no time spent in AHL, trending very well already a top-4 D
Noah Juulsen - only half a season in AHL, sticking in Montreal, looks to be a potential top-4 D
Brendan Gallagher - only half a season in AHL, 1st line NHLer
Artturi Lehkonen - no time spent in AHL, top-6 NHLer
Alex Galchenyuk - spent no time in AHL, legit top-6 NHL talent

FAIL:
Jacob De La Rose - spent parts of 3 seasons in AHL, could never developp an offensive game
Charles Hudon - 3 seasons in AHL, still cannot cement a spot on Habs' top 3 lines
Nikita Scherbak - 3 seasons in AHL, still cannot cement a spot in Montreal
Brett Lernout - 3 seasons in AHL, unclaimed on waivers last week
Daniel Carr - 4 seasons in AHL, management let him go UFA
Michael McCarron - 3 seasons in AHL, still can't stick in NHL, unclaimed on waivers
Zach Fucale - 3 seasons in AHL, has never developped

Kotkaniemi seems like he's going to belong to the first group. Anytime they decide to ''rush'' prospects it turns out great. They have good judgement for that stuff.

Also there is 2 first rounders and 2 high second rounders in the ''fail'' category, whereas 3 out of 5 in the ''good'' category were not even 1st rounders.

Hudon is one of the few bright spots amateur development wise this team has...

 

[1972]

If he hits you have a Mark Scheifele type elite centre for a long time, if he kinda stagnates a bit I think you still have a bonified two way top 2 line centre. I don’t think he’s ever worse then a second line centre.