C/W Brad Lambert (2022, 30th, WPG) Part 3

[Czechboy]

Fins had a great class of prospects in the mid-2010s for sure, though it is curious how many of them did not live up to their draft billing.

True.. but I don't think they are disproportionate to the other nations and their picks... draft is a crapshoot.

You didn't say it (see it below) but I also don't consider guys like JP, Kakko and Kontkiniemi busts. If they are back in Europe like Honka then I'll call them a bust. JP being the closest but let's see what change of scenery does first (eg. Zacha is on a career year after being labelled a bust). Sometimes the change of scenery works.

 

[forever1922]

Finnish top 5 picks the past 5 drafts:
2016
Laine 2OA (hit)
Pool party 4OA (bust)

2017
Miro Heiskanen 3OA (hit)

2018
Jesperi Kotkaniemi 3OA (bust)

2019
Kaapo Kakko 2OA (bust)

Not impressed

What was the point of this derailing line?

Half the people you consider busts are actually very valuable to each franchise. I get that you don't seem to take it too well that finnish league had the 1st overall this year and might again in '24 but this was about Lambert.

Drafting Lambert was a risk and we still have no idea if it will pay out huge or be a complete waste.

 

[Jukurit]

Finnish top 5 picks the past 5 drafts:
2016
Laine 2OA (hit)
Pool party 4OA (bust)

2017
Miro Heiskanen 3OA (hit)

2018
Jesperi Kotkaniemi 3OA (bust)

2019
Kaapo Kakko 2OA (bust)

Not impressed

So what you're saying is that Lambert will be a bust too.

 

[BusQuets]

Weird that the best thing for a Finnish players development had been to get him away from Finland

Has it? Kotkaniemi and Puljujarvi scored at great rate as a 18 year olds in nhl after developing in Liiga but their NHL teams did not do great with their development.

Guys like Aho, Rantanen, Heiskanen and Hintz for example had extra seasons in Liiga before going to NHL and are doing better because of it.

Everyone could see Lambert wasn't working in Liiga and should have been playing against his peers. Seems to be on the right track now. Should at least make a NHL career with his skating and shot but might have to get in more Defensive mindset if it's not enough for top6 like Kasperi Kapanen who has similar skill set.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

2 more assists today, up to 19p in 12gp.

His vision and playmaking ability are so incredibly underrated.

 

[Buffdog]

2 more assists today, up to 19p in 12gp.

His vision and playmaking ability are so incredibly underrated.

Impossible. The Finnish posters all said he has no hockey IQ

 

[William H Bonney]

Impossible. The Finnish posters all said he has no hockey IQ

Or taking a big step down in competition is helpful for a player's point totals?

 

[Buffdog]

Or taking a big step down in competition is helpful for a player's point totals?

Someone who has no hockey IQ has no hockey IQ regardless of the competition. Someone who has it at one level has it at any level.

The way to develop a player is to have them become comfortable making decisions at one level until they become automatic, then move them up to the next level and let it happen there. Then the next level, etc...

The finns skipped a bunch of levels with Lambert (for whatever reason, pronably including his father's input). Instead of realizing that, the Finnish fans on here just shit on him for not being able to do it at a level vs grown men when he was 16.

 

[William H Bonney]

Someone who has no hockey IQ has no hockey IQ regardless of the competition. Someone who has it at one level has it at any level.

The way to develop a player is to have them become comfortable making decisions at one level until they become automatic, then move them up to the next level and let it happen there. Then the next level, etc...

The finns skipped a bunch of levels with Lambert (for whatever reason, pronably including his father's input). Instead of realizing that, the Finnish fans on here just shit on him for not being able to do it at a level vs grown men when he was 16.

The point isn't that Lambert hasn't been misdeveloped. That's been obvious for years. It's that it shouldn't be surprising that a guy who's been playing at a higher level, even if he wasn't doing so well, is able to produce more against lower-level competition. There are tons of players with limited hockey IQ who can produce at one level and not the next. He should be producing at a high clip in the WHL, even if he has poor hockey IQ. 12 games as a 19-year-old in the WHL doesn't invalidate those concerns.

 

[Buffdog]

The point isn't that Lambert hasn't been misdeveloped. That's been obvious for years. It's that it shouldn't be surprising that a guy who's been playing at a higher level, even if he wasn't doing so well, is able to produce more against lower-level competition. There are tons of players with limited hockey IQ who can produce at one level and not the next. He should be producing at a high clip in the WHL, even if he has poor hockey IQ. 12 games as a 19-year-old in the WHL doesn't invalidate those concerns.

You're missing my point. As we say in science, "absence of proof does not equal proof of absence".

In other words, just because Lambert wasn't able to put it together vs men at 16 doesn't mean he doesn't have the tools to someday put it together vs men if hes developed properly from this point forward. In fact, how many of the 29 guys taken before him in the draft would have had better results vs grown men? Even Slafkovsky had a meh year in Liga with 10 points. He was 1st overall.

 

[William H Bonney]

You're missing my point. As we say in science, "absence of proof does not equal proof of absence".

In other words, just because Lambert wasn't able to put it together vs men at 16 doesn't mean he doesn't have the tools to someday put it together vs men if hes developed properly from this point forward. In fact, how many of the 29 guys taken before him in the draft would have had better results vs grown men? Even Slafkovsky had a meh year in Liga with 10 points. He was 1st overall.

Well acquainted with the principle, but it has no application to what I said. I never claimed it's a foregone conclusion or fact that Lambert doesn't have hockey IQ. Someone posted his point totals. You brought up hockey IQ. I brought up the large drop in competition level. The expectation of certain evidence (i.e., a talented 19-year-old playing against lower competition may lead to improved point totals) was my point. I'm not saying because of the lower-level competition he, therefore, has no hockey IQ; just pointing out other considerations at play.

Nonetheless, while I'm not a fan of Lambert's, I certainly hope he proves me wrong.

 

[Buffdog]

Well acquainted with the principle, but it has no application to what I said. I never claimed it's a foregone conclusion or fact that Lambert doesn't have hockey IQ. Someone posted his point totals. You brought up hockey IQ. I brought up the large drop in competition level. The expectation of certain evidence (i.e., a talented 19-year-old playing against lower competition may lead to improved point totals) was my point. I'm not saying because of the lower-level competition he, therefore, has no hockey IQ; just pointing out other considerations at play.

Nonetheless, while I'm not a fan of Lambert's, I certainly hope he proves me wrong.

So why is the "expectation of certain evidence" different than other kids form his draft year? That's my point. Had he been in the CHL all along like his peers, we wouldn't even be having the "I'm not a fan of lambert's" convo because you'd never have seen the shit that you shouldn't have seen anyway

 

[William H Bonney]

So why is the "expectation of certain evidence" different than other kids form his draft year? That's my point. Had he been in the CHL all along like his peers, we wouldn't even be having the "I'm not a fan of lambert's" convo because you'd never have seen the shit that you shouldn't have seen anyway

Where did I say it's different than other kids from his draft year? You're trying t counteract a point I haven't made. Chaz Lucius dropped from the AHL to the WHL and produced at a Connor Bedard clip. The expectation of certain evidence applies to him, too.

Now talk about an "absence of proof does not equal proof of absence" stance.

 

[Buffdog]

Where did I say it's different than other kids from his draft year? You're trying t counteract a point I haven't made. Chaz Lucius dropped from the AHL to the WHL and produced at a Connor Bedard clip. The expectation of certain evidence applies to him, too.

Now talk about an "absence of proof does not equal proof of absence" stance.

You mentioned "improved point totals". That's the nitpick

The only reason they're "improved" is because he's played against superior competition his whole life.

My point is that instead of saying his point totals have "improved", just compare what they are vs his peers that have always played major junior. Your opinion of him was obviously formed prior to him playing in the WHL. Maybe it's time to re-evaluatenl that

 

[William H Bonney]

You mentioned "improved point totals". That's the nitpick

The only reason they're "improved" is because he's played against superior competition his whole life.

My point is that instead of saying his point totals have "improved", just compare what they are vs his peers that have always played major junior. Your opinion of him was obviously formed prior to him playing in the WHL. Maybe it's time to re-evaluatenl that

Yes, I know. I was the one that pointed out the change in competition.

You can surely make that comparison if you'd like.

Of course my opinion of him was formed before he played in the WHL. He's played 12 WHL games. 12. I'm all for changing my opinion on him. Never claimed it was immovable. But it should rightfully take a larger sample size than 12 games.

 

[Buffdog]

Yes, I know. I was the one that pointed out the change in competition.

You can surely make that comparison if you'd like.

Of course my opinion of him was formed before he played in the WHL. He's played 12 WHL games. 12. I'm all for changing my opinion on him. Never claimed it was immovable. But it should rightfully take a larger sample size than 12 games.

I just think it's unfair to hold shit against him when comparing him to other players when those guys weren't in the same position he was in. Now that they're all in the same position, the only information you have to go on when it comes to comparing apples to apples is those 12 games but you're minimizing that due to sample size for cognitive dissonance'e sake

 

[William H Bonney]

I just think it's unfair to hold shit against him when comparing him to other players when those guys weren't in the same position he was in. Now that they're all in the same position, the only information you have to go on when it comes to comparing apples to apples is those 12 games but you're minimizing that due to sample size for cognitive dissonance'e sake

Applying a sound approach to basic statistics is not cognitive dissonance.

It is absolutely not unfair to evaluate players based on the body of their work. No players are in the same position. He's in the same league now as a couple of relevant 2021 draftees for comparison's sake. That's about the extent of the "same position" you can apply.

You should look at all evidence at hand to help form your opinion.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Yes, I know. I was the one that pointed out the change in competition.

You can surely make that comparison if you'd like.

Of course my opinion of him was formed before he played in the WHL. He's played 12 WHL games. 12. I'm all for changing my opinion on him. Never claimed it was immovable. But it should rightfully take a larger sample size than 12 games.

He's been visibly dominant. The numbers very much match the eye test. Honestly he should probably have more points.

 

[LaMasquerade]

Wonderful to see he's got his confidence back. Looks (from those small glimpses in this thread) that his shot has improved!

BTW. Info for you "scientists": Even if half a dozen or so vocal Finnish HFBoard members criticize Lambert, it doesn't mean that Finns hate him . He is very much liked here and has got quite positive press etc.
Sure there were concerns especially after his 17/18y season (december birthday) that was considerably worse than his 16/17y season, but nice to see him turn that trajectory around.

 

[majormajor]

This much has been obvious to me for awhile:

Lambert needed to go down to the junior level for a year or two.

He would dominate a league like the WHL. No surprises.

We aren't going to get a real test of his development until he goes back up to the pro level, in a year or two. Until then we don't know whether he'll handle processing the game vs mature defenses better than he used to.

 

[Jukurit]

The finns skipped a bunch of levels with Lambert (for whatever reason, pronably including his father's input). Instead of realizing that, the Finnish fans on here just shit on him for not being able to do it at a level vs grown men when he was 16.

Lambert skipping levels was Lambert's own fault. They left HIFK because HIFK wasn't willing to give guaranteed Liiga minutes to Brad and instead went to JYP. JYP finished last in Liiga with a terrible season, so that worked out great. lol

Also still, biggest problem with Lambert was that he just couldn't improve at all in 2 years. Same mistakes over and over and over and over again. It's not that he sucked when he was 16. It's that he still kept sucking when he was 17. And kept sucking when he was 18.

 

[Halfy]

Another 2 goals so far today. Playing one of the worst teams in the league helps. Nice to see him feel the puck going in the net a lot…I’m sure that’s something he sorely needed

 

[macbowes]

Left the game after the second period, but Lambert was dominant. The best player of the game in my opinion was Gracyn Sawchyn, with skating comparable to Lambert. The Royals are tiny and slow though, so it's not really a fair fight.

 

[snowkiddin]

Wonderful to see he's got his confidence back. Looks (from those small glimpses in this thread) that his shot has improved!

BTW. Info for you "scientists": Even if half a dozen or so vocal Finnish HFBoard members criticize Lambert, it doesn't mean that Finns hate him . He is very much liked here and has got quite positive press etc.
Sure there were concerns especially after his 17/18y season (december birthday) that was considerably worse than his 16/17y season, but nice to see him turn that trajectory around.

I think it’s hard for a lot of Jets fans to believe that when during the last summer in Lambert’s thread on our board a lot of us were being positive and hoping for the best (like pretty much everyone on HF does when their team drafts someone new) and we were constantly met by a select few Finnish posters who would vociferously and repeatedly argue how much Lambert sucks.

I mean, saying “Hopefully Lambert can develop into a top sixer for us” was met with “No way, José, he has very bad, like awful, like stinky poo poo, hockey IQ. He’s so dumb he won’t make it!”

Basically every post was followed by a Finnish poster saying “nah, he sucks” but then the same Finnish posters would claim “yeah I think he’s worthless but still rooting for him!”

It got tiresome and it felt disingenuous when they’d say they were rooting for him after spending a dozen pages telling us how much he sucks.

I should clarify, I’m not talking about you or even anyone posting recently in this thread, I’m just hoping to share some perspective about why some Jets fans are perhaps a bit more guarded and defensive when discussing Lambert here.

 

[Czechboy]

I think it’s hard for a lot of Jets fans to believe that when during the last summer in Lambert’s thread on our board a lot of us were being positive and hoping for the best (like pretty much everyone on HF does when their team drafts someone new) and we were constantly met by a select few Finnish posters who would vociferously and repeatedly argue how much Lambert sucks.

I mean, saying “Hopefully Lambert can develop into a top sixer for us” was met with “No way, José, he has very bad, like awful, like stinky poo poo, hockey IQ. He’s so dumb he won’t make it!”

Basically every post was followed by a Finnish poster saying “nah, he sucks” but then the same Finnish posters would claim “yeah I think he’s worthless but still rooting for him!”

It got tiresome and it felt disingenuous when they’d say they were rooting for him after spending a dozen pages telling us how much he sucks.

I should clarify, I’m not talking about you or even anyone posting recently in this thread, I’m just hoping to share some perspective about why some Jets fans are perhaps a bit more guarded and defensive when discussing Lambert here.

Go to the international forum after a Skoda Cup loss from Finland... think I know which posters you are talking about.lol